Talk is cheap.
We do have to honour our past commitments to pensions, but for infra-structure and other previously agreed projects these things are all part of the negotiations. For projects we will have a direct continuing interest in, space and scientific research for example we will pay our way.
I think most EU countries will be pragmatic with the way forward but the French and Belgians are taking it personally, especially as the EU money is a major part of their income and us leaving will seriously effect their budgets, fully expect them to vocalise in a very confrontational way, c'est la vie.
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
Talk is cheap.
We do have to honour our past commitments to pensions, but for infra-structure and other previously agreed projects these things are all part of the negotiations. For projects we will have a direct continuing interest in, space and scientific research for example we will pay our way.
I think most EU countries will be pragmatic with the way forward but the French and Belgians are taking it personally, especially as the EU money is a major part of their income and us leaving will seriously effect their budgets, fully expect them to vocalise in a very confrontational way, c'est la vie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read this the other day, it was quite interesting
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2017/feb/20/what-the-eu27-want-brexit-red-lines-from-the-other-side-of-the-table
Coutinho.
Everyone is self interested, most seem to want their citizens to continue working in the UK so that the monies sent back home can improve their countrys economy, we will be needing workers if all our domestic infra-structure projects (various rail projects/ house building projects even the House of Parliament preservation) so expect the movement of people to be negotiated with the emphasis on benefits, no dole until you've contributed for X period of time.
France seem to be the driving force in punishing us, historically we've hated each other so no biggie, Germanys influence is much more important.
I watched the HoL’s debates last night. They are often maligned but the quality of debate in regard to Brexit was considerably more reasoned and thought out, compared to their colleagues in the other house.
Countless points were raised which the government have yet to give any thought to, never mind make contingency plans. I have a feeling they will propose two amendments to the white paper. Guaranteeing EU Nationals, and parliamentary scrutiny of the a50 process and final deal.
The main issue in regard to a50 however is the timeframe, and the e27 agreeing a settlement within two years.
The EU are notoriously slow, (due to the fact there are 28 states and 38 regional governments to consider) in reaching agreement.
A transitional deal looks a formality. Which hopefully will give all areas of business etc to adapt. The UK has been an EU member for 44 odd years, and I can’t fathom why there are those who want a deal done, (at any cost) without any consideration/valuation/evaluation of its implications.
It’s akin to someone committing to buying a house without even viewing or getting it valued.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-migrants-brexit-workers-eu-uk-stay-open-immigration-years-latest-a7592616.html
Davis says one thing to us Brits and the complete opposite to the Europeans.
Well at least Davis has recognised the truth and gravity of the situation. "Shutting the door" overnight in 2019 would be a) impossible and b) incredibly damaging to many sectors in the economy.
He's gone from saying immigration could reach "zero", then saying "tens of thousands" , now this.
The man hasn't recognised anything. He just spouts the most convenient lie to suit the situation and context.
It's about time some realistic expectations about leaving the EU were aired tbh. It makes you wonder whether people would've voted differently if information re EU migrants and cutting of hospital budgets were known before the vote took place. Obviously it's a redundant point as there's no going back.
We've needed migrants in certain sectors for years, with U.K. workers not willing, able, or both to fill positions. Particularly in catering/hospitality, agriculture etc. What did Leave voters expect, UK workers to suddenly want to go and pick/pack veg destined for supermarkets?
But this was one of the things labelled as 'project fear' and dismissed as coming from experts, who we were sick of.
Davies (like many) has said so many contradictory/conflicting statements on Brexit it’s impossible to keep track. He was pretty much cut to pieces (while not mentioned by name) by the HoL’s.
One of the Lords (Baroness thingamydodarr… ) cited the government’s Great Repel Bill (which looks nearly as complex as Brexit). And in particular environmental laws, which form a quarter of all EU Directives. A third of which cannot simply be copied and pasted into UK law.
Businesses/industry need to know (sometimes years) in advance what environmental policies they have to implement. For example, packaging requirements, construction rules, pollutants, chemicals, fabrics, pesticides, recycling, waste disposal… ) You get the idea but the list is endless.
If say a manufacturer makes a product, and without knowing the environmental laws beforehand, they won’t be able to sell it lawfully.
Even many countries outside of the EU, as most countries adopt EU conformity rules.
This is a massive piece of work, which as noted in the HoL’s last night the government haven’t even began exploring yet.
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stop it is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 6 minutes ago
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stopit is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you read the Home Office migration requirements?
Controls are extremely tight. When the most recent amendment (2014) to the Immigration Act went through Parliament, the government (noting EU requirements) could have made migration even tighter.
But chose not to. And surprise surprise, who was blamed for Parliaments choice?
The EU.
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 17 minutes ago
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stopit is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I should also have mention that the e27 (which Guy Verhofstadt and Junker both acknowledged) assumed equivalence on UK/EU nationals as far back as July 2016.
It was only when David Davies stated the UK intended to use them as "bargaining chips" when things became protracted.
Also worth noting that in two motions in Parliament (a Labour motion last summer, and the current white paper) the Tory party have voted against securing EU nationals security.
This is a problem entirely of the UK's own making.
We already offered to guarantee EU citizens staying here but EU refused to do the same for Brits abroad. So we would be stupid to say they can stay if they won't do the same. But it will be a formality once they start negotiating.
8bit
Who made this offer (guarantee EU citizens staying here) as it wasn’t the UK government?
In two motions, the government have rejected guaranteeing EU Nationals to remain. The latest of which was an amendment to the a50 bill.
This followed the joint committee's recommendations:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news-parliament-2015/eu-residence-rights-article-50-amendment-16-17/
The House of Lords EU Committee also recommended:
"We urge the Government to change its stance and to give a unilateral guarantee now that it will safeguard the EU citizenship rights of all EU nationals in the UK when the UK withdraws from the EU."
Theresa may said a few times, first time was a few days after the vote we will guarantee EU citizens here if they do the same. EU said they will not negotiate anything until we trigger article 50
8bit
Not entirely true.
As far back as last summer the EU Parliament were agreeable to considering ‘associate EU citizenship’ for UK Nationals. Reciprocity was a given as far as the e27 were concerned.
When David Davies subsequently (albeit leaked) statement highlighted the Government planned to exploit EU Nationals as “bargaining chips” this obviously antagonised European counterparts.
Like many of her cabinet, Theresa May has made many contradictory statements. Had there been a desire on her, or her government’s part, to ensure reciprocity, she, and her government, (Ken Clarke aside) would not have voted against it. In two separate motions.
And furthermore ignored the recommendations of the joint select, and HoL’s Brexit committees.
That said, after viewing the HoL’s debates, I believe they will recommend an amendment to the white paper. It would, first and foremost soften relations, which are in everyone’s interests.
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
As far as a50 is concerned, yes no party can negotiate severance until the UK has formally informed the e27 of its intention to leave the EU.
This is binding on both the UK and the EU.
However the crucial point is reciprocity rights of both EU/UK nationals do not even form part of a50. Until Davies statement was leaked, it was a moot point as far as the e27 were concerned.
In the same way Europol, (security arrangements) and Euratom, (atomic energy protections) are EU bodies, they are not a prerequisite of EU membership.
Yet the UK government have chosen to use future security arrangements as leverage, and intend to completely withdraw from Euratom (which is another incomprehensible decision).
a50 is not a particularly large part of the Lisbon Treaty. It’s only five small lines:
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
Is le Pen getting sexier, or is it just me?
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 4 hours, 10 minutes ago
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all quite simple really, eu lets brits stay, then we let europeans stay, if one side wont do it the otherside wont
comment by Adam 'The Interview' Lallana (U20650)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 4 hours, 10 minutes ago
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all quite simple really, eu lets brits stay, then we let europeans stay, if one side wont do it the otherside wont
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think I had mentioned previously but when you look at numbers, (ie nearly full EU national employment in the UK) compared to hundreds of thousands of ex pat (pensioners) in the EU, there will be a quick agreement reached!
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to UK employment stats EU nationals in employment are close to 100%. Which is also supported by Home office, and DWP figures provided to the ONS.
Don't you work in the DWP?
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to UK employment stats EU nationals in employment are close to 100%. Which is also supported by Home office, and DWP figures provided to the ONS.
Don't you work in the DWP?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny thing is you can migrate to somewhere like Spain and still claim a UK state pension, based on NI contributions. Plus any hospital treatment needed is also billed to the NHS.
TBAB is fine with this but not happy with EU nationals working over here and sending money home.
Sign in if you want to comment
Brexit AHHHHHH
Page 141 of 166
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posted on 22/2/17
No
posted on 22/2/17
Talk is cheap.
We do have to honour our past commitments to pensions, but for infra-structure and other previously agreed projects these things are all part of the negotiations. For projects we will have a direct continuing interest in, space and scientific research for example we will pay our way.
I think most EU countries will be pragmatic with the way forward but the French and Belgians are taking it personally, especially as the EU money is a major part of their income and us leaving will seriously effect their budgets, fully expect them to vocalise in a very confrontational way, c'est la vie.
posted on 22/2/17
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
Talk is cheap.
We do have to honour our past commitments to pensions, but for infra-structure and other previously agreed projects these things are all part of the negotiations. For projects we will have a direct continuing interest in, space and scientific research for example we will pay our way.
I think most EU countries will be pragmatic with the way forward but the French and Belgians are taking it personally, especially as the EU money is a major part of their income and us leaving will seriously effect their budgets, fully expect them to vocalise in a very confrontational way, c'est la vie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I read this the other day, it was quite interesting
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2017/feb/20/what-the-eu27-want-brexit-red-lines-from-the-other-side-of-the-table
posted on 22/2/17
Coutinho.
Everyone is self interested, most seem to want their citizens to continue working in the UK so that the monies sent back home can improve their countrys economy, we will be needing workers if all our domestic infra-structure projects (various rail projects/ house building projects even the House of Parliament preservation) so expect the movement of people to be negotiated with the emphasis on benefits, no dole until you've contributed for X period of time.
France seem to be the driving force in punishing us, historically we've hated each other so no biggie, Germanys influence is much more important.
posted on 22/2/17
I watched the HoL’s debates last night. They are often maligned but the quality of debate in regard to Brexit was considerably more reasoned and thought out, compared to their colleagues in the other house.
Countless points were raised which the government have yet to give any thought to, never mind make contingency plans. I have a feeling they will propose two amendments to the white paper. Guaranteeing EU Nationals, and parliamentary scrutiny of the a50 process and final deal.
The main issue in regard to a50 however is the timeframe, and the e27 agreeing a settlement within two years.
The EU are notoriously slow, (due to the fact there are 28 states and 38 regional governments to consider) in reaching agreement.
A transitional deal looks a formality. Which hopefully will give all areas of business etc to adapt. The UK has been an EU member for 44 odd years, and I can’t fathom why there are those who want a deal done, (at any cost) without any consideration/valuation/evaluation of its implications.
It’s akin to someone committing to buying a house without even viewing or getting it valued.
posted on 22/2/17
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-migrants-brexit-workers-eu-uk-stay-open-immigration-years-latest-a7592616.html
Davis says one thing to us Brits and the complete opposite to the Europeans.
posted on 22/2/17
Well at least Davis has recognised the truth and gravity of the situation. "Shutting the door" overnight in 2019 would be a) impossible and b) incredibly damaging to many sectors in the economy.
posted on 22/2/17
He's gone from saying immigration could reach "zero", then saying "tens of thousands" , now this.
The man hasn't recognised anything. He just spouts the most convenient lie to suit the situation and context.
posted on 22/2/17
It's about time some realistic expectations about leaving the EU were aired tbh. It makes you wonder whether people would've voted differently if information re EU migrants and cutting of hospital budgets were known before the vote took place. Obviously it's a redundant point as there's no going back.
We've needed migrants in certain sectors for years, with U.K. workers not willing, able, or both to fill positions. Particularly in catering/hospitality, agriculture etc. What did Leave voters expect, UK workers to suddenly want to go and pick/pack veg destined for supermarkets?
But this was one of the things labelled as 'project fear' and dismissed as coming from experts, who we were sick of.
posted on 22/2/17
Davies (like many) has said so many contradictory/conflicting statements on Brexit it’s impossible to keep track. He was pretty much cut to pieces (while not mentioned by name) by the HoL’s.
One of the Lords (Baroness thingamydodarr… ) cited the government’s Great Repel Bill (which looks nearly as complex as Brexit). And in particular environmental laws, which form a quarter of all EU Directives. A third of which cannot simply be copied and pasted into UK law.
Businesses/industry need to know (sometimes years) in advance what environmental policies they have to implement. For example, packaging requirements, construction rules, pollutants, chemicals, fabrics, pesticides, recycling, waste disposal… ) You get the idea but the list is endless.
If say a manufacturer makes a product, and without knowing the environmental laws beforehand, they won’t be able to sell it lawfully.
Even many countries outside of the EU, as most countries adopt EU conformity rules.
This is a massive piece of work, which as noted in the HoL’s last night the government haven’t even began exploring yet.
posted on 22/2/17
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stop it is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
posted on 22/2/17
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 6 minutes ago
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stopit is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you read the Home Office migration requirements?
Controls are extremely tight. When the most recent amendment (2014) to the Immigration Act went through Parliament, the government (noting EU requirements) could have made migration even tighter.
But chose not to. And surprise surprise, who was blamed for Parliaments choice?
The EU.
posted on 22/2/17
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 17 minutes ago
ffs nobody apart from prob 1% of of nutters thought or wants immigration to stopit is just about control instead of unlimited numbers. EU citizens staying here will be a formality and would have already been sorted if the EU guaranteed Brits rights abroad... but they refused. Anyway it will be a formality, anyone who thinks we will kick out millions of EU citizens is nuts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I should also have mention that the e27 (which Guy Verhofstadt and Junker both acknowledged) assumed equivalence on UK/EU nationals as far back as July 2016.
It was only when David Davies stated the UK intended to use them as "bargaining chips" when things became protracted.
Also worth noting that in two motions in Parliament (a Labour motion last summer, and the current white paper) the Tory party have voted against securing EU nationals security.
This is a problem entirely of the UK's own making.
posted on 22/2/17
We already offered to guarantee EU citizens staying here but EU refused to do the same for Brits abroad. So we would be stupid to say they can stay if they won't do the same. But it will be a formality once they start negotiating.
posted on 22/2/17
8bit
Who made this offer (guarantee EU citizens staying here) as it wasn’t the UK government?
In two motions, the government have rejected guaranteeing EU Nationals to remain. The latest of which was an amendment to the a50 bill.
This followed the joint committee's recommendations:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news-parliament-2015/eu-residence-rights-article-50-amendment-16-17/
The House of Lords EU Committee also recommended:
"We urge the Government to change its stance and to give a unilateral guarantee now that it will safeguard the EU citizenship rights of all EU nationals in the UK when the UK withdraws from the EU."
posted on 22/2/17
Theresa may said a few times, first time was a few days after the vote we will guarantee EU citizens here if they do the same. EU said they will not negotiate anything until we trigger article 50
posted on 22/2/17
8bit
Not entirely true.
As far back as last summer the EU Parliament were agreeable to considering ‘associate EU citizenship’ for UK Nationals. Reciprocity was a given as far as the e27 were concerned.
When David Davies subsequently (albeit leaked) statement highlighted the Government planned to exploit EU Nationals as “bargaining chips” this obviously antagonised European counterparts.
Like many of her cabinet, Theresa May has made many contradictory statements. Had there been a desire on her, or her government’s part, to ensure reciprocity, she, and her government, (Ken Clarke aside) would not have voted against it. In two separate motions.
And furthermore ignored the recommendations of the joint select, and HoL’s Brexit committees.
That said, after viewing the HoL’s debates, I believe they will recommend an amendment to the white paper. It would, first and foremost soften relations, which are in everyone’s interests.
posted on 22/2/17
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
posted on 22/2/17
As far as a50 is concerned, yes no party can negotiate severance until the UK has formally informed the e27 of its intention to leave the EU.
This is binding on both the UK and the EU.
However the crucial point is reciprocity rights of both EU/UK nationals do not even form part of a50. Until Davies statement was leaked, it was a moot point as far as the e27 were concerned.
In the same way Europol, (security arrangements) and Euratom, (atomic energy protections) are EU bodies, they are not a prerequisite of EU membership.
Yet the UK government have chosen to use future security arrangements as leverage, and intend to completely withdraw from Euratom (which is another incomprehensible decision).
a50 is not a particularly large part of the Lisbon Treaty. It’s only five small lines:
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
posted on 22/2/17
Is le Pen getting sexier, or is it just me?
posted on 22/2/17
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 4 hours, 10 minutes ago
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all quite simple really, eu lets brits stay, then we let europeans stay, if one side wont do it the otherside wont
posted on 22/2/17
comment by Adam 'The Interview' Lallana (U20650)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 4 hours, 10 minutes ago
It's true, EU bods have said many times they won't negotiate until article 50. Either way when it comes down to it it will be agreed easily, there is zero chance we will kick out EU citizens already here. Makes no sense for us or them, just more scaremongering.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/deal-citizens-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its all quite simple really, eu lets brits stay, then we let europeans stay, if one side wont do it the otherside wont
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think I had mentioned previously but when you look at numbers, (ie nearly full EU national employment in the UK) compared to hundreds of thousands of ex pat (pensioners) in the EU, there will be a quick agreement reached!
posted on 22/2/17
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
posted on 22/2/17
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to UK employment stats EU nationals in employment are close to 100%. Which is also supported by Home office, and DWP figures provided to the ONS.
Don't you work in the DWP?
posted on 22/2/17
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
Brits abroad work or bring money.....that is the difference.
Lose your job in Spain, Brit comes home, but not the other way around, from experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to UK employment stats EU nationals in employment are close to 100%. Which is also supported by Home office, and DWP figures provided to the ONS.
Don't you work in the DWP?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny thing is you can migrate to somewhere like Spain and still claim a UK state pension, based on NI contributions. Plus any hospital treatment needed is also billed to the NHS.
TBAB is fine with this but not happy with EU nationals working over here and sending money home.
Page 141 of 166
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