Spain could still get Brazil then?

Yeah if they qualify. Can't see Spain winning the group now after taking a hammering to thier goal difference.

Spain still have the quality to recover but the question is can they recover mentally?

They may have lost their first game in 2010 but they didn't get a hammering like last night, plus the Confeds final might be playing on the minds.

I agree, there has to be big changes.

However, having watched Barcelona lose 7-0 to Bayern a couple of seasons ago; watching Guardiola's Bayern lose 5-0 to Real Madrid this season and then the game last night, the limitations of tiki-taka are arguably being exposed when they come up against quicker and powerful opposition.

We are seeing a shift in power from Tiki-Taka to this quicker, powerful style of play and it will probably be a team who has that pace and power throughout the side that wins the tournament.

Perhaps I am overthinking this, and I do not think tiki-taka is dead, I just think the cyclical nature of football requires progression and that the practice of tiki-taka has become too easily exposed due to the decline of the end-product.

I always found Aragonés' team as superior to both the famous Barcelona team and Del Bosque's Spain team- I would argue that their objectives in retaining possession were somewhat different, as it has evolved into negative possession if that makes sense.

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The problem I see with the current system is that it is simply not productive enough in terms of scoring goals.

That was fine when the likes of Xavi were much better at dictating the game, and the work ethic of Spain's players in reclaiming possession was vastly superior, but now Spain are passing the ball without a clear strategy of what they are trying to do.

When teams are confronting Spain directly the defensive limitations which have arguably always existed are now being exposed, whereas in the past teams could not get the opportunity to expose them. That wasn't because the defence used to be better, it's because the way Spain played as a whole used to be better.

That's true. But I'd say it is also because the defence used to be better. No Puyol, remember.

I guess my point is that no system is perfect, so if the limitations of one system is exposed it doesn't mean it's dead.

When this style of football, as it still does, regularly destroys teams playing on the counter nobody proclaims counter attacking football dead - that would be stupid.

Certain teams are just better than others at playing particular styles and formations. Everyone keeps saying that 442 is dead in England. Yet of the last eight champions in England, only one has played one up top as their main formation - so explain to me how 442 is dead?

It has its limitations, of course, especially in Europe against superior midfield 3's. But it's quite clearly still and effective formation because the teams that have won the title using it have had the players and managers to make it work.

Under Aragones Spain would also turn over possession at times to sit back and counter,but it worked because we were much faster back then. It was Pep really who came possession-obsessed and over-played tiki-taka in his later years imo.

The problem, but also the glory of tiki-taka is that it requires an exceptional set of players to execute it. A number of sides have tried to replicate it to a greater or lesser extent, but none have anywhere near as as successful.

Latter day tiki-taka is only an extreme variant of possession football though; Spain still has the personnel to focus its play around possession, but we have to be pragmatic and move on from a model that brought success due to a unique combination of factors.

Right now we've got a number of problems we need to address. The first two things we need imo is to bring more energy into the team and retreat our defensive line to within reasonable limits. One of the main problems though is that right now we lack speed up front. If we do play a deeper defensive line and want to keep the distance between lines narrow, we need frontmen and wingers who can outsprint an opponent or, if we look to do that via quick passing and one-twos, someone in the middle who can link the play up really fast. Moving forward, Deulofeu, Jesé and Thiago could provide us with these assets.

There's no reason to be downbeat providing we realise and accept that we need to move away from the tiki-taka idea.

Good post, ioag.

I especially agree about the striker. If you had a Torres or Villa from previous tournaments in this team it'd make a huge difference - and this is something not touched upon by people when talking about Spain because everyone is so caught up in the hype around Diego Costa.

I agree, IOAG. People believed that adding a better calibre of recognised striker in Costa would simply solve Spain's problems- but the truth is that he has been playing for an Atlético side who do not play like the International side and thus it was never going to be as simple as that.

I am not sure you need to entirely move away from Tiki-Taka- but there's no need to be dogmatic about it anymore. There's no reason why Spain cannot incorporate different systems to their play depending upon the circumstances in the match because they have the personnel who could adapt in this way.

Yeah the dogmatic approach is spot on.

A more tactically flexible manager would improve Spain no end. Pellegrini would be that man.

Costa isn't such a bad choice if we play to his strengths, and he can counter pretty well too as he can make up in muscle what he lacks in sheer speed, but he has no understanding with our current starters. There was a particular instance last night where he broke free down the left and put in what would've been a very good ball across the edge of the six-yard box, if it hadn't been because both our midfield runners stopped short on the edge of the box waiting for a cut-back.

Blending Costa into the side was always going to bring these difficulties and take a number of matches before those understandings started to develop, but we haven't had the games to do that. Despite his drop in form, I honestly think Negredo should have been our first choice striker in Brazil, but he wasn't even on the plane.

Need Fabregas for that. He's the only midfielder that gets in the box from central areas.

And Mata too.

lol at Spain soz guys

I think you guys are seeing this the wrong way! That Spain team and that Barca team at their peak would still steamroll the same opposition that are destroying them now imo. The problem is not a decline in the tiki taka system and a rise of the more powerful game but instead it is the decline of the players that were so good at playing that system. The system itself has not "been found out" but the players that made it so formidable don't have the legs anymore to execute it as well as they could. Remember Xavi used to cover the 2nd most distance in that Barca team after Alves?! I doubt he covers even half that distance nowadays! What I am saying is at their peak, that Barca team would still be destroying teams today. It is just that the powerful teams have devised ways to exploit the aging legs in that team.

I am not sure you need to entirely move away from Tiki-Taka- but there's no need to be dogmatic about it anymore. There's no reason why Spain cannot incorporate different systems to their play depending upon the circumstances in the match because they have the personnel who could adapt in this way.
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As I said earlier, it's the extreme version we need to move away from, not the general principle of playing possession-based football.

Del Bosque has to be called into question for failing to adapt to our opponents. The belief in tiki-taka was all well and good when the best answer opponents had was to park the bus and pray, but it hasn't been that way for some time now. How can you not expect players like Robben to hurt you if you give them so many yards from which to run at goal? We really did invite trouble.

DK, agreed, in our current squad he and Mata are the ones who make good runs through the middle. Thiago is another, which would be an added bonus to his link up play.

Wump, I don't see how that contradicts anything we've said. Tiki-taka was as effective as it was because we had the staff to do it, but it does require exceptionally suited players. Think that's been clearly established here.

"I always found Aragonés' team as superior to both the famous Barcelona team and Del Bosque's Spain team" - Henrik

This I disagree with, the first part that is. That Barca team was superior to the national team imo. Everytime I catch reruns of their games I am always left in absolute awe! They really were brilliant that team!

I'd like Isco to feature more.

Wump, that's basically what we've been saying.

ioag, yeah Thiago is another. He's an interesting one, though, as we don't know how he'll develop at Bayern and in what role and style.

"Wump, I don't see how that contradicts anything we've said. Tiki-taka was as effective as it was because we had the staff to do it, but it does require exceptionally suited players. Think that's been clearly established here."

OK maybe I have responded to phantom "tiki-taka has been found out" comments. I do agree with the dogmatic approach though. Use the system that best fits the players, not try and fit players in a particular system. The problem Barca and Spain are facing is I think the problem that they really don't know how to play any other way, something they have said so many times themselves. Even when they don't really have the legs to execute it well anymore, they are finding it hard to reinvent themselves to play another system and that is hurting the national side too. So the problem can be fixed by phasing out the Barca players you feel?

I just seen too many comments on the site that powerful play>tiki taka which at the surface may sound true but after a deeper inquest it is just way too simplistic.

How can you not expect players like Robben to hurt you if you give them so many yards from which to run at goal? We really did invite trouble.
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Should have added "and give their passers time to get their heads up and pick their pass." When was the last time we truly pressed throughout a game when we lost possession? I can't even remember.

It's a series of things that feed into each other. We don't press like we did, because we don't play as well in possession - we used to choke our opponents by making them chase the ball with our quick passing. When we lost the ball, we were fresher to press; when they wanted to press, we'd blow the wind out of their sails. Nowadays we lose the ball far more easily in midfield to fresher opponents who in time have more time to pick out their man and put us on the back foot. We expend more energy chasing and our heads and legs aren't as fresh to pass our way out of tight spots.


Wump, imo tiki-taka originally referred to a peculiar brand of extremely quick possession football. For a variety of reasons it has since lost a lot of its original directness. When some people declare the death of tiki-taka, they may simply be referring to the latter extreme form . Others simply haven't got an effing clue of what they're takling about. Given the right set of players, the original tiki-taka could still be quite devastating.

Yeah I've always argued against such logic.

I still see a lot of United fans make such claims. But after seeing our side be comprehensively outplayed in two finals by said system I'm surprised they can still come to such a conclusion.

I can understand Chelsea fans because they've been the scourge of Barcelona.

Wump, imo tiki-taka originally referred to a peculiar brand of extremely quick possession football. For a variety of reasons it has since lost a lot of its original directness. When some people declare the death of tiki-taka, they may simply be referring to the latter extreme form . Others simply haven't got an effing clue of what they're takling about. Given the right set of players, the original tiki-taka could still be quite devastating.
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This is spot on.

That was probably from my comment. What I am saying is that at this moment powerful play is the way to play against tiki-taka given the way the teams who have adopted tiki-taka have taken it to excess. If the likes of Del Bosque or Guardiola tweaked their team in terms of personnel then it could again come out on top.

But right now if the likes of Spain or Bayern Munich do not change then they will continue to be defeated by this style of play- assuming it too remains the same.

I do not believe any system will always be better or worse than another, because the personnel involved within that system will always change. That's why football is great. It's why we very rarely see the top tournaments being retained- and it is only the teams with truly great players who do retain them.

It is down to the players and managers who have evolved the tempo of tiki-taka, some of that has been deliberate in terms of slowing the game down and a lot of it has also been natural as players simply cannot maintain the levels of speed and fitness they used to when tiki-taka was dominating.

Football has always gone in cycles- and that's because it is hard to consistently reinvent yourself. It's even harder at International level when you cannot just address your problems by replacing players with those on the market that do suit your needs.