comment by TBABlue and Yellow. (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
Finally for now, Michael Palin was on the old Marr slot with Sophie Rayworth talking to a Ukraine nationalist Palin met in 1994.

Palin had been in Ukraine and Crimea, where he met Russian people who lived there and he remarked on the Russian presence in crimea, which is historical fact and yet no reason to invade, of course.

There are 7 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine, so that is more than the population of Scotland or Ireland and quite a minority....again, no excuse for Putin to invade, but s reality that will be dealt with, along with Crimea when both sides sit down to talk.

There appears to be almost hysterical Russophobia about now, with anything Russian banned now and a whole people and nation demonized, and there does appear to be open hatred of Russians and Russia among Ukrainians, not just against Putin, which is justified.

When I spoke of the dangers of ultra Ukraine nationalism or Russian or Irish or British nationalism, my point was the dangers involved in this ideology that takes on sinister forms and needs a hate target, rather than being just a movement of civic nationalism promoting self-determination and national sovereignty.

Celtic posters such as Tully, Mighty and Silver have alluded to the two sides of the Ukraine Russia story and other posters have sought to go beyond joining some anti-Russian bandwagon, and this is welcome....Just Shoot too spoke of the need to give Russia way out of this horror, because we will end up talking around a table in the end.

While we focus on Russia and all things Russia, China is backing Putin up, and so I wonder do we now start hating China and treating them as we now do the Russian people, because that is the next logical step, followed by Saudis, Iranians and Afghans?

Just my thoughts.
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TBAB

Why do you say that “China is backing Putin up”?

China has (no doubt in its own interests) in no small part divested itself of Russian investments, distanced itself from suggestions that it might provide military or economic assistance, and stated that it won’t act to help Russia bypass sanctions.

All that it appears to have done in Russia’s interests is abstain (with 35 other countries) on the United Nations votes censuring Russia, criticise the economic sanctions (without suggesting it’ll do anything about them), and called out NATO hypocrisy citing the invasion of Iraq.

It has also said that it will remain neutral, expressed its support for peace talks and offered its services as a mediator.

I see a China, as usual, acting in its own interests, ensuring that it doesn’t pess the West off and attract sanctions of its own. It’ll stay neutral and disengaged from the entire situation as long as it can.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 55 seconds ago
One minor minister? You mean the immigration minister of the time?

And I’m floundering???

😂😂😂😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye mate I’m afraid so. You’re looking to hang your whole case on a single word uttered by a junior minister for a party where it never became policy, never became law, never was enacted, never was enforced.

Like Blair said across the dispatch box to major; WEAK WEAK WEAK!!! 😘
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right ok

Immigration nationality & asylum act from 2006

Pressure on employers to check immigration status

Or the 2008 points based system that Labour created?


Yeah it’s just a phrase. No it was the start of dealing with the problem we were suffering from mass bet immigration which spiralled out of control under Labour.

They were looking to reduce this (rightly so) by making this country less appealing. Yet in 2022 all anyone points to is what the Tories did and no mention of Labour yet when a Tory MP does, you all deny it until you’re blue in the face
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait so hold on now.

I thought you were going back to 2007? Now you’re going back another year to a different bit of legislation that does not contain any reference to hostile immigration policy?

I think it’s pretty clear who is wearing blue on their face my friend, and it is you.

Tories own the hostile immigration policy. They stood behind it, they created it, they implemented it, they embedded it.

Given your apparent support for the hostile immigration policy, it is some Simone Bilesesque mental gymnastics you’re trying to do to somehow pin the blame on Labour for the hostile immigration policy that the Conservative party launched, had as part of their manifesto, and when in power implemented.

As WWSPD has highlighted, the increase in immigration numbers had the enlarging of the EU as a key root cause.

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 24 minutes ago
So wait were Labour too tough or too lenient on immigration

The way some people talk it feels like both 😬
----------------------------------------------------------------------

EU enlargement schemes had support across the UK political divide. Aside from the usual suspects.

Margaret Thatcher, John Major, and David Cameron all supportive of them. And whilst I accept your point on the UK (Labour) government not implementing EU controls on immigration, (as did Cameron who followed) it was based on the UK's economic/labour needs.

So if you are seeking to apportion blame entirely on Tony Blair, why not his predecessors.

Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.

Brexit was a valid break from the claim mass immigration in exchange for propping up a inherently flawed economic system overly reliant on the services industry and cheap labour was a good idea.

comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think you are kidding Mr.... (U3126)
posted 9 seconds ago
EU enlargement schemes had support across the UK political divide. Aside from the usual suspects.

Margaret Thatcher, John Major, and David Cameron all supportive of them. And whilst I accept your point on the UK (Labour) government not implementing EU controls on immigration, (as did Cameron who followed) it was based on the UK's economic/labour needs.

So if you are seeking to apportion blame entirely on Tony Blair, why not his predecessors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they weren’t in charge when the numbers got out of control. But these things aren’t always entirely this or that, hence it is wrong now but people to simply blame and many people wanted the mass immigration indeed, much like many wanted the benefits from the boom years economically, took the credit cards and mortgage loans but when it all went bust their story changes.

This is essentially the point that Gove is making. Policies were already being put in place by Labour in the late 2000s to control the numbers. The hostile environment was proposed by Labour’s immigration minister, further controls were put in place after that proposal and then Theresa May brought it in.

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 55 seconds ago
One minor minister? You mean the immigration minister of the time?

And I’m floundering???

😂😂😂😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye mate I’m afraid so. You’re looking to hang your whole case on a single word uttered by a junior minister for a party where it never became policy, never became law, never was enacted, never was enforced.

Like Blair said across the dispatch box to major; WEAK WEAK WEAK!!! 😘
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right ok

Immigration nationality & asylum act from 2006

Pressure on employers to check immigration status

Or the 2008 points based system that Labour created?


Yeah it’s just a phrase. No it was the start of dealing with the problem we were suffering from mass bet immigration which spiralled out of control under Labour.

They were looking to reduce this (rightly so) by making this country less appealing. Yet in 2022 all anyone points to is what the Tories did and no mention of Labour yet when a Tory MP does, you all deny it until you’re blue in the face
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait so hold on now.

I thought you were going back to 2007? Now you’re going back another year to a different bit of legislation that does not contain any reference to hostile immigration policy?

I think it’s pretty clear who is wearing blue on their face my friend, and it is you.

Tories own the hostile immigration policy. They stood behind it, they created it, they implemented it, they embedded it.

Given your apparent support for the hostile immigration policy, it is some Simone Bilesesque mental gymnastics you’re trying to do to somehow pin the blame on Labour for the hostile immigration policy that the Conservative party launched, had as part of their manifesto, and when in power implemented.

As WWSPD has highlighted, the increase in immigration numbers had the enlarging of the EU as a key root cause.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have an apparent skill for not being able to look at things from a macro perspective mate.

I shall summarise it for you very quickly:

Net immigration numbers increased hugely
Policies were put in place by Labour to start to control these numbers
Creating a hostile environment was proposed by the Labour Immigration Minster in 2007
Additional policy was created after that
2012 Theresa May enacted the hostile environment policy


So in 2022, I find it quite when Labour supporters or MPs simply point at and blame the 2012 action and nothing else.

I find it boring that you nor anyone else here (WWSPD comes close to) can take your partisan glasses off for a moment and realise that this was a problem that both parties were seeking to resolve and that is what Gove is saying. The fact that Labour got ousted doesn’t prove anything. The trend & patterns are there you to see.

Satters - what elements of the hostile immigration policy do you support? Did you support the folk driving around with the signs? Do you support dawn raids? Do you support the NRPF approach for migrants? Did you support the creation in 2012 of the “Hostile Environment Working Group” and the policies and laws that came out of the work they did?

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don’t like it when you act condescendingly. Now you will say, as you do quite regularly, that you apologise and don’t mean to come across that way et cetera.

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 36 seconds ago
Satters - what elements of the hostile immigration policy do you support? Did you support the folk driving around with the signs? Do you support dawn raids? Do you support the NRPF approach for migrants? Did you support the creation in 2012 of the “Hostile Environment Working Group” and the policies and laws that came out of the work they did?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh god and here come the 14 questions. Sorry mate, your condescension has bored me to losing the will to discuss

Telling someone they can't look at things from a 'macro perspective', then accusing them of being condescending in your next post.

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 38 seconds ago
Telling someone they can't look at things from a 'macro perspective', then accusing them of being condescending in your next post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s called t1t for tat

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 38 seconds ago
Telling someone they can't look at things from a 'macro perspective', then accusing them of being condescending in your next post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s called t1t for tat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or hypocrisy.

TBF I think even Sat Nav will appreciate the irony of him calling someone else condescending

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 55 seconds ago
One minor minister? You mean the immigration minister of the time?

And I’m floundering???

😂😂😂😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye mate I’m afraid so. You’re looking to hang your whole case on a single word uttered by a junior minister for a party where it never became policy, never became law, never was enacted, never was enforced.

Like Blair said across the dispatch box to major; WEAK WEAK WEAK!!! 😘
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right ok

Immigration nationality & asylum act from 2006

Pressure on employers to check immigration status

Or the 2008 points based system that Labour created?


Yeah it’s just a phrase. No it was the start of dealing with the problem we were suffering from mass bet immigration which spiralled out of control under Labour.

They were looking to reduce this (rightly so) by making this country less appealing. Yet in 2022 all anyone points to is what the Tories did and no mention of Labour yet when a Tory MP does, you all deny it until you’re blue in the face
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait so hold on now.

I thought you were going back to 2007? Now you’re going back another year to a different bit of legislation that does not contain any reference to hostile immigration policy?

I think it’s pretty clear who is wearing blue on their face my friend, and it is you.

Tories own the hostile immigration policy. They stood behind it, they created it, they implemented it, they embedded it.

Given your apparent support for the hostile immigration policy, it is some Simone Bilesesque mental gymnastics you’re trying to do to somehow pin the blame on Labour for the hostile immigration policy that the Conservative party launched, had as part of their manifesto, and when in power implemented.

As WWSPD has highlighted, the increase in immigration numbers had the enlarging of the EU as a key root cause.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have an apparent skill for not being able to look at things from a macro perspective mate.

I shall summarise it for you very quickly:

Net immigration numbers increased hugely
Policies were put in place by Labour to start to control these numbers
Creating a hostile environment was proposed by the Labour Immigration Minster in 2007
Additional policy was created after that
2012 Theresa May enacted the hostile environment policy

So in 2022, I find it quite when Labour supporters or MPs simply point at and blame the 2012 action and nothing else.

I find it boring that you nor anyone else here (WWSPD comes close to) can take your partisan glasses off for a moment and realise that this was a problem that both parties were seeking to resolve and that is what Gove is saying. The fact that Labour got ousted doesn’t prove anything. The trend & patterns are there you to see.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
😂😂😂 I’m not a Labour supporter!!!!
Honestly what a bizarre accusation. Any support I had for Labour evaporated in 2003. I mean, they recently selected a member of the orange order to stand in the elections up here; and you suggest I am a supporter?!?! Deary me.

I’m left of centre socially and open to immigration (being married to an immigrant and the son of an immigrant that should hardly come as a surprise) as I see it as a net benefit to me personally and to the communities I have lived in.

I didn’t call you a Labour supporter

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don’t like it when you act condescendingly. Now you will say, as you do quite regularly, that you apologise and don’t mean to come across that way et cetera.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You were clearly entrenched so I tried to lighten the mood by taking a jibe at a Labour peer 🤷‍♂️ I can’t help it if you didn’t take it in jest.

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don’t like it when you act condescendingly. Now you will say, as you do quite regularly, that you apologise and don’t mean to come across that way et cetera.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You were clearly entrenched so I tried to lighten the mood by taking a jibe at a Labour peer 🤷‍♂️ I can’t help it if you didn’t take it in jest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your sense of humour leaves a lot to be desired in that case. But I refer more to lexical choices such as floundering

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 42 seconds ago
I didn’t call you a Labour supporter

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, so when you said in reply directly to a post by me;


“So in 2022, I find it quite when Labour supporters or MPs simply point at and blame the 2012 action and nothing else.”

That was not suggesting that I was a Labour supporter? Or suggesting I was not taking my “partisan glasses” off? What party’s glasses were you suggesting I was wearing?

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don’t like it when you act condescendingly. Now you will say, as you do quite regularly, that you apologise and don’t mean to come across that way et cetera.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You were clearly entrenched so I tried to lighten the mood by taking a jibe at a Labour peer 🤷‍♂️ I can’t help it if you didn’t take it in jest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your sense of humour leaves a lot to be desired in that case. But I refer more to lexical choices such as floundering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hence why I tried to lighten the mood!

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 42 seconds ago
I didn’t call you a Labour supporter

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, so when you said in reply directly to a post by me;


“So in 2022, I find it quite when Labour supporters or MPs simply point at and blame the 2012 action and nothing else.”

That was not suggesting that I was a Labour supporter? Or suggesting I was not taking my “partisan glasses” off? What party’s glasses were you suggesting I was wearing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-conservative glasses?

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
Now Satters, if you were in a “flinging mud at Labour while doing mental gymnastics” mood, I am surprised you haven’t picked up on the entertaining scolding that a Labour Lord received from a conservative minister for falling asleep during a debate but then trying to speak on it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don’t like it when you act condescendingly. Now you will say, as you do quite regularly, that you apologise and don’t mean to come across that way et cetera.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You were clearly entrenched so I tried to lighten the mood by taking a jibe at a Labour peer 🤷‍♂️ I can’t help it if you didn’t take it in jest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your sense of humour leaves a lot to be desired in that case. But I refer more to lexical choices such as floundering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hence why I tried to lighten the mood!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you use condescending language then try to lighten the mood? Ok makes sense

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 6 minutes ago
TBF I think even Sat Nav will appreciate the irony of him calling someone else condescending
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it. But rarely do I start with it. Have a look at my exchange with WWSPD as an example.

Anyway, I hope that I have made clear the problem, the cause of the problem and the inception of dealing with the problem being continued through to today whereby I find it amusing when Labour supporters or MPs have selective memories.