comment by StringerBell (U11749)

posted 1 minute ago

remeber that Fergie took over United when he was 45. Paisley took over Liverpool when he was 55. So straight away that's an extra 10 years for Fergie to win trophies....

Remember SAF was banned from Europe for his 1st four seasons..unlike Paisley...
we could skew facts all day, but we all agree they are two great managers..
Just SAF is better..

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He may have been banned from europe, but seeing as he won feck all for 5 years at united i dont think it matters overly much? does it ?

Also who is skewing ANY facts?

i have extrapolated data, this is done in all walks of life every day to make decisions, from sales and marketing, to the weather, to the bank interest rate

almost everything in life is based on extrapolated data and its NOW that utd fans choose to go against it !!

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Ohh, calm down loyaute... Why so rude?
You just realised the flaw in your flimsy win rate point, you're desperately hanging onto....
Ha ha... It is what it is... Paisley is still a great manger, don't you worry your little head.

remeber that Fergie took over United when he was 45. Paisley took over Liverpool when he was 55. So straight away that's an extra 10 years for Fergie to win trophies....

Remember SAF was banned from Europe for his 1st four seasons..unlike Paisley...
we could skew facts all day, but we all agree they are two great managers..
Just SAF is better..
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I wasn't skewing facts at all. The argument for Ferguson being the best manager is the sheer number of trophies he's won because of the length of time he's been in charge. So my point is that Paisley would never have stayed at Liverpool for that long because he was much older when he took the job on in the first place. Unless he stayed until he was 81 it would never happen.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

"Also who is skewing ANY facts?

i have extrapolated data, this is done in all walks of life every day to make decisions, from sales and marketing, to the weather, to the bank interest rate

almost everything in life is based on extrapolated data and its NOW that utd fans choose to go against it !!"

Its a little bit different in this case, you have extrapolated data in order to support a counter factual point. I have no problem with this, counterfactual theories are useful and often interesting, but you should accept the accusation that it isnt fact

You really are a bit simple ain't you loyaute?...

I asked you is RDM a better/successful Manager than Arsene Wenger?
I've made my point about SAF v Paisley. You can keep howling about Paisley and your little maths equation you got... I'll just look at the Trophies...
Good day now...

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

my monkey is fatter and hairier than your monkey. He also speaks Esperanto.

Loyaute... I'll treat you as you deserved to be...
For no reason, you insult me so, sure, I stepped down a few to your level....

Don't care about the O.Ps point, it skews the facts to how you lot wanna see it... But the fact you can't argue, but somehow try... Is 36 > 19...
Nuff said.

"Remember SAF was banned from Europe for his 1st four seasons..unlike Paisley..."

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Why do bell ends keep coming up with inane comments likethis.

Pick any 9 year period from furrgies time at manu, not just when we were banned from Europe, not at the beginning when he'd taken over an 'unsuccessful' manu side, pick ANY 9 year period and compare it to Paisley's.

There's only one winner.

Sir Bob...................

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

There are too many differences in the game since the early 80s to compare these 2 great managers.

But if I had to swing one way it would be towards Paisley I just think in an era not determined by £ for his club to be as dominant at home and in europe as they were is highly understated.

i have extrapolated data, this is done in all walks of life every day to make decisions, from sales and marketing, to the weather, to the bank interest rate

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It's not as simple as that. And you should know that. All variables have to be taken into account, and in all the examples you give - with the exception of the weather (for obvious reasons) - they are.

Back in the late 70s, what if an owner come along who invested millions upon millions in order to challenge the top clubs? Well, that never happened at that specific moment in time. In Ferguson's time, it's happened several times. Blackburn, Chelsea, City. Ferguson has risen to that challenge 3 times and here we are today with United now champions.

Would Paisley have continued his rate of success over a period of 27 years? No one knows. He could have done, in which case there would be no debate at all. Well, unless Ferguson come along and knocked Liverpool of their perch. Then what? Ferguson may not have won as many trophies, but under that scenario he still would have knocked Paisley off his perch. So what to make of that?

Paisley managed over a period of time which is shorter than a footballers career. Ferguson managed over a period of time so extensive that many of his current players weren't even alive when he first took over at United. There are even managers alive today who weren't alive when Ferguson first went into management. Ferguson has had to adapt to changes in the game and he has done so superbly. Liverpool, from Shankly, to Paisley, to Fagan, to Dalgish, encompassed a period of time that was the grand total of 4 years and 10 months longer than Ferguson has been in charge of United. Think about that for a moment. That stat alone is pretty mindblowing.

Why is it mindblowing that someone has a job for 27 years.

Dario gradi was manager/ technical director at Crewe for 28 years. Think about that for a moment. Is that stat alone pretty mindblowing?

Hanging around for a long time doesn't make you the greatest manager.

If Paisley had been 20 years younger when he took over he'd probably have managed for just as long as furrgy.



And no Sir Bob might not have continued his rate of
success over a period of 27 years.


He might have improved on it.................

"Why is it mindblowing that someone has a job for 27 years."

You've completely missed my point. During the time that Shankley, Paisley, Fagan, and Dalglish managed Liverpool, they managed 13 league titles between them. The same amount that Ferguson has won. Paisley benefitted from the work of Shankly, Fagan from the work of Paisley, etc. Ferguson had no such illustrious managerial figures immediately prior to his arrival. A point that simply has to be taken into consideration.

"And no Sir Bob might not have continued his rate of
success over a period of 27 years. He might have imrproved on it"

Not over a period of 27 years. He wasn't alive that long.

Ron Aktinson, a rival manager at West Bromich Albion and Manchester United, perhaps coined the greatest summation of the man: “If Bob Paisley had been on the continent or in America, in whatever capacity or field he worked, and achieved what he achieved, I think he’d be rated higher than the President, the Lord Mayor, the King or the Queen or whatever.”

Ron Atkinson, also known for saying: "He's what is known in some schools as a fking lazy thick ngger"

Look, Paisley was without doubt a great manager. One of the greatest ever to have graced the game. Same can be said for Ferguson.

For me, if you say to someone Liverpool FC - name one person, a lot of people would say Shankly. Others would say Paisley. Say to people Manchester United, a lot of people would say Ferguson. Others would say Busby.

The bottom line is that both clubs have great tradition and historical significance when it comes to football. No matter what anyone says, the achievements of both clubs really is incredible. Both huge clubs. With names attached to them that will resonate throughout the world of football forever. My opinion isn't about belittling Paisley's achievements - I would be a fool to do that. But seriously how do we compare managers from different eras? It's an impossible task, and while we can have an opinion as to who we ourselves regard to be better, that's all it will ever be - an opinion.

I'm not even a United fan. I just recognise that at times it's right just to celebrate or rather admire a persons achievements without the need for putting them up against someone else. For some people, they deserve to be held in their own regard. Paisley was one. Shankly was another. Ferguson is another.

Not over a period of 27 years. He wasn't alive that long.

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If he ' had been 20 years younger when he took over ' as I stated then yes he would be alive that long........

If if if.

That's the only counter point you have all said and done. Truth is, no one knows.

But to take you up on your point, Paisley wouldn't have taken over Liverpool had he been 20 years younger. The history of your own club - which I'm sure you all too well, will tell you why.

"The only way Paisley can be overlooked for the top spot in the pantheon is on account of inheriting a successful side to start with. Modest to a fault, he credited his predecessor. “Bill Shankly set such a high standard,” he said. “Liverpool have been geared to this sort of thing for 15 years. I have just helped things along.”

However, with the work he put in behind the scenes, particularly his tactical acumen and how he offered a crucial counterpoint to Shankly’s abrasive edge, Paisley was heavily responsible for Liverpool rising out of the old Second Division in the first place. Allied to the incredible success he achieved once he’d taken full control of the team,you have testimony to a quite remarkable football man, who died in 1996, at the age of 77, after Alzheimer’s Disease had cruelly claimed his remarkable set of memories."

Copyright - Paul Tomkins

I think the above gentleman raises a good point in that it was not just Paisley's success as manager which potentially makes him the greatest of all time - but what he put into the club prior to becoming manager.

The club that he took over - yes was in a better position that Fergie when he took over United - but a great part of this was actually down to Paisley himself.

Can you not understand plain English.

I said 'If Paisley had been 20 years younger when he took over '

I was talking about him being theoretically young enough to keep going and not have to retire.

What has that got to do with our history??

Welshy

Another excellent point.

Rob, calm down.

Him being theoretically 20 years younger relates to my "if if if" point.

Paisley worked under Shankly for 15 years. It is a prime example of the boot-room philosophy that Liverpool are renowned for. Take 20 years off Paisley's life, even if theoretically, and you take away a huge and significant part of Paisley's learning process and of course deny a massive part of the philosophy that is attributed to Liverpool's success. In short, your "if if if" scenario, even hypothetically, doesn't hold any water.

So, Paisley learnt his trade under a great man - Shankly - a man who shaped a vision for your club that materialised, both under Shankly's management and several managers who followed him.

Who preceded Ferguson? Who did Ferguson learn his trade from? Ferguson learnt his trade at a tiny club in Scotland, then went on to Aberdeen and took on Celtic and Rangers and beat them into submission. Aberdeen for crying out loud! Paisley took over an established club that was at the top of the game and continued their success. Ferguson created success at Aberdeen and then at United. Would Paisley's record in his nine year managerial career have been as impressive in terms of trophy wins if he had started from a similar position? I don't think it would have been. Had Ferguson started his managerial career at a club that was already one of the best in the league at that time - would he have won more? Yes, I think he would have done.

It's all about context. Recognise that.

And please, don't try to belittle me by coming out with such inane comments such as "Can you not understand English". Such comments are unnecessary. This is a civil debate from where I'm standing. Let's try and keep it that way.