Ok, I disagree with this but let's run with it. So we have an overrepresentarion in regards to players and therefore there is an underrepresentarion in regards to coaches and managers. Would this therefore not prove the point?
----------------------
Nope, if you check the visual then you'll see that both Type A and Type B demographics start with 10% having the ability to coach.
All of that 10% make it through to pro football.
The only difference is that proportionally more Type B non-coaches make it through to pro football, for the reason that they physically are superior on average.
As soon as you select for the coaches in pro football, the statistical representation of each demographic returns back to its general population levels.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean somebody manipulated the stats to make three white players quicker? Seems like a thankless task to me. What was the person hoping to achieve with this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan James is white. Is Foden seriously quicker?
You have to admit it's an unexpected list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never really seen James play, certainly haven't noticed him being super quick.
Lists of fastest players in a season are often unexpected perhaps due to the bias in your mind. Some players are tall and move quicker than they seem due to long strides, some are short and seem like they move quicker due to shorter strides, for example but it seems like we're moving away from the original point here.
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 1 minute ago
Ok, I disagree with this but let's run with it. So we have an overrepresentarion in regards to players and therefore there is an underrepresentarion in regards to coaches and managers. Would this therefore not prove the point?
----------------------
Nope, if you check the visual then you'll see that both Type A and Type B demographics start with 10% having the ability to coach.
All of that 10% make it through to pro football.
The only difference is that proportionally more Type B non-coaches make it through to pro football, for the reason that they physically are superior on average.
As soon as you select for the coaches in pro football, the statistical representation of each demographic returns back to its general population levels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
---------------------------
It evens out for the exact reason shown in the visual. The same proportion of people who want and have the ability to go into coaching, will end up in coaching. People who don't have the ability to coach are filtered back out of the system. The over-representation (which is entirely caused by non-coach types making their way into football) is negated.
You can adjust my imaginary ratios with real-life figures and the outcome will still be the same.
We can argue about the assumptions but the maths literally demonstrates that this phenomenon is possible.
What also backs it up somewhat is the following figures which I found from 2012:
-black representation in general population - 3-5%
-black representation in coaching badges - ~5%
-black representation in pro football - 25%
-black representation in football management - 2-4%
My visual explains why you can have this consistent 2-5% representation across the board, but have a spike of 25% representation in the football league.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're comparing representation in a sport to group percentages within a population which is deeply flawed.
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 29 seconds ago
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
---------------------------
It evens out for the exact reason shown in the visual. The same proportion of people who want and have the ability to go into coaching, will end up in coaching. People who don't have the ability to coach are filtered back out of the system. The over-representation (which is entirely caused by non-coach types making their way into football) is negated.
You can adjust my imaginary ratios with real-life figures and the outcome will still be the same.
We can argue about the assumptions but the maths literally demonstrates that this phenomenon is possible.
What also backs it up somewhat is the following figures which I found from 2012:
-black representation in general population - 3-5%
-black representation in coaching badges - ~5%
-black representation in pro football - 25%
-black representation in football management - 2-4%
My visual explains why you can have this consistent 2-5% representation across the board, but have a spike of 25% representation in the football league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're comparing representation in a sport to group percentages within a population which is deeply flawed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But when you compare representation in management to group percentages of players it isn't?
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
---------
It evens out because the over-representation was entirely due to players that can't coach.
Once you go about hiring managers from the pool of players that have the ability to coach, then these non-coaches get filtered out.
In the example I provided, it's 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches IN. 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches OUT. The over-representation was caused entirely by the non-coach types, once management filters them out then the numbers return to population levels. Each of the rows represent a single person.
Of course I assumed that 100% of the coach types make it into management. In reality it might be 50%, or 10%, or 1%. Whatever. The ratio doesn't matter as long as it's consistent across the board.
Now I'm not ruling out racism being a factor in Football League hiring decisions, I'm just saying that statistically, I would not expect more than 5-6 black managers in the Football League at any one time. Not 20+.
The fact we're currently falling short of that might be an argument for proof of racism, or it could be that there's a time delay between black players making it as black managers. If a PL player's average age is 25 and a manager's average age is 40, then we need to wait 15 years for the former to be reflected in the latter. I'm not too clued up on the why, I'm just interested in demonstrating that there's a perfectly logical mathematical explanation for why representation isn't necessarily uniform across the board.
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 7 minutes ago
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
---------
It evens out because the over-representation was entirely due to players that can't coach.
Once you go about hiring managers from the pool of players that have the ability to coach, then these non-coaches get filtered out.
In the example I provided, it's 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches IN. 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches OUT. The over-representation was caused entirely by the non-coach types, once management filters them out then the numbers return to population levels. Each of the rows represent a single person.
Of course I assumed that 100% of the coach types make it into management. In reality it might be 50%, or 10%, or 1%. Whatever. The ratio doesn't matter as long as it's consistent across the board.
Now I'm not ruling out racism being a factor in Football League hiring decisions, I'm just saying that statistically, I would not expect more than 5-6 black managers in the Football League at any one time. Not 20+.
The fact we're currently falling short of that might be an argument for proof of racism, or it could be that there's a time delay between black players making it as black managers. If a PL player's average age is 25 and a manager's average age is 40, then we need to wait 15 years for the former to be reflected in the latter. I'm not too clued up on the why, I'm just interested in demonstrating that there's a perfectly logical mathematical explanation for why representation isn't necessarily uniform across the board.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I feel continuing this would just be repeating myself. I'll agree to disagree.
OK, it's been a good discussion
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you said there are less black players in the more technical leagues and then moved onto physicality as the reason.
Now aside of that being not true (See Scotland, France, Russia and Holland as examples of both sides showing that to be false) you have based it on tropes.
There are more black players in France and England rather than Spain amd Italy for the simple reason on language and the latter two having repeated problems with racism towards black players within their leagues.
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you said there are less black players in the more technical leagues and then moved onto physicality as the reason.
Now aside of that being not true (See Scotland, France, Russia and Holland as examples of both sides showing that to be false) you have based it on tropes.
There are more black players in France and England rather than Spain amd Italy for the simple reason on language and the latter two having repeated problems with racism towards black players within their leagues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Black players from Europe and south America are technically orientated. Players from Africa not as much, coaching not on the same level over there.
As far as Spain and Italy, the racism there doesn't stop black south americans going there.
Even your tropes are demonstrably wrong. Carroll and Mane. Keita and Mata. White players being just as fast if not faster.
In terms of black south Americans going to Spain and Italy we go back to language and culture.
It bollox mate.
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
You Im just running through all the famous African players I can think of in the prem and they all have tekkers
Okocha, Yeboah, Kanu, Drogba, Mane, Salah, Auba, Keita, Diouf, Toure, Essien...
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 23 seconds ago
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think this helps?
Its from 2018 but here's the distance covered stats.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
Maybe black Africans are lazy.
This thread has been both an education and a chuckle fest in equal measure...I love the utter indignance people display...
An example could be Wanyama. Physical but not technically great. Such players can do well in England, but would struggle in other leagues.
Fellaini is another one. Not black but brought to the league due to physicality. Teams in Spain wouldn't be interested in such a player.
You're right, there are white players with similar traits, but that doesn't explain why some teams go for African players when they could recruit english.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 9 minutes ago
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jordan Henderson and Frank Lampard are two that spring to mind. Kante is helped by the fact that he is small and pops up everywhere I guess
And by being the best defensive midfielder in the world
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Its from 2018 but here's the distance covered stats.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
Maybe black Africans are lazy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't state the average, so players who have played more minutes will obviously fare better.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
An example could be Wanyama. Physical but not technically great. Such players can do well in England, but would struggle in other leagues.
Fellaini is another one. Not black but brought to the league due to physicality. Teams in Spain wouldn't be interested in such a player.
You're right, there are white players with similar traits, but that doesn't explain why some teams go for African players when they could recruit english.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they're cheaper.
Im not trying to have a pop but Ive shown other leagues that refute your statement, players that refute your statement, stats that refute your statement and cultural connections that refute your statement.
Maradonna grew up playing with a fvcking orange. If anything it helps technique
This has been put to bed imo.
Sign in if you want to comment
Black managers
Page 11 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13
posted on 10/6/20
Ok, I disagree with this but let's run with it. So we have an overrepresentarion in regards to players and therefore there is an underrepresentarion in regards to coaches and managers. Would this therefore not prove the point?
----------------------
Nope, if you check the visual then you'll see that both Type A and Type B demographics start with 10% having the ability to coach.
All of that 10% make it through to pro football.
The only difference is that proportionally more Type B non-coaches make it through to pro football, for the reason that they physically are superior on average.
As soon as you select for the coaches in pro football, the statistical representation of each demographic returns back to its general population levels.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean somebody manipulated the stats to make three white players quicker? Seems like a thankless task to me. What was the person hoping to achieve with this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan James is white. Is Foden seriously quicker?
You have to admit it's an unexpected list.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never really seen James play, certainly haven't noticed him being super quick.
Lists of fastest players in a season are often unexpected perhaps due to the bias in your mind. Some players are tall and move quicker than they seem due to long strides, some are short and seem like they move quicker due to shorter strides, for example but it seems like we're moving away from the original point here.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 1 minute ago
Ok, I disagree with this but let's run with it. So we have an overrepresentarion in regards to players and therefore there is an underrepresentarion in regards to coaches and managers. Would this therefore not prove the point?
----------------------
Nope, if you check the visual then you'll see that both Type A and Type B demographics start with 10% having the ability to coach.
All of that 10% make it through to pro football.
The only difference is that proportionally more Type B non-coaches make it through to pro football, for the reason that they physically are superior on average.
As soon as you select for the coaches in pro football, the statistical representation of each demographic returns back to its general population levels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
posted on 10/6/20
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
---------------------------
It evens out for the exact reason shown in the visual. The same proportion of people who want and have the ability to go into coaching, will end up in coaching. People who don't have the ability to coach are filtered back out of the system. The over-representation (which is entirely caused by non-coach types making their way into football) is negated.
You can adjust my imaginary ratios with real-life figures and the outcome will still be the same.
We can argue about the assumptions but the maths literally demonstrates that this phenomenon is possible.
What also backs it up somewhat is the following figures which I found from 2012:
-black representation in general population - 3-5%
-black representation in coaching badges - ~5%
-black representation in pro football - 25%
-black representation in football management - 2-4%
My visual explains why you can have this consistent 2-5% representation across the board, but have a spike of 25% representation in the football league.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're comparing representation in a sport to group percentages within a population which is deeply flawed.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 29 seconds ago
But it shouldn't return back to population levels as population doesn't tell the story about chances for black players within football. What has actually happened tells you this.
Saying there is an over representation due to physical prowess is woefully flawed. There are many things to consider, in regards to players making it into the league, mentality, dedication, technique, coaching etc etc. Saying this perceived over representation then evens out when the player retires is again flawed. Why would it even out, due to population percentages? Surely if there's an over representation to begin with, then it would stay that way?
---------------------------
It evens out for the exact reason shown in the visual. The same proportion of people who want and have the ability to go into coaching, will end up in coaching. People who don't have the ability to coach are filtered back out of the system. The over-representation (which is entirely caused by non-coach types making their way into football) is negated.
You can adjust my imaginary ratios with real-life figures and the outcome will still be the same.
We can argue about the assumptions but the maths literally demonstrates that this phenomenon is possible.
What also backs it up somewhat is the following figures which I found from 2012:
-black representation in general population - 3-5%
-black representation in coaching badges - ~5%
-black representation in pro football - 25%
-black representation in football management - 2-4%
My visual explains why you can have this consistent 2-5% representation across the board, but have a spike of 25% representation in the football league.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're comparing representation in a sport to group percentages within a population which is deeply flawed.
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But when you compare representation in management to group percentages of players it isn't?
posted on 10/6/20
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
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It evens out because the over-representation was entirely due to players that can't coach.
Once you go about hiring managers from the pool of players that have the ability to coach, then these non-coaches get filtered out.
In the example I provided, it's 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches IN. 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches OUT. The over-representation was caused entirely by the non-coach types, once management filters them out then the numbers return to population levels. Each of the rows represent a single person.
Of course I assumed that 100% of the coach types make it into management. In reality it might be 50%, or 10%, or 1%. Whatever. The ratio doesn't matter as long as it's consistent across the board.
Now I'm not ruling out racism being a factor in Football League hiring decisions, I'm just saying that statistically, I would not expect more than 5-6 black managers in the Football League at any one time. Not 20+.
The fact we're currently falling short of that might be an argument for proof of racism, or it could be that there's a time delay between black players making it as black managers. If a PL player's average age is 25 and a manager's average age is 40, then we need to wait 15 years for the former to be reflected in the latter. I'm not too clued up on the why, I'm just interested in demonstrating that there's a perfectly logical mathematical explanation for why representation isn't necessarily uniform across the board.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 7 minutes ago
No I understand the figures and I understand your reasoning. What I'm saying is that there is no logical reason why a perceived over representation in terms of players then evens out. Why does it even out? Why do we then return to population when there is already a perceived over representation in the sport? Surely the pool we choose from comes from this representation and not the population? Therefore in theory, in regards to this perception, there should be an over representation in terms of coaches and managers and yet the percentage drops, in real life.
---------
It evens out because the over-representation was entirely due to players that can't coach.
Once you go about hiring managers from the pool of players that have the ability to coach, then these non-coaches get filtered out.
In the example I provided, it's 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches IN. 10 Type A coaches / 2 Type B coaches OUT. The over-representation was caused entirely by the non-coach types, once management filters them out then the numbers return to population levels. Each of the rows represent a single person.
Of course I assumed that 100% of the coach types make it into management. In reality it might be 50%, or 10%, or 1%. Whatever. The ratio doesn't matter as long as it's consistent across the board.
Now I'm not ruling out racism being a factor in Football League hiring decisions, I'm just saying that statistically, I would not expect more than 5-6 black managers in the Football League at any one time. Not 20+.
The fact we're currently falling short of that might be an argument for proof of racism, or it could be that there's a time delay between black players making it as black managers. If a PL player's average age is 25 and a manager's average age is 40, then we need to wait 15 years for the former to be reflected in the latter. I'm not too clued up on the why, I'm just interested in demonstrating that there's a perfectly logical mathematical explanation for why representation isn't necessarily uniform across the board.
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Yeah I feel continuing this would just be repeating myself. I'll agree to disagree.
posted on 10/6/20
OK, it's been a good discussion
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
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Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
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I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
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Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
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Because you said there are less black players in the more technical leagues and then moved onto physicality as the reason.
Now aside of that being not true (See Scotland, France, Russia and Holland as examples of both sides showing that to be false) you have based it on tropes.
There are more black players in France and England rather than Spain amd Italy for the simple reason on language and the latter two having repeated problems with racism towards black players within their leagues.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Holland and Germany have loads of black players.
Mane, Salah and Keita all have great tekkers.
Top three fastest players in the Prem are white.
It's such a bollox statement. Probably best to hold your hands up to this one.
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Do they have the same percentage of black players?
Also that list of fastest players looks dodgy. I would expect Dan James to be on it and Rashford.
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I doubt Holland is far off but France certainly does and I'd suggest that's much more to do with language (in that pretty much every African country speaks English or French due to colonialism) than physicality.
I find your statement racist tbh.
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Which part?
Would you say the NBA and NFL are over represented by black players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you said there are less black players in the more technical leagues and then moved onto physicality as the reason.
Now aside of that being not true (See Scotland, France, Russia and Holland as examples of both sides showing that to be false) you have based it on tropes.
There are more black players in France and England rather than Spain amd Italy for the simple reason on language and the latter two having repeated problems with racism towards black players within their leagues.
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Black players from Europe and south America are technically orientated. Players from Africa not as much, coaching not on the same level over there.
As far as Spain and Italy, the racism there doesn't stop black south americans going there.
posted on 10/6/20
Even your tropes are demonstrably wrong. Carroll and Mane. Keita and Mata. White players being just as fast if not faster.
In terms of black south Americans going to Spain and Italy we go back to language and culture.
It bollox mate.
posted on 10/6/20
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
posted on 10/6/20
You Im just running through all the famous African players I can think of in the prem and they all have tekkers
Okocha, Yeboah, Kanu, Drogba, Mane, Salah, Auba, Keita, Diouf, Toure, Essien...
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 23 seconds ago
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
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Do you think this helps?
posted on 10/6/20
Its from 2018 but here's the distance covered stats.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
Maybe black Africans are lazy.
posted on 10/6/20
This thread has been both an education and a chuckle fest in equal measure...I love the utter indignance people display...
posted on 10/6/20
An example could be Wanyama. Physical but not technically great. Such players can do well in England, but would struggle in other leagues.
Fellaini is another one. Not black but brought to the league due to physicality. Teams in Spain wouldn't be interested in such a player.
You're right, there are white players with similar traits, but that doesn't explain why some teams go for African players when they could recruit english.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 9 minutes ago
Take Kante, often described by pundits as having two engines. Is any white player described this way?
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Jordan Henderson and Frank Lampard are two that spring to mind. Kante is helped by the fact that he is small and pops up everywhere I guess
posted on 10/6/20
And by being the best defensive midfielder in the world
posted on 10/6/20
comment by Robbing Hoody - tell me I can't and I'll show you I can (U6374)
posted 4 minutes ago
Its from 2018 but here's the distance covered stats.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/510837
Maybe black Africans are lazy.
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It doesn't state the average, so players who have played more minutes will obviously fare better.
posted on 10/6/20
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 2 minutes ago
An example could be Wanyama. Physical but not technically great. Such players can do well in England, but would struggle in other leagues.
Fellaini is another one. Not black but brought to the league due to physicality. Teams in Spain wouldn't be interested in such a player.
You're right, there are white players with similar traits, but that doesn't explain why some teams go for African players when they could recruit english.
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Because they're cheaper.
Im not trying to have a pop but Ive shown other leagues that refute your statement, players that refute your statement, stats that refute your statement and cultural connections that refute your statement.
Maradonna grew up playing with a fvcking orange. If anything it helps technique
This has been put to bed imo.
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