comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Watch the little fecking weasels call me a racist with no actual evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have no evidence you’re racist. But plenty that you’re an ignorant cant who can’t see past his own nose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignorant..don't be daft. More the fact you actually believe the bollox the media spew. Bet you didn't even look at what that caaant Gary Mcfarlane had to say because it doesn't suit your narrative
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Watch the little fecking weasels call me a racist with no actual evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have no evidence you’re racist. But plenty that you’re an ignorant cant who can’t see past his own nose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignorant..don't be daft. More the fact you actually believe the bollox the media spew. Bet you didn't even look at what that caaant Gary Mcfarlane had to say because it doesn't suit your narrative
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What bollox is that?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
I wish there was a less cumbersome word we could use for 'anti-anti-racist'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I just say though that being anti-BLM does not make you anti-anti-racism. They make some pretty broad & sweeping statements as if they are fact when in fact they are not.
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
Guess what? Black people are sick and tired of racist BS.
Feck the knee? No feck your fragile feelings.
comment by Automatic For The People #BLM (U21889)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
Guess what? Black people are sick and tired of racist BS.
Feck the knee? No feck your fragile feelings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragile
You are the one who cries racism at any given opportunity
Dizzee Rascal giving it to back to Piers Morgan about what BlackLivesMatters might or might not mean to him on GMB
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
Sat Nav
No, it’s just shockingly naive to suggest that changing Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter Too will make a difference.
BLM isn’t about making it accessible for everyone, that clearly is never going to happen. It’s making plenty of people uncomfortable and making them think and reevaluate their privilege which has been great. This is never going to be fixed in a matter of days it months, if ever but adding ‘too’ to the name completely misses the point.
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 26 minutes ago
You’re sick and tired of the anti-racism ‘rhetoric’?
Two things that I really don’t get on ja606 recently. Posters acting like anti-racism movements are a ‘bandwagon’, ‘virtue signalling’ and so they’re apparently tired of all this anti-racism. And as I’ve said other times on this thread, the constant whataboutery which would never be said for any other arguments for basic human moral rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said, not getting what this is about is an act of volition. It's about not WANTING to get it. Of course they aren't stupid, they're just intentionally obtuse.
It's too uncomfortable for some.
Britain is absolutely, definitely not the worst place to be if you're an ethnic minority, regardless of which minority that is, but all that means is that it's a lot worse elsewhere. It does NOT mean Britain doesn't have a problem that ought to be addressed.
Ultranationalists seem to think that because it's not the worst, people who do suffer discrimination on a regular basis ought to pipe down and be grateful. They have a national mythology that is so dear to them that seeing it brought under scrutiny rocks the foundations of their worldview. This, inevitably, supplies a platform for those wishing to take it to the next level of "go back to your own country if you don't like it."
It doesn't help, obviously, that people who might in other circumstances be more willing to lend it some thought are being dogwhistled several times a day through social media either.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 3 seconds ago
Sat Nav
No, it’s just shockingly naive to suggest that changing Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter Too will make a difference.
BLM isn’t about making it accessible for everyone, that clearly is never going to happen. It’s making plenty of people uncomfortable and making them think and reevaluate their privilege which has been great. This is never going to be fixed in a matter of days it months, if ever but adding ‘too’ to the name completely misses the point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you’re missing the point. No-one has implied that adding the word too fixes the problem or that the problem will be fixed in a month or a day?
Why do people think that making up a ridiculous opposing view, that is not the actual opposing view, and then proceeding to counter the made up ridiculous view, is actually a worthwhile venture? Honestly to quote a favoured movie character of mine: “ did IQ drop sharply whilst I was away?”
Have you read the posts regarding the name change? Your post suggest that you didn’t so maybe go and do that and then come back to me and if you are unwilling to do so as it is a long thread then maybe don’t make mocking posts about people suggesting an idea with the aim of benefitting said cause. Even if the name change doesn’t realise any, any positive effect whatsoever; are you seriously telling me that discussing the possibility, with the intention of providing a more successful message to those whom BLM want to convince, is worthy of being mocked, misrepresented and ridiculed?
Yet another example of why so many people don’t talk about racism in the first place, especially in this country, is that their views get completely attacked and misrepresented so they don’t have the conversation and it’s people like you and many others that achieve that, well done.
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
white people must be reavaluating their privilege in Burnley
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 26 minutes ago
You’re sick and tired of the anti-racism ‘rhetoric’?
Two things that I really don’t get on ja606 recently. Posters acting like anti-racism movements are a ‘bandwagon’, ‘virtue signalling’ and so they’re apparently tired of all this anti-racism. And as I’ve said other times on this thread, the constant whataboutery which would never be said for any other arguments for basic human moral rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said, not getting what this is about is an act of volition. It's about not WANTING to get it. Of course they aren't stupid, they're just intentionally obtuse.
It's too uncomfortable for some.
Britain is absolutely, definitely not the worst place to be if you're an ethnic minority, regardless of which minority that is, but all that means is that it's a lot worse elsewhere. It does NOT mean Britain doesn't have a problem that ought to be addressed.
Ultranationalists seem to think that because it's not the worst, people who do suffer discrimination on a regular basis ought to pipe down and be grateful. They have a national mythology that is so dear to them that seeing it brought under scrutiny rocks the foundations of their worldview. This, inevitably, supplies a platform for those wishing to take it to the next level of "go back to your own country if you don't like it."
It doesn't help, obviously, that people who might in other circumstances be more willing to lend it some thought are being dogwhistled several times a day through social media either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair comments mate
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn’t mean free from the consequences of what we say.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/burnley-fan-claims-responsibility-white-22236653
Yep he’s a racist Tommy Robinson fanboy.
What a surprise.
Now banned from Burnley for life.
Sat Nav
So you think of all of a sudden the name is altered it will help things? Of course it wouldn’t, it would be scrutinised and ridiculed. BLM works and is very clear if someone is willing to understand, if they’re not then they’re highly unlikely to change their view if the name is altered slightly. Like I said, BLM will never change the views of many.
I'm not sure everyone who is pushing back against anti-racism expressions and movements - I'm sure many of them in good faith, and not considering themselves prejudiced people - fully understand what they are against.
When the confrontational protests happened in the States, black people were told they should protest more peacefully. But when Kaepernick took the knee, the political Right was outraged and he was unable to work in the NFL again. So it's not really about the manner of protest.
It's a defensive mechanism. With some people, I guess it's a reluctance to give up privilege. With radicalised, political racists that tends to be because those don't have very much to be proud of individually, and considering themselves to be racially superior gives them some sense of status. At the other end of the scale, are think there are those who just find it uncomfortable 'going there' and who, like a poster earlier in this thread, interpret appeals for equal treatment and critiques of systemic racism as an "implication that the vast majority of white people are racist", which really isn't the message that BLM is putting out (before it is filtered through the press and social media).
One other thing: there are millions of decent people with blind spots on this, but there is also a seam of bad faith arguments and disinformation out there poisoning the discussion we could be having as a society. Disinformation includes fake and manipulated, decontextualised stats that attempt to hide the reality of racial inequity in organisations and societies. A great example of a bad faith argument was the Twitter storm the other day where a left-wing Muslim woman posted a photo of herself in the park featuring three orange objects (including the lolly she was eating) and put three orange emojis in the tweet; in response, lots of people were claiming the three emojis were mocking the three people stabbed in Reading. The mental gymnastics to justify this included "oranges are a symbol used to foreshadow death in the Godfather films". But the photo was taken before the attacks... "Ah, but it was *posted* after the attacks!" But at the time the tweet was posted there weren't any details about the victims, or the motive, and she hasn't ever indicated support for terrorism before, and anyway how would she know to incorporate an obscure reference to death in the photo in advance? "SHE KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING!" The point isn't that there are cranks who believe this stuff - there are conspiratorial idiots across the political spectrum. The point is, anyone interacting with that discussion could easily see the counter arguments and use their common sense, and hundreds selectively only assimilated the mad accusations and repeated them. And that's the kind of bad faith activity that enables someone who isn't watching closely to get the impression that anti-white racism is just as much a thing, and that flying a White Lives Matter banner over a football match is a good idea.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well its not incorrect. Freedom of speech allows people to call others racist and prats. Just as it allows people to denigrate any discussion by referring to people as communists, terrorist sympathisers etc when they disagree with them.
If you don't like it, perhaps you don't actually want freedom of speech. If you only want a higher quality of debate, then it isn't actually freedom of speech that is your issue.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 2 minutes ago
Sat Nav
So you think of all of a sudden the name is altered it will help things? Of course it wouldn’t, it would be scrutinised and ridiculed. BLM works and is very clear if someone is willing to understand, if they’re not then they’re highly unlikely to change their view if the name is altered slightly. Like I said, BLM will never change the views of many.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ve gone over this several times during the thread but seeing as you cannot be bothered to read through them all (it is a long thread) I will summarise hopefully succinctly:
There will be some people who don’t have a strong opinion but when they encounter the name/slogan of BLM they might (rightly or wrongly) misinterpret that and take it slightly negatively and then not look into it in more depth.
Adding the ‘too’ (which is only one suggestion there might be better out there) completely negates any potential negative thoughts about the movement based purely on the slogan
Basing ones opinion purely on a slogan is silly but it’s a reality that a lot of people do
If changing the name stops some, just some people from misinterpreting the slogan and if changing the name invites some more people in, just some, then I think we would have some more people looking into the matter critically, reading what BLMT has to say and perhaps changing their behaviours towards people.
It is BLM’s choice as it is their movement
So, no. I don’t think that a name change is going to magically eradicate racism in a day or a month. I simply pondered whether a name change could change some, just some people’s approach to the entire subject.
Is that good enough for you now? Good.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well its not incorrect. Freedom of speech allows people to call others racist and prats. Just as it allows people to denigrate any discussion by referring to people as communists, terrorist sympathisers etc when they disagree with them.
If you don't like it, perhaps you don't actually want freedom of speech. If you only want a higher quality of debate, then it isn't actually freedom of speech that is your issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The key word was liberal not the freedom of speech that you’re focusing on. Yes I do want better debate but my point was at the modern day liberals who throw insults at people for having a different viewpoint. He said nothing that justified being called a racist.
'Black lives matter too' would make it rhetorically harder for enemies of the movement's objectives to cynically misrepresent what the slogan means. To that extent, I think Sat Nav has a point. But the fundamental problem is the cynical denial of the realities of racism and the cynical misrepresentation of the struggle against it. I'm afraid that with every such concession the concerted efforts to undermine that struggle would just shift to another target.
RR - what stats are being taken out of context and manipulated? I genuinely want to know because I base a lot of my opinion on facts & figures so if any of them don’t hold up then I’d really like to know.
Just any that you’ve come across and have demonstrated to be flawed, don’t need every example 😀
But I honestly don’t think it would, you do and fair enough. I personally think it’s rather native to think that people who don’t get the BLM name are willing to change their mind with a slight name change. Also, the name Black Lives Matter Too (I understand this was just a suggestion) lacks the impact of just Black Lives Matter, it sounds like some middle class version that wants everyone to be nice.
Sign in if you want to comment
Plane over Etihad
Page 15 of 26
16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Watch the little fecking weasels call me a racist with no actual evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have no evidence you’re racist. But plenty that you’re an ignorant cant who can’t see past his own nose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignorant..don't be daft. More the fact you actually believe the bollox the media spew. Bet you didn't even look at what that caaant Gary Mcfarlane had to say because it doesn't suit your narrative
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Watch the little fecking weasels call me a racist with no actual evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have no evidence you’re racist. But plenty that you’re an ignorant cant who can’t see past his own nose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ignorant..don't be daft. More the fact you actually believe the bollox the media spew. Bet you didn't even look at what that caaant Gary Mcfarlane had to say because it doesn't suit your narrative
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What bollox is that?
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 34 minutes ago
I wish there was a less cumbersome word we could use for 'anti-anti-racist'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I just say though that being anti-BLM does not make you anti-anti-racism. They make some pretty broad & sweeping statements as if they are fact when in fact they are not.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
Guess what? Black people are sick and tired of racist BS.
Feck the knee? No feck your fragile feelings.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Automatic For The People #BLM (U21889)
posted 20 seconds ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Robb Sancho (U22311)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Manc Python (U17527)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago
comment by goadocwatson (U1016)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Obviously someone sick and tired of .all the BLM rhetoric.Many people are now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet you're not sick and tired of the BMP, EDL or NF rhetoric you prat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I am also sick and tired of this BLM rhetoric. Feck the knee.
Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
Guess what? Black people are sick and tired of racist BS.
Feck the knee? No feck your fragile feelings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragile
You are the one who cries racism at any given opportunity
posted on 23/6/20
Dizzee Rascal giving it to back to Piers Morgan about what BlackLivesMatters might or might not mean to him on GMB
posted on 23/6/20
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
posted on 23/6/20
Sat Nav
No, it’s just shockingly naive to suggest that changing Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter Too will make a difference.
BLM isn’t about making it accessible for everyone, that clearly is never going to happen. It’s making plenty of people uncomfortable and making them think and reevaluate their privilege which has been great. This is never going to be fixed in a matter of days it months, if ever but adding ‘too’ to the name completely misses the point.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 26 minutes ago
You’re sick and tired of the anti-racism ‘rhetoric’?
Two things that I really don’t get on ja606 recently. Posters acting like anti-racism movements are a ‘bandwagon’, ‘virtue signalling’ and so they’re apparently tired of all this anti-racism. And as I’ve said other times on this thread, the constant whataboutery which would never be said for any other arguments for basic human moral rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said, not getting what this is about is an act of volition. It's about not WANTING to get it. Of course they aren't stupid, they're just intentionally obtuse.
It's too uncomfortable for some.
Britain is absolutely, definitely not the worst place to be if you're an ethnic minority, regardless of which minority that is, but all that means is that it's a lot worse elsewhere. It does NOT mean Britain doesn't have a problem that ought to be addressed.
Ultranationalists seem to think that because it's not the worst, people who do suffer discrimination on a regular basis ought to pipe down and be grateful. They have a national mythology that is so dear to them that seeing it brought under scrutiny rocks the foundations of their worldview. This, inevitably, supplies a platform for those wishing to take it to the next level of "go back to your own country if you don't like it."
It doesn't help, obviously, that people who might in other circumstances be more willing to lend it some thought are being dogwhistled several times a day through social media either.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 3 seconds ago
Sat Nav
No, it’s just shockingly naive to suggest that changing Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter Too will make a difference.
BLM isn’t about making it accessible for everyone, that clearly is never going to happen. It’s making plenty of people uncomfortable and making them think and reevaluate their privilege which has been great. This is never going to be fixed in a matter of days it months, if ever but adding ‘too’ to the name completely misses the point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you’re missing the point. No-one has implied that adding the word too fixes the problem or that the problem will be fixed in a month or a day?
Why do people think that making up a ridiculous opposing view, that is not the actual opposing view, and then proceeding to counter the made up ridiculous view, is actually a worthwhile venture? Honestly to quote a favoured movie character of mine: “ did IQ drop sharply whilst I was away?”
Have you read the posts regarding the name change? Your post suggest that you didn’t so maybe go and do that and then come back to me and if you are unwilling to do so as it is a long thread then maybe don’t make mocking posts about people suggesting an idea with the aim of benefitting said cause. Even if the name change doesn’t realise any, any positive effect whatsoever; are you seriously telling me that discussing the possibility, with the intention of providing a more successful message to those whom BLM want to convince, is worthy of being mocked, misrepresented and ridiculed?
Yet another example of why so many people don’t talk about racism in the first place, especially in this country, is that their views get completely attacked and misrepresented so they don’t have the conversation and it’s people like you and many others that achieve that, well done.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
posted on 23/6/20
white people must be reavaluating their privilege in Burnley
posted on 23/6/20
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by Kunta Kante (U1641)
posted 26 minutes ago
You’re sick and tired of the anti-racism ‘rhetoric’?
Two things that I really don’t get on ja606 recently. Posters acting like anti-racism movements are a ‘bandwagon’, ‘virtue signalling’ and so they’re apparently tired of all this anti-racism. And as I’ve said other times on this thread, the constant whataboutery which would never be said for any other arguments for basic human moral rights.
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As I said, not getting what this is about is an act of volition. It's about not WANTING to get it. Of course they aren't stupid, they're just intentionally obtuse.
It's too uncomfortable for some.
Britain is absolutely, definitely not the worst place to be if you're an ethnic minority, regardless of which minority that is, but all that means is that it's a lot worse elsewhere. It does NOT mean Britain doesn't have a problem that ought to be addressed.
Ultranationalists seem to think that because it's not the worst, people who do suffer discrimination on a regular basis ought to pipe down and be grateful. They have a national mythology that is so dear to them that seeing it brought under scrutiny rocks the foundations of their worldview. This, inevitably, supplies a platform for those wishing to take it to the next level of "go back to your own country if you don't like it."
It doesn't help, obviously, that people who might in other circumstances be more willing to lend it some thought are being dogwhistled several times a day through social media either.
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Fair comments mate
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
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This.
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Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
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This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
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Free speech doesn’t mean free from the consequences of what we say.
posted on 23/6/20
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/burnley-fan-claims-responsibility-white-22236653
Yep he’s a racist Tommy Robinson fanboy.
What a surprise.
posted on 23/6/20
Now banned from Burnley for life.
posted on 23/6/20
Sat Nav
So you think of all of a sudden the name is altered it will help things? Of course it wouldn’t, it would be scrutinised and ridiculed. BLM works and is very clear if someone is willing to understand, if they’re not then they’re highly unlikely to change their view if the name is altered slightly. Like I said, BLM will never change the views of many.
posted on 23/6/20
I'm not sure everyone who is pushing back against anti-racism expressions and movements - I'm sure many of them in good faith, and not considering themselves prejudiced people - fully understand what they are against.
When the confrontational protests happened in the States, black people were told they should protest more peacefully. But when Kaepernick took the knee, the political Right was outraged and he was unable to work in the NFL again. So it's not really about the manner of protest.
It's a defensive mechanism. With some people, I guess it's a reluctance to give up privilege. With radicalised, political racists that tends to be because those don't have very much to be proud of individually, and considering themselves to be racially superior gives them some sense of status. At the other end of the scale, are think there are those who just find it uncomfortable 'going there' and who, like a poster earlier in this thread, interpret appeals for equal treatment and critiques of systemic racism as an "implication that the vast majority of white people are racist", which really isn't the message that BLM is putting out (before it is filtered through the press and social media).
One other thing: there are millions of decent people with blind spots on this, but there is also a seam of bad faith arguments and disinformation out there poisoning the discussion we could be having as a society. Disinformation includes fake and manipulated, decontextualised stats that attempt to hide the reality of racial inequity in organisations and societies. A great example of a bad faith argument was the Twitter storm the other day where a left-wing Muslim woman posted a photo of herself in the park featuring three orange objects (including the lolly she was eating) and put three orange emojis in the tweet; in response, lots of people were claiming the three emojis were mocking the three people stabbed in Reading. The mental gymnastics to justify this included "oranges are a symbol used to foreshadow death in the Godfather films". But the photo was taken before the attacks... "Ah, but it was *posted* after the attacks!" But at the time the tweet was posted there weren't any details about the victims, or the motive, and she hasn't ever indicated support for terrorism before, and anyway how would she know to incorporate an obscure reference to death in the photo in advance? "SHE KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING!" The point isn't that there are cranks who believe this stuff - there are conspiratorial idiots across the political spectrum. The point is, anyone interacting with that discussion could easily see the counter arguments and use their common sense, and hundreds selectively only assimilated the mad accusations and repeated them. And that's the kind of bad faith activity that enables someone who isn't watching closely to get the impression that anti-white racism is just as much a thing, and that flying a White Lives Matter banner over a football match is a good idea.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
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This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
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Well its not incorrect. Freedom of speech allows people to call others racist and prats. Just as it allows people to denigrate any discussion by referring to people as communists, terrorist sympathisers etc when they disagree with them.
If you don't like it, perhaps you don't actually want freedom of speech. If you only want a higher quality of debate, then it isn't actually freedom of speech that is your issue.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 2 minutes ago
Sat Nav
So you think of all of a sudden the name is altered it will help things? Of course it wouldn’t, it would be scrutinised and ridiculed. BLM works and is very clear if someone is willing to understand, if they’re not then they’re highly unlikely to change their view if the name is altered slightly. Like I said, BLM will never change the views of many.
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We’ve gone over this several times during the thread but seeing as you cannot be bothered to read through them all (it is a long thread) I will summarise hopefully succinctly:
There will be some people who don’t have a strong opinion but when they encounter the name/slogan of BLM they might (rightly or wrongly) misinterpret that and take it slightly negatively and then not look into it in more depth.
Adding the ‘too’ (which is only one suggestion there might be better out there) completely negates any potential negative thoughts about the movement based purely on the slogan
Basing ones opinion purely on a slogan is silly but it’s a reality that a lot of people do
If changing the name stops some, just some people from misinterpreting the slogan and if changing the name invites some more people in, just some, then I think we would have some more people looking into the matter critically, reading what BLMT has to say and perhaps changing their behaviours towards people.
It is BLM’s choice as it is their movement
So, no. I don’t think that a name change is going to magically eradicate racism in a day or a month. I simply pondered whether a name change could change some, just some people’s approach to the entire subject.
Is that good enough for you now? Good.
posted on 23/6/20
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by ...TUX... (U22398)
posted 11 minutes ago
''Once again, someone with a different point of view gets eviscerated. There’s liberal freedom of speech for you.''
---------------------
This.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Free speech doesn't mean you are allowed to say what you want without being challenged. It means you can say what you want, but people can also say what they want back to you. So if your opinion is distasteful, a lot of people can challenge it back.
People who moan about 'liberal free speech', usually mean that they want to be able to say what they want and have nobody disagree with them. What they want is an echo chamber.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. The guy was called and prat and a racist for having a different viewpoint. That’s not challenging his opinion at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well its not incorrect. Freedom of speech allows people to call others racist and prats. Just as it allows people to denigrate any discussion by referring to people as communists, terrorist sympathisers etc when they disagree with them.
If you don't like it, perhaps you don't actually want freedom of speech. If you only want a higher quality of debate, then it isn't actually freedom of speech that is your issue.
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The key word was liberal not the freedom of speech that you’re focusing on. Yes I do want better debate but my point was at the modern day liberals who throw insults at people for having a different viewpoint. He said nothing that justified being called a racist.
posted on 23/6/20
'Black lives matter too' would make it rhetorically harder for enemies of the movement's objectives to cynically misrepresent what the slogan means. To that extent, I think Sat Nav has a point. But the fundamental problem is the cynical denial of the realities of racism and the cynical misrepresentation of the struggle against it. I'm afraid that with every such concession the concerted efforts to undermine that struggle would just shift to another target.
posted on 23/6/20
RR - what stats are being taken out of context and manipulated? I genuinely want to know because I base a lot of my opinion on facts & figures so if any of them don’t hold up then I’d really like to know.
Just any that you’ve come across and have demonstrated to be flawed, don’t need every example 😀
posted on 23/6/20
But I honestly don’t think it would, you do and fair enough. I personally think it’s rather native to think that people who don’t get the BLM name are willing to change their mind with a slight name change. Also, the name Black Lives Matter Too (I understand this was just a suggestion) lacks the impact of just Black Lives Matter, it sounds like some middle class version that wants everyone to be nice.
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