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comment by Bale's left boot (U17605)
He did lots of bad things, it's why he went to prison, but he's admitted to them and worked to improve the lives of millions of people. That perspective deserves airing too.
=================
Yes of course it does.
Cal - Are you saying it didn't happen? It is like saying the IR A didn't kill anyone.
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I have, serveral times.
Answer this - are you denying Mandela was responsible for killings?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing
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I don't have too many qualms with the use of violence by Mandela's groups. But to simply deny they ever engaged in acts of violence is ridiculous.
I have answered the question. You have yet to.
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mandella looked me in the eye once outside a greasy spoon in charing cross while he was waiting for his ride.
if i'd have asked him something he would have spoken to me
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comment by Super Tottenham. (U9182)
posted 5 seconds ago
I don't have too many qualms with the use of violence by Mandela's groups. But to simply deny they ever engaged in acts of violence is ridiculous.
==========================
Thank you. While I disagree with you on the moral (which is a tough call) that is your opinion, I have no problem with that. At least you’ve got your view coming from a balanced perspective, that is all I’ve questioned.
He was leader and founder of the terrorist wing of the ANC
----
Which came first the ANC or their armed wing?
I wasn't going to wade in to this as I don't know enough about it. But cal you're annoying me by ignoring bluedroog every time he answers your question.
"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists."
That's from http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/
I'll admit it's not the most reliable source but a good summary (read his wiki page but is very long)
This comment is only for cal's info!
There are two ways to look at the bigger picture. One is that if he hadn't had done everything he did, apartheid could still exist (unlikely but possible). So he helped rid the world of an evil. The other is that he did it through violence which shouldn't be celebrated.
I think his ultimate aim and especially everything that he did when in power can only be admired and he has helped change the world for the better. But facts would suggest that the way he initially achieved his aims were pretty appalling. Certainly one of the most influential people to exist.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
It would appear that the j'burg bombing was by Frederick Harris, member of ARM, in 1964, when mandella was in jail. Hmmmm...
If you're a freedom fighter fighting against an oppressive and barbaric state, isn't it inevitable that people will be killed?
Can any of you critics of Mandela name me one political figure in history, apart from maybe Gandhi, who was above killing and violence? There is no one.
MLK's a good shout.
He was never the leader of his nation though.. inspirational, but we'll never know if he would have been as benevolent as Mandela given the chance to lead the reforms in the USA.
bluedroog reeks of a BNP member. It's not terrorism to take up armed force as a last resort against a brutal, immoral, oppressive regime. Put yourself in the shoes of a black south african at that time you ignorant feck. In your ideal world blacks in South Africa would have just accepted that way of life because, it doesn't matter if they are the 80% majority and have to suffer for eternity, as long as white people are living, and living it up ey! That's the priority for you, you deluded piece of scam.
comment by NotSoMagicJuande (U1913)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
I wasn't going to wade in to this as I don't know enough about it. But cal you're annoying me by ignoring bluedroog every time he answers your question.
"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists."
That's from<A href="http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/</A>
I'll admit it's not the most reliable source but a good summary (read his wiki page but is very long)
This comment is only for cal's info!
There are two ways to look at the bigger picture. One is that if he hadn't had done everything he did, apartheid could still exist (unlikely but possible). So he helped rid the world of an evil. The other is that he did it through violence which shouldn't be celebrated.
I think his ultimate aim and especially everything that he did when in power can only be admired and he has helped change the world for the better. But facts would suggest that the way he initially achieved his aims were pretty appalling. Certainly one of the most influential people to exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said that man.
There are a lot of people suggesting Mandela has the record of a saint, but he didn't. There are also a lot of argumentative people who are trying to leverage his history of activism to falsely validate themselves as intellectual radicals by saying he was a bad person who somehow managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the entire world.
The truth is, he was a man who cared passionately about changing the world for good, and he did what he could to achieve that. He did involve himself in some morally questionable activities, but in extreme circumstances people will take extreme courses of action. I'm not saying that is necessarily ok, but you can see a thought process which is not motivated by negative, destructive tendencies.
That cannot be ignored, but the overwhelmingly positive nature of his legacy cannot be disputed. the world lost a brave, visionary leader yesterday, who helped change many millions of lives for the better. those who try to diminish that legacy are both ignorant, unworthy and ill informed.
"...the overwhelmingly positive nature of his legacy cannot be disputed. the world lost a brave, visionary leader yesterday, who helped change many millions of lives for the better. those who try to diminish that legacy are both ignorant, unworthy and ill informed. "
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Nelson Mandela, a sports fan, has departed
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posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
comment by Bale's left boot (U17605)
He did lots of bad things, it's why he went to prison, but he's admitted to them and worked to improve the lives of millions of people. That perspective deserves airing too.
=================
Yes of course it does.
posted on 6/12/13
Cal - Are you saying it didn't happen? It is like saying the IR A didn't kill anyone.
posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
I have, serveral times.
Answer this - are you denying Mandela was responsible for killings?
posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
Go on name one.
posted on 6/12/13
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing
posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
I don't have too many qualms with the use of violence by Mandela's groups. But to simply deny they ever engaged in acts of violence is ridiculous.
posted on 6/12/13
I have answered the question. You have yet to.
posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
mandella looked me in the eye once outside a greasy spoon in charing cross while he was waiting for his ride.
if i'd have asked him something he would have spoken to me
posted on 6/12/13
Reply | Add Comment | Complain | Share
comment by Super Tottenham. (U9182)
posted 5 seconds ago
I don't have too many qualms with the use of violence by Mandela's groups. But to simply deny they ever engaged in acts of violence is ridiculous.
==========================
Thank you. While I disagree with you on the moral (which is a tough call) that is your opinion, I have no problem with that. At least you’ve got your view coming from a balanced perspective, that is all I’ve questioned.
posted on 6/12/13
He was leader and founder of the terrorist wing of the ANC
----
Which came first the ANC or their armed wing?
posted on 6/12/13
I wasn't going to wade in to this as I don't know enough about it. But cal you're annoying me by ignoring bluedroog every time he answers your question.
"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists."
That's from http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/
I'll admit it's not the most reliable source but a good summary (read his wiki page but is very long)
This comment is only for cal's info!
There are two ways to look at the bigger picture. One is that if he hadn't had done everything he did, apartheid could still exist (unlikely but possible). So he helped rid the world of an evil. The other is that he did it through violence which shouldn't be celebrated.
I think his ultimate aim and especially everything that he did when in power can only be admired and he has helped change the world for the better. But facts would suggest that the way he initially achieved his aims were pretty appalling. Certainly one of the most influential people to exist.
posted on 6/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/12/13
It would appear that the j'burg bombing was by Frederick Harris, member of ARM, in 1964, when mandella was in jail. Hmmmm...
posted on 6/12/13
If you're a freedom fighter fighting against an oppressive and barbaric state, isn't it inevitable that people will be killed?
Can any of you critics of Mandela name me one political figure in history, apart from maybe Gandhi, who was above killing and violence? There is no one.
posted on 6/12/13
^^^ Martin Luther King
posted on 6/12/13
MLK's a good shout.
He was never the leader of his nation though.. inspirational, but we'll never know if he would have been as benevolent as Mandela given the chance to lead the reforms in the USA.
posted on 6/12/13
bluedroog reeks of a BNP member. It's not terrorism to take up armed force as a last resort against a brutal, immoral, oppressive regime. Put yourself in the shoes of a black south african at that time you ignorant feck. In your ideal world blacks in South Africa would have just accepted that way of life because, it doesn't matter if they are the 80% majority and have to suffer for eternity, as long as white people are living, and living it up ey! That's the priority for you, you deluded piece of scam.
posted on 6/12/13
comment by NotSoMagicJuande (U1913)
posted 1 hour, 53 minutes ago
I wasn't going to wade in to this as I don't know enough about it. But cal you're annoying me by ignoring bluedroog every time he answers your question.
"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists."
That's from<A href="http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/</A>
I'll admit it's not the most reliable source but a good summary (read his wiki page but is very long)
This comment is only for cal's info!
There are two ways to look at the bigger picture. One is that if he hadn't had done everything he did, apartheid could still exist (unlikely but possible). So he helped rid the world of an evil. The other is that he did it through violence which shouldn't be celebrated.
I think his ultimate aim and especially everything that he did when in power can only be admired and he has helped change the world for the better. But facts would suggest that the way he initially achieved his aims were pretty appalling. Certainly one of the most influential people to exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said that man.
There are a lot of people suggesting Mandela has the record of a saint, but he didn't. There are also a lot of argumentative people who are trying to leverage his history of activism to falsely validate themselves as intellectual radicals by saying he was a bad person who somehow managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the entire world.
The truth is, he was a man who cared passionately about changing the world for good, and he did what he could to achieve that. He did involve himself in some morally questionable activities, but in extreme circumstances people will take extreme courses of action. I'm not saying that is necessarily ok, but you can see a thought process which is not motivated by negative, destructive tendencies.
That cannot be ignored, but the overwhelmingly positive nature of his legacy cannot be disputed. the world lost a brave, visionary leader yesterday, who helped change many millions of lives for the better. those who try to diminish that legacy are both ignorant, unworthy and ill informed.
posted on 6/12/13
"...the overwhelmingly positive nature of his legacy cannot be disputed. the world lost a brave, visionary leader yesterday, who helped change many millions of lives for the better. those who try to diminish that legacy are both ignorant, unworthy and ill informed. "
posted on 6/12/13
Mandela play Fifa?
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