comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
I've always assumed Zionism is a nationalist movement wanting a Jewish state for Jewish people.
That within that movement there are varying degrees of nationalistic fervour from benign to extreme.
Happy to be educated if that's wrong.
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That is pretty much my understanding of it mate.
Sizzle has identified himself as an anti Zionist previously, and I wonder if Jose does too.
If so, what is their definition of Zionism?
Are they against Israel existing?
Or is there a new definition? If so, why has it not been given another name to differentiate it from the definition above?
Or is saying it is a different definition a way of hiding your views that Israel should not exist in plain sight?
For Jose, another article about Jews and Israel being interchangeable among those on the left. I am trying to keep any links to those from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/18/oxford-student-left-antisemitic-university-antisemitism-jewish-progressive-politics
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
.............................................
See how often the words Jew and Israel are interchanged in discusssion. They are not one and the same.
..................................................
Same with Muslims, Arabs, Islam and one of any number of Muslim groups, people or countries. Racists will conflate language in such a way to criticise a group but large swathes of people do it out of laziness or even just ignorance.
We do have a problem with Islamophobia but if we identified every person who misused terms when describing groups as racist as well then we have an epidemic!
........................................
Do I think Israel are angels or beyond reproach? No. However, there are two sides to a coin and I do not think it is fair to make the criticism so one-sided.
..................................................
They've been slowly taking over another peoples country for the last 60 years, forcing the people who originally lived there into grinding poverty whilst slowly stealing more and more of their land.
Our country is an enthusiastic supporter of this.
This has been a major driving factor in the clash between Islam and the West and all the lovely consequences we have had because of that.
If their victims were white and Christian there is no way they would get such special treatment.
Apartheid South Africa didn't even go as far as Israel and they became international pariah's.
Another target of the left, because, as I have stated many times, they were another one we enthusiastically supported. Thatcher branded Mandela a terrorist.
Neither are white, or Christian. Very hard to see your point.
On the flipside, if Israel was not a Jewish state would the hard left be as critical of it?
I think we know the answer to this becuase there are plenty of non Jewish states that have worse records than Israel but somehow escape as much scrutiny
.........................................
Apartheid South Africa, another big target of the left.
Corbyn even got arrested protesting them
White led.
Or how about another example, the recent Russia attempt at expansion into Ukraine.
Thankfully the Ukrainians are White Christians rather than Muslims ohh and what do you now the world is up in arms about it.
If that was some more Palestinian land being taken nobody would give a damn, they are only Muslims after all.
As for Zionism heard a few different takes on it tbh I just avoid using the term.
I am Anti- Israel expanding its current borders.
I am Anti- Israel keeping its current borders.
I am Anti- Israel not existing together.
TBH my ideas would either be Israel returned to its pre '67 borders or a one state solution for both peoples. I'll let everyone else decide if that makes me anti-Zionist in their interpretation or not.
If we had some magic time machine and I had a vote I would vote against the original foundation of Israel after WW2 but I imagine most people would in retrospect.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 5 minutes ago
Neither are white, or Christian. Very hard to see your point.
On the flipside, if Israel was not a Jewish state would the hard left be as critical of it?
I think we know the answer to this becuase there are plenty of non Jewish states that have worse records than Israel but somehow escape as much scrutiny
.........................................
Apartheid South Africa, another big target of the left.
Corbyn even got arrested protesting them
White led.
Or how about another example, the recent Russia attempt at expansion into Ukraine.
Thankfully the Ukrainians are White Christians rather than Muslims ohh and what do you now the world is up in arms about it.
If that was some more Palestinian land being taken nobody would give a damn, they are only Muslims after all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
If someone asks me about the limitations of tika taka, me simply attacking Wimbledon-style route one football does not answer the question
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
...........................................
And Apartheid South Africa?
Protested heavily by the left more so than other powers that were also bad but not supported by our countries.
Were the whites leading South Africa secretly Jewish because tbh that is the only thing that makes sense??
After all the only other explanation is that evil Jewish hater Jeremy Corbyn might actually dislike occupation and racism displayed by the South African and Israeli regimes and supported by Britain....
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 9 seconds ago
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You denounce Israel for being in existence ( you also have done may times before). Their whole cultural history originates from this area.
So what about Australia and the USA whose cultural history belongs mainly in Europe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't denounce Israel for being in existence....
I've mentioned its a stupid idea just to give other peoples land away to a foreign group of people, or in other words the foundation of modern day Israel... although I think what has happened since pretty much speaks for itself in that regard.
Not sure many people could actually argue it was a good idea.
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 41 seconds ago
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
...........................................
And Apartheid South Africa?
Protested heavily by the left more so than other powers that were also bad but not supported by our countries.
Were the whites leading South Africa secretly Jewish because tbh that is the only thing that makes sense??
After all the only other explanation is that evil Jewish hater Jeremy Corbyn might actually dislike occupation and racism displayed by the South African and Israeli regimes and supported by Britain....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apartheid South Africa deserved to be challenged, as does Israel. But we are talking about the current day here, not the 90s. All the major players are dead.
I would not agree with South Africans being blamed per se for their government though.
Are we discussing Jeremy Corbyn exclusively here? I must have missed that memo.
Did we say the hard left ONLY target Jews, therefore any target of theirs must be Jew related? I must have missed that one too.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Apartheid South Africa deserved to be challenged, as does Israel. But we are talking about the current day here, not the 90s. All the major players are dead.
I would not agree with South Africans being blamed per se for their government though.
Are we discussing Jeremy Corbyn exclusively here? I must have missed that memo.
.......................................
We are discussing the left and their disgusting racism which caused them to protest South Africa and Israel....
Or is it their dislike of occupation and racism especially supported by their own countries.
The common theme in both would be the latter.
And you could have fooled me regarding Corbyn, all the links you gave me were Corbyn and Labour this, Corbyn and Labour that.
Corbyn and the left protested white led Apartheid South Africa even harder if anything, ignore it because it doesn't fit into based on racism theory but the common themes between the 2 are pretty obvious.
Occupation.
Racism.
Supported (strongly) by us.
..........................................
Did we say the hard left ONLY target Jews, therefore any target of theirs must be Jew related? I must have missed that one too.
.......................................
If the hard left target all groups because of their actions rather than because of discriminatory reasons (such as their race and/or religion) then I guess there isn't actually a problem then?
Also not sure why we are narrowing it down to hard left, Corbyn is all over the articles you are mention and he is the leader of the labour party. Quite frankly if he is far left than you are probably far right, sensible political discourse please.
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are your words.
I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
A bit of a cheap tactic to try and deflect, I directly address the topic of the article and you go about deflection?
Either debate the topic or leave it be don't try to dance around it.
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 9 seconds ago
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You denounce Israel for being in existence ( you also have done may times before). Their whole cultural history originates from this area.
So what about Australia and the USA whose cultural history belongs mainly in Europe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't denounce Israel for being in existence....
I've mentioned its a stupid idea just to give other peoples land away to a foreign group of people, or in other words the foundation of modern day Israel... although I think what has happened since pretty much speaks for itself in that regard.
Not sure many people could actually argue it was a good idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear from your past comments and those today that you don't support the existence of Israel however you try to frame it. Do you support the existence of Australia and the USA on the same basis?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can attribute whatever views you like to me tbh but I reserve the right to choose my own.
As for America, guess we are talking about the slaughtering of the natives and the stealing of their land?
Got to be up there with one of the worst acts of the last few hundred years, would definitely strongly criticise those involved if it was happening today I not just because I am some crazy racist who hates white European/Americans.
As for Australia TBH I know less about it but I know we again mistreated the natives horribly, again I would be massively against this if we were still doing it today and not just because of my hatred for white people....
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are your words.
I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
A bit of a cheap tactic to try and deflect, I directly address the topic of the article and you go about deflection?
Either debate the topic or leave it be don't try to dance around it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I see you do not add the context of that remark, because the words
"I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel"
would to most people seem to be me trying to question you trying to dismiss anti semitism as a tool to simply trying to shut down criticism of Israel
Here are your words from your preceding two posts to mine...
"This idea that Israel can not be criticised is actually the most racist thing of all, can help but feel this wouldn't be the case if it was white people or Christians they were occupying and slaughtering."
"TBH many just use it as a cheap excuse to defend Israel, there actions are no more acceptable than IS or any of the other bad groups in the Middle East."
My comment was in reply to you deflecting the argument to the strawman one of Israel not being allowed to be criticised.
^I never said Israel could not be criticised, quite the opposite, and I do not believe anyone on the entire thread has said such a thing.
My comment was in reply to you deflecting the argument to the strawman one of Israel not being allowed to be criticised
..........................................
I never said that Israel wasn't allowed to be criticised, only that people in an effort to stifle debate tried to conflate the two, something the article even admits itself.
Yet when I mention this you immediately resort to cheap tactics calling it a deflection despite the fact it is the very thing the article is about.
Look criticism of Israel could be anti semitic, hell criticism of IS could be a great cover for people who just hate muslims, you could even go to as far as to say racists can use complaining about immigration as cover.
Considering Corbyn and the left's history with protesting occupation and racism supported by us I'd suggest criticism of Israel is mostly due to Israel's misdeeds rather than anti Semitism.
Much like criticism of IS is done because quite frankly they are psycho's. Some racists may join in with the criticism to get their kicks but quite frankly that is unimportant.
Immigration is probably an issue which gets the racists riled right up, does that mean we should avoid discussing it?
You don't see Corbyn and the left do the kind of tricks you see from Farage, standing in front of a poster of a group of Muslims. If the leaders of the left were acted a bit more like the right does towards Muslims I might think you have a case.
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
I never said that Israel wasn't allowed to be criticised, only that people in an effort to stifle debate tried to conflate the two, something the article even admits itself.
Yet when I mention this you immediately resort to cheap tactics calling it a deflection despite the fact it is the very thing the article is about.
***
"This idea that Israel can not be criticised is actually the most racist thing of all, can help but feel this wouldn't be the case if it was white people or Christians they were occupying and slaughtering."
Look criticism of Israel could be anti semitic, hell criticism of IS could be a great cover for people who just hate muslims, you could even go to as far as to say racists can use complaining about immigration as cover.
***
Some racists do use immigration as a cover, yes. Not sure why you think I would deny it. Saying some criticism of Israel is dressed up antinSemitism is no different.
Having concerns about immigration does not automatically = racism, just as concerns about Israel does not automatically = antisemitism
Considering Corbyn and the left's history with protesting occupation and racism supported by us I'd suggest criticism of Israel is mostly due to Israel's misdeeds rather than anti Semitism.
***
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
Much like criticism of IS is done because quite frankly they are psycho's. Some racists may join in with the criticism to get their kicks but quite frankly that is unimportant.
***
IS are not a country, but I will go with it. Of course racists will join in the (valid) criticism. Nobody is pretending there is no rightwing racism.
Immigration is probably an issue which gets the racists riled right up, does that mean we should avoid discussing it?
***
No it doesnt. It is wrong to tar all immigration debate as racist, but foolish to believe that there will not be racists that want to curb immigration
You don't see Corbyn and the left do the kind of tricks you see from Farage, standing in front of a poster of a group of Muslims. If the leaders of the left were acted a bit more like the right does towards Muslims I might think you have a case.
***
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 21 minutes ago
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
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Yes we should be consistent.
My view is that debating immigration is not racist. It does not mean I do not think there are racists that want to curb/end immigration.
The left often try and portray it as racist per se. You and I have been on enough Brexit debates to deny it.
To flip that on its head, it would be like me (right) saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I do not though, my view is consistent. Criticism of Israel is valid. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but some is.
Whereas you claim there is no problem on the left with antisemitism at all.
Sign in if you want to comment
Relationship between Left and Fascism
Page 22 of 45
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posted on 12/11/16
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
I've always assumed Zionism is a nationalist movement wanting a Jewish state for Jewish people.
That within that movement there are varying degrees of nationalistic fervour from benign to extreme.
Happy to be educated if that's wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is pretty much my understanding of it mate.
Sizzle has identified himself as an anti Zionist previously, and I wonder if Jose does too.
If so, what is their definition of Zionism?
Are they against Israel existing?
Or is there a new definition? If so, why has it not been given another name to differentiate it from the definition above?
Or is saying it is a different definition a way of hiding your views that Israel should not exist in plain sight?
For Jose, another article about Jews and Israel being interchangeable among those on the left. I am trying to keep any links to those from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/18/oxford-student-left-antisemitic-university-antisemitism-jewish-progressive-politics
posted on 12/11/16
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
.............................................
See how often the words Jew and Israel are interchanged in discusssion. They are not one and the same.
..................................................
Same with Muslims, Arabs, Islam and one of any number of Muslim groups, people or countries. Racists will conflate language in such a way to criticise a group but large swathes of people do it out of laziness or even just ignorance.
We do have a problem with Islamophobia but if we identified every person who misused terms when describing groups as racist as well then we have an epidemic!
........................................
Do I think Israel are angels or beyond reproach? No. However, there are two sides to a coin and I do not think it is fair to make the criticism so one-sided.
..................................................
They've been slowly taking over another peoples country for the last 60 years, forcing the people who originally lived there into grinding poverty whilst slowly stealing more and more of their land.
Our country is an enthusiastic supporter of this.
This has been a major driving factor in the clash between Islam and the West and all the lovely consequences we have had because of that.
If their victims were white and Christian there is no way they would get such special treatment.
Apartheid South Africa didn't even go as far as Israel and they became international pariah's.
Another target of the left, because, as I have stated many times, they were another one we enthusiastically supported. Thatcher branded Mandela a terrorist.
posted on 12/11/16
Neither are white, or Christian. Very hard to see your point.
On the flipside, if Israel was not a Jewish state would the hard left be as critical of it?
I think we know the answer to this becuase there are plenty of non Jewish states that have worse records than Israel but somehow escape as much scrutiny
.........................................
Apartheid South Africa, another big target of the left.
Corbyn even got arrested protesting them
White led.
Or how about another example, the recent Russia attempt at expansion into Ukraine.
Thankfully the Ukrainians are White Christians rather than Muslims ohh and what do you now the world is up in arms about it.
If that was some more Palestinian land being taken nobody would give a damn, they are only Muslims after all.
posted on 12/11/16
As for Zionism heard a few different takes on it tbh I just avoid using the term.
I am Anti- Israel expanding its current borders.
I am Anti- Israel keeping its current borders.
I am Anti- Israel not existing together.
TBH my ideas would either be Israel returned to its pre '67 borders or a one state solution for both peoples. I'll let everyone else decide if that makes me anti-Zionist in their interpretation or not.
If we had some magic time machine and I had a vote I would vote against the original foundation of Israel after WW2 but I imagine most people would in retrospect.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 5 minutes ago
Neither are white, or Christian. Very hard to see your point.
On the flipside, if Israel was not a Jewish state would the hard left be as critical of it?
I think we know the answer to this becuase there are plenty of non Jewish states that have worse records than Israel but somehow escape as much scrutiny
.........................................
Apartheid South Africa, another big target of the left.
Corbyn even got arrested protesting them
White led.
Or how about another example, the recent Russia attempt at expansion into Ukraine.
Thankfully the Ukrainians are White Christians rather than Muslims ohh and what do you now the world is up in arms about it.
If that was some more Palestinian land being taken nobody would give a damn, they are only Muslims after all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
If someone asks me about the limitations of tika taka, me simply attacking Wimbledon-style route one football does not answer the question
posted on 12/11/16
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
...........................................
And Apartheid South Africa?
Protested heavily by the left more so than other powers that were also bad but not supported by our countries.
Were the whites leading South Africa secretly Jewish because tbh that is the only thing that makes sense??
After all the only other explanation is that evil Jewish hater Jeremy Corbyn might actually dislike occupation and racism displayed by the South African and Israeli regimes and supported by Britain....
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 9 seconds ago
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You denounce Israel for being in existence ( you also have done may times before). Their whole cultural history originates from this area.
So what about Australia and the USA whose cultural history belongs mainly in Europe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't denounce Israel for being in existence....
I've mentioned its a stupid idea just to give other peoples land away to a foreign group of people, or in other words the foundation of modern day Israel... although I think what has happened since pretty much speaks for itself in that regard.
Not sure many people could actually argue it was a good idea.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 41 seconds ago
Not much criticism from the anti Israel left about Russia in Ukraine though is there. Which is the flipside of your argument.
...........................................
And Apartheid South Africa?
Protested heavily by the left more so than other powers that were also bad but not supported by our countries.
Were the whites leading South Africa secretly Jewish because tbh that is the only thing that makes sense??
After all the only other explanation is that evil Jewish hater Jeremy Corbyn might actually dislike occupation and racism displayed by the South African and Israeli regimes and supported by Britain....
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Apartheid South Africa deserved to be challenged, as does Israel. But we are talking about the current day here, not the 90s. All the major players are dead.
I would not agree with South Africans being blamed per se for their government though.
Are we discussing Jeremy Corbyn exclusively here? I must have missed that memo.
Did we say the hard left ONLY target Jews, therefore any target of theirs must be Jew related? I must have missed that one too.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
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Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Apartheid South Africa deserved to be challenged, as does Israel. But we are talking about the current day here, not the 90s. All the major players are dead.
I would not agree with South Africans being blamed per se for their government though.
Are we discussing Jeremy Corbyn exclusively here? I must have missed that memo.
.......................................
We are discussing the left and their disgusting racism which caused them to protest South Africa and Israel....
Or is it their dislike of occupation and racism especially supported by their own countries.
The common theme in both would be the latter.
And you could have fooled me regarding Corbyn, all the links you gave me were Corbyn and Labour this, Corbyn and Labour that.
Corbyn and the left protested white led Apartheid South Africa even harder if anything, ignore it because it doesn't fit into based on racism theory but the common themes between the 2 are pretty obvious.
Occupation.
Racism.
Supported (strongly) by us.
..........................................
Did we say the hard left ONLY target Jews, therefore any target of theirs must be Jew related? I must have missed that one too.
.......................................
If the hard left target all groups because of their actions rather than because of discriminatory reasons (such as their race and/or religion) then I guess there isn't actually a problem then?
Also not sure why we are narrowing it down to hard left, Corbyn is all over the articles you are mention and he is the leader of the labour party. Quite frankly if he is far left than you are probably far right, sensible political discourse please.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are your words.
I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
A bit of a cheap tactic to try and deflect, I directly address the topic of the article and you go about deflection?
Either debate the topic or leave it be don't try to dance around it.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 9 seconds ago
What does illegal countries even mean or am I cutting across you talking to somebody else here?
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You denounce Israel for being in existence ( you also have done may times before). Their whole cultural history originates from this area.
So what about Australia and the USA whose cultural history belongs mainly in Europe?
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I don't denounce Israel for being in existence....
I've mentioned its a stupid idea just to give other peoples land away to a foreign group of people, or in other words the foundation of modern day Israel... although I think what has happened since pretty much speaks for itself in that regard.
Not sure many people could actually argue it was a good idea.
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It is clear from your past comments and those today that you don't support the existence of Israel however you try to frame it. Do you support the existence of Australia and the USA on the same basis?
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You can attribute whatever views you like to me tbh but I reserve the right to choose my own.
As for America, guess we are talking about the slaughtering of the natives and the stealing of their land?
Got to be up there with one of the worst acts of the last few hundred years, would definitely strongly criticise those involved if it was happening today I not just because I am some crazy racist who hates white European/Americans.
As for Australia TBH I know less about it but I know we again mistreated the natives horribly, again I would be massively against this if we were still doing it today and not just because of my hatred for white people....
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, nobody said it was. The rabbi himself says so in his piece. I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
.......................................
The article was itself discussing anti Semitism, it seems you want to make the accusation but not allow any talking about it...
Why is that I wonder?
=======================
The article was about anti semitism, yes. He clearly states criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism.
How am I trying to not allow any talking about it? I clearly state that I do not think criticism of Israel is anti Semitic.
It could be said it is you trying to shut down any debate about anti semitism as being "cheap excuse to defend Israel"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as soon as I try and discuss what was written in the article you tried to shut it down as changing the subject, that is a cheap trick to avoid debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find where I did that and re-post.
Which parts of the article did you want to discuss and how did I try and shut it down?
Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are your words.
I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel, other than to deflect from what we are discussing.
A bit of a cheap tactic to try and deflect, I directly address the topic of the article and you go about deflection?
Either debate the topic or leave it be don't try to dance around it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I see you do not add the context of that remark, because the words
"I am not sure why you want to push this in the direction of people trying to silence criticism of Israel"
would to most people seem to be me trying to question you trying to dismiss anti semitism as a tool to simply trying to shut down criticism of Israel
Here are your words from your preceding two posts to mine...
"This idea that Israel can not be criticised is actually the most racist thing of all, can help but feel this wouldn't be the case if it was white people or Christians they were occupying and slaughtering."
"TBH many just use it as a cheap excuse to defend Israel, there actions are no more acceptable than IS or any of the other bad groups in the Middle East."
My comment was in reply to you deflecting the argument to the strawman one of Israel not being allowed to be criticised.
posted on 12/11/16
^I never said Israel could not be criticised, quite the opposite, and I do not believe anyone on the entire thread has said such a thing.
posted on 12/11/16
My comment was in reply to you deflecting the argument to the strawman one of Israel not being allowed to be criticised
..........................................
I never said that Israel wasn't allowed to be criticised, only that people in an effort to stifle debate tried to conflate the two, something the article even admits itself.
Yet when I mention this you immediately resort to cheap tactics calling it a deflection despite the fact it is the very thing the article is about.
Look criticism of Israel could be anti semitic, hell criticism of IS could be a great cover for people who just hate muslims, you could even go to as far as to say racists can use complaining about immigration as cover.
Considering Corbyn and the left's history with protesting occupation and racism supported by us I'd suggest criticism of Israel is mostly due to Israel's misdeeds rather than anti Semitism.
Much like criticism of IS is done because quite frankly they are psycho's. Some racists may join in with the criticism to get their kicks but quite frankly that is unimportant.
Immigration is probably an issue which gets the racists riled right up, does that mean we should avoid discussing it?
You don't see Corbyn and the left do the kind of tricks you see from Farage, standing in front of a poster of a group of Muslims. If the leaders of the left were acted a bit more like the right does towards Muslims I might think you have a case.
posted on 12/11/16
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
I never said that Israel wasn't allowed to be criticised, only that people in an effort to stifle debate tried to conflate the two, something the article even admits itself.
Yet when I mention this you immediately resort to cheap tactics calling it a deflection despite the fact it is the very thing the article is about.
***
"This idea that Israel can not be criticised is actually the most racist thing of all, can help but feel this wouldn't be the case if it was white people or Christians they were occupying and slaughtering."
Look criticism of Israel could be anti semitic, hell criticism of IS could be a great cover for people who just hate muslims, you could even go to as far as to say racists can use complaining about immigration as cover.
***
Some racists do use immigration as a cover, yes. Not sure why you think I would deny it. Saying some criticism of Israel is dressed up antinSemitism is no different.
Having concerns about immigration does not automatically = racism, just as concerns about Israel does not automatically = antisemitism
Considering Corbyn and the left's history with protesting occupation and racism supported by us I'd suggest criticism of Israel is mostly due to Israel's misdeeds rather than anti Semitism.
***
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
Much like criticism of IS is done because quite frankly they are psycho's. Some racists may join in with the criticism to get their kicks but quite frankly that is unimportant.
***
IS are not a country, but I will go with it. Of course racists will join in the (valid) criticism. Nobody is pretending there is no rightwing racism.
Immigration is probably an issue which gets the racists riled right up, does that mean we should avoid discussing it?
***
No it doesnt. It is wrong to tar all immigration debate as racist, but foolish to believe that there will not be racists that want to curb immigration
You don't see Corbyn and the left do the kind of tricks you see from Farage, standing in front of a poster of a group of Muslims. If the leaders of the left were acted a bit more like the right does towards Muslims I might think you have a case.
***
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 21 minutes ago
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
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Yes we should be consistent.
My view is that debating immigration is not racist. It does not mean I do not think there are racists that want to curb/end immigration.
The left often try and portray it as racist per se. You and I have been on enough Brexit debates to deny it.
To flip that on its head, it would be like me (right) saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I do not though, my view is consistent. Criticism of Israel is valid. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but some is.
Whereas you claim there is no problem on the left with antisemitism at all.
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