It seems to me that saying a Syrian family leaving because of war are refugees. No one wants to be accused of treating refugees badly.
Renaming them as economic migrants does away with any guilt when refusing entry.
I really think it is as simple as that.
Saying that opther countries, who are often much poorer than us accept them is, at best, unfair.
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 35 minutes ago
General - Afraid not. Mud has himself down as really intelligent and smart when in reality he is an over sensitive plank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay then, I guess that's just his way.
Regarding the EU vote, I've gone from Remain to Leave and then back to Remain. The reason I've been so undecided is because there are points raised by both sides that resonate with me. Last night on TV the Remain's project fear was in full flow, almost as if they're trying to push me back to Leave
I've done my best not to be selfish with my voting preference, but it's a struggle. The main determining factor for me is that Europe prospering, even if we are propping up other poorer member states up, is in everyone's interest long term, especially as they're on our doorstep. That doesn't make me right or wrong, just 1 opinion in a sea of many.
I just hope that after this is over we can move on as a country and people will accept whatever the democratic outcome is, respectful of people's opposing views on a subject so full of variables.
Kung fu
Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact.
As for the links, the first refers to both refugees and migrants and make no mention of where they are from or how they arrived there. It also recommends those in France seek asylum there. Why aren't they?
Re the young footballer good luck to him. Can I ask Kung Fu, having read the article, what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?
"Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact. "
It's for a better/ easier life. Can't blame them really.
It's as if having to leave your country to save your life you should then be forced to stay in a poor country who doesn't really want you.
Choice goes out of the window.
That's the thing Busby. I don'tblame them. I would do exactly the same in their position. I have said this repeatedly.
The only thing me and Kung Fu seem to disagree on is how you define those that leave Syria due to the war (refugee) but chose to go on to pass through several Safe countries to reach the more affluent counties (becoming econmic migrants)
Is it true that Zielinski left the Poland squad to fly to Chelsea for a medical?
52 - of course you shouldn't be forced. But if you decide to leave that safe but poor country you then become an econ,if migrant (as defined by Collins dictionary as a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living)
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 2 minutes ago
Kung fu
Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact.
As for the links, the first refers to both refugees and migrants and make no mention of where they are from or how they arrived there. It also recommends those in France seek asylum there. Why aren't they?
Re the young footballer good luck to him. Can I ask Kung Fu, having read the article, what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahaha
Brilliant!
Yes thats your uninformed and uneducated opinion.
The UN say they are refugees!
"what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?"
They have been given refugee status so they were obviously fleeing war.
Whats the definition of a refugee?
The article made that clear as well...
"But as the years went by and his country descended into war, Mohammed began losing hope that things would ever return to normal."
Do you acknowledge that this boy and his family are refugees RDD, even though they crossed multiple safe countries by foot to end up in Germany?
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 5 minutes ago
That's the thing Busby. I don'tblame them. I would do exactly the same in their position. I have said this repeatedly.
The only thing me and Kung Fu seem to disagree on is how you define those that leave Syria due to the war (refugee) but chose to go on to pass through several Safe countries to reach the more affluent counties (becoming econmic migrants)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope the UN said that family were refugees and so did Germany.
Obviously your definition of what a refugee is supersedes Germany and the UN.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 11 minutes ago
It's as if having to leave your country to save your life you should then be forced to stay in a poor country who doesn't really want you.
Choice goes out of the window.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just a bit sad now isn't it.
He's trying desperately to hold true to what his definition of a refugee is, when it isn't recognised in the real world.
No RDD.. Deciding to leave your safe home country to improve your standard of living is what makes you an economic migrant. Making the decision to flee an unsafe country, includes making the decision of where to flee to.
What exactly was uninformed and uneducated about my last post?
Yes. They are Syrian and therefore cannot be returned by Germany to Syria, but they could be returned to Greece had Germany chosen to do so. As it is Merkel through guilt and against her people's wishes has opened the borders to all meaning.
I asked about their motivation as The following was quite interesting.
It was Ahmad’s dreams of greatness that pushed his father to flee his home. “I left for Ahmad,” says 39-year-old Mohammed. “When the war came I realised there was no future for him in Syria. I didn’t know how long it would all last. He was going to be a sportsman and there would be nothing for him. I thought, he has such a talent, he needs proper training.”
They both have high hopes that one day their hard work will pay off and Ahmad’s skills will catch the eye of a big European club
Im guessing the football coaching on offer in Greece, Hungary, Slovenia or Austria isn't as safe as that on offer in Germany.
52 - imagine you are forced to flee your home country due to the outbreak of war. Is the priority safety or economic advantage?
I find it really difficult to get my head around this economic migrant theory. They are not all backward, illiterate people, indeed many are just like us.
You don't decide to flee when the gunmen are at the end of the street.
They may be a family, of say four one a teacher one a shop worker with two children.
You come to realise that things are getting worse and you will have to leave your home and goods.
Isn't it normal that you would sit down and discuss the best options . What money you have what languages where your relatives are. How to get there.
If you feel your best chance is, say Germany and that is what you try for I don't see how anyone can say your not a refugee but an economic migrant.
And quoting Collins dictionary, without context will never alter that fact.
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 10 minutes ago
What exactly was uninformed and uneducated about my last post?
Yes. They are Syrian and therefore cannot be returned by Germany to Syria, but they could be returned to Greece had Germany chosen to do so. As it is Merkel through guilt and against her people's wishes has opened the borders to all meaning.
I asked about their motivation as The following was quite interesting.
It was Ahmad’s dreams of greatness that pushed his father to flee his home. “I left for Ahmad,” says 39-year-old Mohammed. “When the war came I realised there was no future for him in Syria. I didn’t know how long it would all last. He was going to be a sportsman and there would be nothing for him. I thought, he has such a talent, he needs proper training.”
They both have high hopes that one day their hard work will pay off and Ahmad’s skills will catch the eye of a big European club
Im guessing the football coaching on offer in Greece, Hungary, Slovenia or Austria isn't as safe as that on offer in Germany.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to insult them by implying they risked their child's life in some hope that he may one day become a footballer that's on you.
It's irrelevant though because what ever you THINK the official word is this family that crossed multiple safe countries are refugees.
Now that I have proven that people like that are officially recognised as refugees, will you admit that this family are refugees also?
Nobody has said they are backward or illiterate
To be a refugee you have to be fleeing war or persecution.
Those people entering Germany via Hungary, Serbia and Romania are not fleeing war in Hungary, Serbia and Romania.
They are heading to Germany to improve their standard of living in Hungary, Serbia or Hungary.
The definition of an economic migrant is 'a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living
What part of that are you disputing?
Kung Fu - I am not insulting them. Again, stop being so sensitive. How else can you interpret the dads words ?
I accept that Germany, through guilt and with their own motivations have encouraged refugees to leave their homeland and to make perilous journeys to obtain refugee status in Germany.
Do you accept that legally, Germany could send this family back to Greece ?
The part that says you are an economic migrant if you are fleeing war and choose to go to wherever you think is best for your family. Are you to choose the worst place?
Does the definition say in what circumstances you are moving, if you move from Chad to France you are an economic migrant.
If you are being forced to move because of circumstances you're not.
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 12 minutes ago
Kung Fu - I am not insulting them. Again, stop being so sensitive. How else can you interpret the dads words ?
I accept that Germany, through guilt and with their own motivations have encouraged refugees to leave their homeland and to make perilous journeys to obtain refugee status in Germany.
Do you accept that legally, Germany could send this family back to Greece ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it matter, my only point is that they are refugees which Germany has recognised and so have the UN.
I don't care what you THINK Germany did, they have been recognised as refugees but how can that be rdd??
HOW CAN THAT BE when your very own personalised definition says that they are economic migrants.
You obviously didn't cc in the UN email address when sending out that memo.
The FACT is they are officially refugees, get over it and stop being desperate.
And yes it is a fact. Let that sink in.
It doesn't matter if anyone has said they are illiterate or not. I'm making the point that they are capable of informed decisions.
They are fleeing war and persecution.
They may choose Germany for a variety of reasons, not necessarily connected with money.
You don't know why Germany has invited refugees, that is your interpretation of why, not what Angela Merkel has said. Whether it is against the wishes of the people will be decided at the next election.
52 - the Dublin agreement states they should stay in the first safe place.
And what circumstances are FORCING them to leave Hungary, Serbia or Romania?
Germany being a safe place.
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EU Special
Page 26 of 32
27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31
posted on 22/6/16
It seems to me that saying a Syrian family leaving because of war are refugees. No one wants to be accused of treating refugees badly.
Renaming them as economic migrants does away with any guilt when refusing entry.
I really think it is as simple as that.
Saying that opther countries, who are often much poorer than us accept them is, at best, unfair.
posted on 22/6/16
posted on 22/6/16
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 35 minutes ago
General - Afraid not. Mud has himself down as really intelligent and smart when in reality he is an over sensitive plank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay then, I guess that's just his way.
Regarding the EU vote, I've gone from Remain to Leave and then back to Remain. The reason I've been so undecided is because there are points raised by both sides that resonate with me. Last night on TV the Remain's project fear was in full flow, almost as if they're trying to push me back to Leave
I've done my best not to be selfish with my voting preference, but it's a struggle. The main determining factor for me is that Europe prospering, even if we are propping up other poorer member states up, is in everyone's interest long term, especially as they're on our doorstep. That doesn't make me right or wrong, just 1 opinion in a sea of many.
I just hope that after this is over we can move on as a country and people will accept whatever the democratic outcome is, respectful of people's opposing views on a subject so full of variables.
posted on 22/6/16
Kung fu
Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact.
As for the links, the first refers to both refugees and migrants and make no mention of where they are from or how they arrived there. It also recommends those in France seek asylum there. Why aren't they?
Re the young footballer good luck to him. Can I ask Kung Fu, having read the article, what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?
posted on 22/6/16
"Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact. "
It's for a better/ easier life. Can't blame them really.
posted on 22/6/16
It's as if having to leave your country to save your life you should then be forced to stay in a poor country who doesn't really want you.
Choice goes out of the window.
posted on 22/6/16
That's the thing Busby. I don'tblame them. I would do exactly the same in their position. I have said this repeatedly.
The only thing me and Kung Fu seem to disagree on is how you define those that leave Syria due to the war (refugee) but chose to go on to pass through several Safe countries to reach the more affluent counties (becoming econmic migrants)
posted on 22/6/16
Is it true that Zielinski left the Poland squad to fly to Chelsea for a medical?
posted on 22/6/16
Sorry wrong thread
posted on 22/6/16
52 - of course you shouldn't be forced. But if you decide to leave that safe but poor country you then become an econ,if migrant (as defined by Collins dictionary as a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living)
posted on 22/6/16
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 2 minutes ago
Kung fu
Invited or not, it doesn't alter the fact these people could claim refuge in less affluent countries but instead chose to move on to Germany, Calais and Sweden. Not for fear of the Syrian conflict but for economic / social reasons. I am staggered how you cannot grasp the fact.
As for the links, the first refers to both refugees and migrants and make no mention of where they are from or how they arrived there. It also recommends those in France seek asylum there. Why aren't they?
Re the young footballer good luck to him. Can I ask Kung Fu, having read the article, what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hahaha
Brilliant!
Yes thats your uninformed and uneducated opinion.
The UN say they are refugees!
"what were his parents motivation for leaving Syria and heading to Germany?"
They have been given refugee status so they were obviously fleeing war.
Whats the definition of a refugee?
The article made that clear as well...
"But as the years went by and his country descended into war, Mohammed began losing hope that things would ever return to normal."
Do you acknowledge that this boy and his family are refugees RDD, even though they crossed multiple safe countries by foot to end up in Germany?
posted on 22/6/16
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 5 minutes ago
That's the thing Busby. I don'tblame them. I would do exactly the same in their position. I have said this repeatedly.
The only thing me and Kung Fu seem to disagree on is how you define those that leave Syria due to the war (refugee) but chose to go on to pass through several Safe countries to reach the more affluent counties (becoming econmic migrants)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope the UN said that family were refugees and so did Germany.
Obviously your definition of what a refugee is supersedes Germany and the UN.
posted on 22/6/16
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 11 minutes ago
It's as if having to leave your country to save your life you should then be forced to stay in a poor country who doesn't really want you.
Choice goes out of the window.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just a bit sad now isn't it.
He's trying desperately to hold true to what his definition of a refugee is, when it isn't recognised in the real world.
posted on 22/6/16
No RDD.. Deciding to leave your safe home country to improve your standard of living is what makes you an economic migrant. Making the decision to flee an unsafe country, includes making the decision of where to flee to.
posted on 22/6/16
What exactly was uninformed and uneducated about my last post?
Yes. They are Syrian and therefore cannot be returned by Germany to Syria, but they could be returned to Greece had Germany chosen to do so. As it is Merkel through guilt and against her people's wishes has opened the borders to all meaning.
I asked about their motivation as The following was quite interesting.
It was Ahmad’s dreams of greatness that pushed his father to flee his home. “I left for Ahmad,” says 39-year-old Mohammed. “When the war came I realised there was no future for him in Syria. I didn’t know how long it would all last. He was going to be a sportsman and there would be nothing for him. I thought, he has such a talent, he needs proper training.”
They both have high hopes that one day their hard work will pay off and Ahmad’s skills will catch the eye of a big European club
Im guessing the football coaching on offer in Greece, Hungary, Slovenia or Austria isn't as safe as that on offer in Germany.
posted on 22/6/16
52 - imagine you are forced to flee your home country due to the outbreak of war. Is the priority safety or economic advantage?
posted on 22/6/16
I find it really difficult to get my head around this economic migrant theory. They are not all backward, illiterate people, indeed many are just like us.
You don't decide to flee when the gunmen are at the end of the street.
They may be a family, of say four one a teacher one a shop worker with two children.
You come to realise that things are getting worse and you will have to leave your home and goods.
Isn't it normal that you would sit down and discuss the best options . What money you have what languages where your relatives are. How to get there.
If you feel your best chance is, say Germany and that is what you try for I don't see how anyone can say your not a refugee but an economic migrant.
And quoting Collins dictionary, without context will never alter that fact.
posted on 22/6/16
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 10 minutes ago
What exactly was uninformed and uneducated about my last post?
Yes. They are Syrian and therefore cannot be returned by Germany to Syria, but they could be returned to Greece had Germany chosen to do so. As it is Merkel through guilt and against her people's wishes has opened the borders to all meaning.
I asked about their motivation as The following was quite interesting.
It was Ahmad’s dreams of greatness that pushed his father to flee his home. “I left for Ahmad,” says 39-year-old Mohammed. “When the war came I realised there was no future for him in Syria. I didn’t know how long it would all last. He was going to be a sportsman and there would be nothing for him. I thought, he has such a talent, he needs proper training.”
They both have high hopes that one day their hard work will pay off and Ahmad’s skills will catch the eye of a big European club
Im guessing the football coaching on offer in Greece, Hungary, Slovenia or Austria isn't as safe as that on offer in Germany.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to insult them by implying they risked their child's life in some hope that he may one day become a footballer that's on you.
It's irrelevant though because what ever you THINK the official word is this family that crossed multiple safe countries are refugees.
Now that I have proven that people like that are officially recognised as refugees, will you admit that this family are refugees also?
posted on 22/6/16
Nobody has said they are backward or illiterate
To be a refugee you have to be fleeing war or persecution.
Those people entering Germany via Hungary, Serbia and Romania are not fleeing war in Hungary, Serbia and Romania.
They are heading to Germany to improve their standard of living in Hungary, Serbia or Hungary.
The definition of an economic migrant is 'a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living
What part of that are you disputing?
posted on 22/6/16
Kung Fu - I am not insulting them. Again, stop being so sensitive. How else can you interpret the dads words ?
I accept that Germany, through guilt and with their own motivations have encouraged refugees to leave their homeland and to make perilous journeys to obtain refugee status in Germany.
Do you accept that legally, Germany could send this family back to Greece ?
posted on 22/6/16
The part that says you are an economic migrant if you are fleeing war and choose to go to wherever you think is best for your family. Are you to choose the worst place?
Does the definition say in what circumstances you are moving, if you move from Chad to France you are an economic migrant.
If you are being forced to move because of circumstances you're not.
posted on 22/6/16
comment by Reddevilsdouble - give peace a chance (U12215)
posted 12 minutes ago
Kung Fu - I am not insulting them. Again, stop being so sensitive. How else can you interpret the dads words ?
I accept that Germany, through guilt and with their own motivations have encouraged refugees to leave their homeland and to make perilous journeys to obtain refugee status in Germany.
Do you accept that legally, Germany could send this family back to Greece ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What does it matter, my only point is that they are refugees which Germany has recognised and so have the UN.
I don't care what you THINK Germany did, they have been recognised as refugees but how can that be rdd??
HOW CAN THAT BE when your very own personalised definition says that they are economic migrants.
You obviously didn't cc in the UN email address when sending out that memo.
The FACT is they are officially refugees, get over it and stop being desperate.
And yes it is a fact. Let that sink in.
posted on 22/6/16
It doesn't matter if anyone has said they are illiterate or not. I'm making the point that they are capable of informed decisions.
They are fleeing war and persecution.
They may choose Germany for a variety of reasons, not necessarily connected with money.
You don't know why Germany has invited refugees, that is your interpretation of why, not what Angela Merkel has said. Whether it is against the wishes of the people will be decided at the next election.
posted on 22/6/16
52 - the Dublin agreement states they should stay in the first safe place.
And what circumstances are FORCING them to leave Hungary, Serbia or Romania?
posted on 22/6/16
Germany being a safe place.
Page 26 of 32
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