comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 5 minutes ago
Is there the possibility BMW will shift the plant they have over here back to Germany?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so, I'd be more inclined to to believe that they would get better deals in the newer EU nations (former Eastern Bloc nations).
I think salaries and other manufacturing costs would be lower than in Germany and the governments would be more open to negotiations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah maybe not move back to Germany, but leave the UK being the pertinent point
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
Deluded, the only people I have heard going on about EU immigration is the remainers. Very few Brexiters have said immigration is a big issue and I havent seen any comments on here from anyone saying it is. You need to drop that one.
And as for trade, most companies are trying to grow trade wherever they can. Businesses are always trying to expand markets and grow. Just because they lose trade with us it doesn't mean other markets will suddenly open up which are not open now. Where do you think all this worldwide trade will suddenly appear from, thin air?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
IAWT... or do we?
Germany, France, Luxembourg, (amongst others) have been (unsuccessfully) trying to acquire Canary Wharf’s capital for many years. Canary Wharf (over the last three decades) has established itself as the largest financial sector in the world.
Fundamentally as London was sold as the ‘gateway to the EU’ for Asian, US, (non-EU) lenders/markets etc.
Brexit has more or less ensured Canary Wharf will no longer be the largest financial region in the world.
Historically the economy has permanently been absolutely vital in determining political conclusions. However in this instance the economic growth of the UK appears to be secondary.
I don't know how accurate (or true) is the article in the Independant but feck me, it is depressing.
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 8 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This may help:
http://www.ja606.co.uk/comments/viewAllComments/354383/7#C16875235
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
You only have to take a slightly deeper look at the state of EU blocks chronic finance problems which are not given much attention by the mainstream media in this country for very obvious reasons...
To name but a few...Germany - Deutche Bank overexposed and the subject to an unsettled $14 bn fine, not to mention Merkal's precarious position in government and the fore coming German elections which will take place in the 3rd quarter of next year.
Italy - Again over exposed banks with no sane way of recouping their bad debt...
Greece - A debt on a nation that will possibly never be fully repaid, similarly Cyprus too.
Then you have the Eastern European countries such as Estonia, Bulgaria etc which have also taken on huge loans (debt) from the EU.
Its a completely unsustainable cycle of debt which needs addressing and reforming not refusal...As a nation, we voted against this culture in the last election but for some reason when it applies to the EU we all feel very differently....
Over 33 million people voted. That is a huge proportion of those that can vote. People on both sides chose not to vote, largely because they thought their vote would not make a difference on both sides. Bremainers thought they would win and didnt vote and Brexiters thought they would lose so didnt vote. In fact more people I know didnt vote because they wanted Brexit but didnt think it was worth the effort to lose anyway than remainers who didnt bother.
To suggest we shouldnt have had a referendum is undemocratic and stinks of sour grapes.
Very few people seem to understand the amount we actually pay to the EU as well. Both sides lied.
It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
==============
Totally agree with this.
On the otherhand, I doubt any politicians/parties or government would have had the balls to take such a big decision, regardless of the outcome. They would have been blamed for many decades to come.
Now though, they can just say the "British people" have spoken.
But even so, the two people who led the Brexit campaign decide to resign after the result without giving any reasons.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I am gooner now
I agree the result has to be respected but so many people were, (and are) completely ignorant in regard to the mechanics of the EU and how it works, and in many instances benefits them.
Most people couldn’t even name their MEP, never mind what they do.
Personally I believe decades of media scaremongering influenced many peoples’ conception of the EU.
Ironically any saving (there will be none in the short to medium term) will be absorbed via tariffs and a smaller economy. The most heralded ‘fifth largest economy in the world’ was as a result of the UK service industry as a EU member.
comment by I am gooner now (U16927)
posted 43 minutes ago
Deluded, the only people I have heard going on about EU immigration is the remainers. Very few Brexiters have said immigration is a big issue and I havent seen any comments on here from anyone saying it is. You need to drop that one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I haven't had time to research this more thoroughly, so I've gone for the first relevant search results I've found, so feel free to add your counter from a reliable source.
This is an Ipsos-Mori survey published about 10 days before the referendum:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3746/immigration-is-now-the-top-issue-for-voters-in-the-eu-referendum.aspx
It reported immigration as being the greatest concern for 33% of voters, and had been rising significantly as the referendum approached.
I'm sure there will have been polls conducted as regards what finally guided Brexit/Remain voters, but don't have time to research it just now. Sorry.
comment by I am gooner now (U16927)
posted 8 minutes ago
Over 33 million people voted. That is a huge proportion of those that can vote. People on both sides chose not to vote, largely because they thought their vote would not make a difference on both sides. Bremainers thought they would win and didnt vote and Brexiters thought they would lose so didnt vote. In fact more people I know didnt vote because they wanted Brexit but didnt think it was worth the effort to lose anyway than remainers who didnt bother.
To suggest we shouldnt have had a referendum is undemocratic and stinks of sour grapes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our first past the past the post system has cultivated the mentality you describe where people believe that their vote won't have any effect, due to the large number of people in safe seats.
But anyway, it's not sour grapes - It was something I was saying before the referendum. And it's not undemocratic either - we don't live in a direct democracy. As citizens we don't get to vote on every minutiae of policy. We elect representatives to do this for us, and they are in turn accountable to us. Therefore, how is it undemocratic to allow them to make this decision?
Direct democracy is a disaster because it will ultimately always marginalize minorities and pander to the lowest common denominator.
Mourinho
Immigration was definitely a driving force behind Brexit.
What I can’t comprehend is that EU immigration (a large percentage of which are students) equates to around 0.14% of the UK population, (and contribute to the economy / less strain on the benefit system than UK nationals).
Yet many placed immigration front and centre; ahead of the economic consequences of leaving the EU, and potentially the SM.
Funny that the main guy that financed the Brexit campaign made £200m shorting the currency on the night of the vote but no one ever mentions that.
There were no lofty ambitions for the country involved in his support, it was always about creating the circumstances in which a lot of money could be made.
It was not a vote that could be left to our MPs alone. When something so clearly is impacting on 'way of life' and a decision needs to be made on keeping your elected Government accountable or acceding more control to a foreign body then it has to be by way of public referendum.
But to address the OP's point. Maybe it's Theresa May's disastrously poor ideas coming to light. She'll be tattooing numbers on foreigners next.
I wonder how many people realise what a laughing stock Britain is at the moment. Where I work I meet people from all over the world. When they realise I'm British they almost always bring up Brexit. They either laugh at Britain or express sympathy for me.
The trouble with the UK is its obsession with itself. The media and papers try to uphold an island mentality that has no place in today's world. They promote the idea that protectionism might actually lead somewhere other than ruin.
The most amazing thing they've pulled off is to sell the idea that the EU is undemocratic but the Parliamentary system is fine and dandy.
Most people who voted out don't mind using foreign branded stuff for themselves
Mourinho
Immigration was definitely a driving force behind Brexit.
What I can’t comprehend is that EU immigration (a large percentage of which are students) equates to around 0.14% of the UK population, (and contribute to the economy / less strain on the benefit system than UK nationals).
Yet many placed immigration front and centre; ahead of the economic consequences of leaving the EU, and potentially the SM.
===========================
Because this was an issue that has been voiced for the last 20 years and so far fallen on deaf ears because anyone, especially politicians that dares to speak out - even when logically - is branded a racist.
When the voter of any democracy feel that they are not being listened too they will vote accordingly. That should be no surprise at all.
To make matters worse, this is the clincher, is when the politicians speak out against and brand anyone wishing not to conform to their ideology as idiots/uneducated. It should also be no surprise that they will further marginalise society and lead to an adverse outcome which is exactly what happened during the Brexit vote.
More ironic is that the politicians in the US have taken the exact same path and for that reason can only have themselves to blame for Trump still being in the race to be their next president.
Anyone who is old enough to remember Britain's entry to EU and subsequent referendum will remember that we were told that the EU/Common Market was a TRADING ARRANGENT only, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, anyone could have read the entire treaty of Rome (available in some public libraries), all 28 (??) or so volumes of it and dug up the truth but that wasn't really an option. So the govt LIED to take us in, nothing new there and both sides exaggerated on the recent referendum.
For those dyed-in-the-wool remainers, I should point out that the GB economy didn't do that badly before.
Yes there are advantages for being in and also for being out.
Switzerland aren't doing too badly and neither is Noway, both are trading with EU. I don't think Brexit itself is the problem but the terms of the exit certainly will be.
It's pleasing to know that this thread that started with the "anyone who disagrees with their opinion is an idiot" posters and has been hijacked by posters wanting a sensible debate. Will it last ? I'm not holding my breath.
comment by Sömeday_693 - Elneny will be our salvation (U8892)
posted 1 hour, 17 minutes ago
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
apart from the main issues like immigration or the economy the bigger message from brexit is a rejection of politics and the establishment. That's why it was right people decided instead of MP's imo. Parliament doesn't represent the make up of the country and the majority of them are completely out of touch. The same thing is happening in america and a lot of people haven't grasped this phenomenon yet. trump/brexit voters are seen as racist right wingers and clinton/remainers are the nice tolerant liberals, which is nonsense because it's establishment politics that has created the ills we see today, the wars, the rising inequality and domination of big business on society and our lives. I think the political landscape in the west is at the start of a revolution, left and right wing doesn't mean much anymore because a lot of working class people no longer vote labour and more and more well off people have liberal views.
comment by puffinthebushkangaroo (U1950)
posted 1 minute ago
Anyone who is old enough to remember Britain's entry to EU and subsequent referendum will remember that we were told that the EU/Common Market was a TRADING ARRANGENT only, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, anyone could have read the entire treaty of Rome (available in some public libraries), all 28 (??) or so volumes of it and dug up the truth but that wasn't really an option. So the govt LIED to take us in, nothing new there and both sides exaggerated on the recent referendum.
For those dyed-in-the-wool remainers, I should point out that the GB economy didn't do that badly before.
Yes there are advantages for being in and also for being out.
Switzerland aren't doing too badly and neither is Noway, both are trading with EU. I don't think Brexit itself is the problem but the terms of the exit certainly will be.
It's pleasing to know that this thread that started with the "anyone who disagrees with their opinion is an idiot" posters and has been hijacked by posters wanting a sensible debate. Will it last ? I'm not holding my breath.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Switzerland and Norway are tiny states capable of living off dodgy banking and oil respectively. Norway is known to be heading for trouble.
Britain was doing well pre-EU due the remnants of the Empire's wealth and the fact that it still made stuff up until Thatcher.
It is no longer 1972.
Sign in if you want to comment
Jeez, when did this happen?
Page 10 of 14
10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14
posted on 11/10/16
comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 10 seconds ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 5 minutes ago
Is there the possibility BMW will shift the plant they have over here back to Germany?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so, I'd be more inclined to to believe that they would get better deals in the newer EU nations (former Eastern Bloc nations).
I think salaries and other manufacturing costs would be lower than in Germany and the governments would be more open to negotiations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah maybe not move back to Germany, but leave the UK being the pertinent point
posted on 11/10/16
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
posted on 11/10/16
Deluded, the only people I have heard going on about EU immigration is the remainers. Very few Brexiters have said immigration is a big issue and I havent seen any comments on here from anyone saying it is. You need to drop that one.
And as for trade, most companies are trying to grow trade wherever they can. Businesses are always trying to expand markets and grow. Just because they lose trade with us it doesn't mean other markets will suddenly open up which are not open now. Where do you think all this worldwide trade will suddenly appear from, thin air?
posted on 11/10/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 11/10/16
IAWT... or do we?
Germany, France, Luxembourg, (amongst others) have been (unsuccessfully) trying to acquire Canary Wharf’s capital for many years. Canary Wharf (over the last three decades) has established itself as the largest financial sector in the world.
Fundamentally as London was sold as the ‘gateway to the EU’ for Asian, US, (non-EU) lenders/markets etc.
Brexit has more or less ensured Canary Wharf will no longer be the largest financial region in the world.
Historically the economy has permanently been absolutely vital in determining political conclusions. However in this instance the economic growth of the UK appears to be secondary.
posted on 11/10/16
I don't know how accurate (or true) is the article in the Independant but feck me, it is depressing.
posted on 11/10/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 8 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This may help:
http://www.ja606.co.uk/comments/viewAllComments/354383/7#C16875235
posted on 11/10/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
posted on 11/10/16
You only have to take a slightly deeper look at the state of EU blocks chronic finance problems which are not given much attention by the mainstream media in this country for very obvious reasons...
To name but a few...Germany - Deutche Bank overexposed and the subject to an unsettled $14 bn fine, not to mention Merkal's precarious position in government and the fore coming German elections which will take place in the 3rd quarter of next year.
Italy - Again over exposed banks with no sane way of recouping their bad debt...
Greece - A debt on a nation that will possibly never be fully repaid, similarly Cyprus too.
Then you have the Eastern European countries such as Estonia, Bulgaria etc which have also taken on huge loans (debt) from the EU.
Its a completely unsustainable cycle of debt which needs addressing and reforming not refusal...As a nation, we voted against this culture in the last election but for some reason when it applies to the EU we all feel very differently....
posted on 11/10/16
Over 33 million people voted. That is a huge proportion of those that can vote. People on both sides chose not to vote, largely because they thought their vote would not make a difference on both sides. Bremainers thought they would win and didnt vote and Brexiters thought they would lose so didnt vote. In fact more people I know didnt vote because they wanted Brexit but didnt think it was worth the effort to lose anyway than remainers who didnt bother.
To suggest we shouldnt have had a referendum is undemocratic and stinks of sour grapes.
posted on 11/10/16
Very few people seem to understand the amount we actually pay to the EU as well. Both sides lied.
posted on 11/10/16
It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
==============
Totally agree with this.
On the otherhand, I doubt any politicians/parties or government would have had the balls to take such a big decision, regardless of the outcome. They would have been blamed for many decades to come.
Now though, they can just say the "British people" have spoken.
But even so, the two people who led the Brexit campaign decide to resign after the result without giving any reasons.
posted on 11/10/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 11/10/16
I am gooner now
I agree the result has to be respected but so many people were, (and are) completely ignorant in regard to the mechanics of the EU and how it works, and in many instances benefits them.
Most people couldn’t even name their MEP, never mind what they do.
Personally I believe decades of media scaremongering influenced many peoples’ conception of the EU.
Ironically any saving (there will be none in the short to medium term) will be absorbed via tariffs and a smaller economy. The most heralded ‘fifth largest economy in the world’ was as a result of the UK service industry as a EU member.
posted on 11/10/16
comment by I am gooner now (U16927)
posted 43 minutes ago
Deluded, the only people I have heard going on about EU immigration is the remainers. Very few Brexiters have said immigration is a big issue and I havent seen any comments on here from anyone saying it is. You need to drop that one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I haven't had time to research this more thoroughly, so I've gone for the first relevant search results I've found, so feel free to add your counter from a reliable source.
This is an Ipsos-Mori survey published about 10 days before the referendum:
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3746/immigration-is-now-the-top-issue-for-voters-in-the-eu-referendum.aspx
It reported immigration as being the greatest concern for 33% of voters, and had been rising significantly as the referendum approached.
I'm sure there will have been polls conducted as regards what finally guided Brexit/Remain voters, but don't have time to research it just now. Sorry.
posted on 11/10/16
comment by I am gooner now (U16927)
posted 8 minutes ago
Over 33 million people voted. That is a huge proportion of those that can vote. People on both sides chose not to vote, largely because they thought their vote would not make a difference on both sides. Bremainers thought they would win and didnt vote and Brexiters thought they would lose so didnt vote. In fact more people I know didnt vote because they wanted Brexit but didnt think it was worth the effort to lose anyway than remainers who didnt bother.
To suggest we shouldnt have had a referendum is undemocratic and stinks of sour grapes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our first past the past the post system has cultivated the mentality you describe where people believe that their vote won't have any effect, due to the large number of people in safe seats.
But anyway, it's not sour grapes - It was something I was saying before the referendum. And it's not undemocratic either - we don't live in a direct democracy. As citizens we don't get to vote on every minutiae of policy. We elect representatives to do this for us, and they are in turn accountable to us. Therefore, how is it undemocratic to allow them to make this decision?
Direct democracy is a disaster because it will ultimately always marginalize minorities and pander to the lowest common denominator.
posted on 11/10/16
Mourinho
Immigration was definitely a driving force behind Brexit.
What I can’t comprehend is that EU immigration (a large percentage of which are students) equates to around 0.14% of the UK population, (and contribute to the economy / less strain on the benefit system than UK nationals).
Yet many placed immigration front and centre; ahead of the economic consequences of leaving the EU, and potentially the SM.
posted on 11/10/16
Funny that the main guy that financed the Brexit campaign made £200m shorting the currency on the night of the vote but no one ever mentions that.
There were no lofty ambitions for the country involved in his support, it was always about creating the circumstances in which a lot of money could be made.
posted on 11/10/16
It was not a vote that could be left to our MPs alone. When something so clearly is impacting on 'way of life' and a decision needs to be made on keeping your elected Government accountable or acceding more control to a foreign body then it has to be by way of public referendum.
posted on 11/10/16
But to address the OP's point. Maybe it's Theresa May's disastrously poor ideas coming to light. She'll be tattooing numbers on foreigners next.
I wonder how many people realise what a laughing stock Britain is at the moment. Where I work I meet people from all over the world. When they realise I'm British they almost always bring up Brexit. They either laugh at Britain or express sympathy for me.
The trouble with the UK is its obsession with itself. The media and papers try to uphold an island mentality that has no place in today's world. They promote the idea that protectionism might actually lead somewhere other than ruin.
The most amazing thing they've pulled off is to sell the idea that the EU is undemocratic but the Parliamentary system is fine and dandy.
posted on 11/10/16
Most people who voted out don't mind using foreign branded stuff for themselves
posted on 11/10/16
Mourinho
Immigration was definitely a driving force behind Brexit.
What I can’t comprehend is that EU immigration (a large percentage of which are students) equates to around 0.14% of the UK population, (and contribute to the economy / less strain on the benefit system than UK nationals).
Yet many placed immigration front and centre; ahead of the economic consequences of leaving the EU, and potentially the SM.
===========================
Because this was an issue that has been voiced for the last 20 years and so far fallen on deaf ears because anyone, especially politicians that dares to speak out - even when logically - is branded a racist.
When the voter of any democracy feel that they are not being listened too they will vote accordingly. That should be no surprise at all.
To make matters worse, this is the clincher, is when the politicians speak out against and brand anyone wishing not to conform to their ideology as idiots/uneducated. It should also be no surprise that they will further marginalise society and lead to an adverse outcome which is exactly what happened during the Brexit vote.
More ironic is that the politicians in the US have taken the exact same path and for that reason can only have themselves to blame for Trump still being in the race to be their next president.
posted on 11/10/16
Anyone who is old enough to remember Britain's entry to EU and subsequent referendum will remember that we were told that the EU/Common Market was a TRADING ARRANGENT only, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, anyone could have read the entire treaty of Rome (available in some public libraries), all 28 (??) or so volumes of it and dug up the truth but that wasn't really an option. So the govt LIED to take us in, nothing new there and both sides exaggerated on the recent referendum.
For those dyed-in-the-wool remainers, I should point out that the GB economy didn't do that badly before.
Yes there are advantages for being in and also for being out.
Switzerland aren't doing too badly and neither is Noway, both are trading with EU. I don't think Brexit itself is the problem but the terms of the exit certainly will be.
It's pleasing to know that this thread that started with the "anyone who disagrees with their opinion is an idiot" posters and has been hijacked by posters wanting a sensible debate. Will it last ? I'm not holding my breath.
posted on 11/10/16
comment by Sömeday_693 - Elneny will be our salvation (U8892)
posted 1 hour, 17 minutes ago
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don't have time to read a 3-page backlog of comments right now, so I don't know if this has been put out here yet, but I'll go ahead just in case...
Who voted what?
Can't everyone just start from the basic, logical premises that:
1. Many Brexit voters did not have a racial/immigration based agenda.
2. A fair number (according to the surveys) DID, and without those votes, Brexit would never have succeeded.
3. Not every Remain voter was well informed either, and many will have voted more on a 'devil you know basis'. Without those ill-informed votes, the Remain campaign might well have struggled to succeed too.
4. No every Remain voter is a bleeding-heart, leftie liberal. There were also good reasons not to take this seemingly irreversible step.
5. Many people chose not to take part and regretted it. This is down to the fact that they could not take a serious stance on an issue that sounded suspiciously named after by some kind of breakfast cereal.
I hope this allows everyone to discuss in a slightly more civil manner.
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It seems fairly clear to me that we should never have had a referendum. As a couple of your points suggest, this is far too complex a decision to be made by a largely poorly informed public. Even those who are fairly well informed struggle greatly. Decisions like this are why we have a representative demorcrscy, so those who have the time and resources to make these decisions do so on our behalf.
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apart from the main issues like immigration or the economy the bigger message from brexit is a rejection of politics and the establishment. That's why it was right people decided instead of MP's imo. Parliament doesn't represent the make up of the country and the majority of them are completely out of touch. The same thing is happening in america and a lot of people haven't grasped this phenomenon yet. trump/brexit voters are seen as racist right wingers and clinton/remainers are the nice tolerant liberals, which is nonsense because it's establishment politics that has created the ills we see today, the wars, the rising inequality and domination of big business on society and our lives. I think the political landscape in the west is at the start of a revolution, left and right wing doesn't mean much anymore because a lot of working class people no longer vote labour and more and more well off people have liberal views.
posted on 11/10/16
comment by puffinthebushkangaroo (U1950)
posted 1 minute ago
Anyone who is old enough to remember Britain's entry to EU and subsequent referendum will remember that we were told that the EU/Common Market was a TRADING ARRANGENT only, nothing more nothing less.
Yes, anyone could have read the entire treaty of Rome (available in some public libraries), all 28 (??) or so volumes of it and dug up the truth but that wasn't really an option. So the govt LIED to take us in, nothing new there and both sides exaggerated on the recent referendum.
For those dyed-in-the-wool remainers, I should point out that the GB economy didn't do that badly before.
Yes there are advantages for being in and also for being out.
Switzerland aren't doing too badly and neither is Noway, both are trading with EU. I don't think Brexit itself is the problem but the terms of the exit certainly will be.
It's pleasing to know that this thread that started with the "anyone who disagrees with their opinion is an idiot" posters and has been hijacked by posters wanting a sensible debate. Will it last ? I'm not holding my breath.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Switzerland and Norway are tiny states capable of living off dodgy banking and oil respectively. Norway is known to be heading for trouble.
Britain was doing well pre-EU due the remnants of the Empire's wealth and the fact that it still made stuff up until Thatcher.
It is no longer 1972.
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