Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
For me, it’s very clear: unlap yourselves or don’t.
There’s no “you four unlap yourselves and, for the rest? Unlucky”.
That was probably the most watched F1 race of all time and that’s how they end it…I bet there are a lot of yanks thinking “NASCARRRRRRRRR”
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Kroenke_out (U21076)
posted 4 minutes ago
I get the moaning about the lapped cars. I don't get the moaning about "advantages being lost" due to the safety cars. It's the rules the apply to every race that involves one.
The alternative is aggregate times which they had in 1994, which has it's own set of problems as a spectacle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is that alternative and its problems?
The rules only state that if the instruction for lapped cars to overtake is given, once all lapped cars have passed the leaders, the safety car will come.in at the end of the following lap
However, the instruction was only given for the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to pass the leader...not all lapped cars
As said, Masi has decided to let them race.....and Mercedes only have themselves to blame, and a bit of bad luck with the timing of the safety car deployment, for the situation Lewis found himself in with his tyres
comment by St3vie (U11028)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted less than a minute ago
Verstappen when told lapped cars cant overtake said ofc ofc, basically accusing people of being bias to hamilton.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...because they usually always do let the lapped cars through, so it wasnt normal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Has Toto given an interview yet? I want to see if he threatens that Mercedes will leave the sport. He / they have been very vocal about that in the past when regulation changes and the like have been under consideration.
Mercedes, as a works team anyway, are not as inextricably linked to F1 as a Ferrari or McLaren.
As above, the rules state that ALL lapped cars, if adjudged safe to do so.
Think about any past precedent: ALL lapped cars or none. In dozens - probably hundreds - of historic occurrences that serve as the foundation of our evidential knowledge.
This, as far as I am aware, is the first and only time that’s it’s been a specific handful of cars. If the rules said “all lapped cars between the leader and second place” then fair enough, but that has simply never been a rule, nor has there been historic precedent.
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 4 minutes ago
Has Toto given an interview yet? I want to see if he threatens that Mercedes will leave the sport. He / they have been very vocal about that in the past when regulation changes and the like have been under consideration.
Mercedes, as a works team anyway, are not as inextricably linked to F1 as a Ferrari or McLaren.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope,he's up in his office
going thru the regulations
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted less than a minute ago
As above, the rules state that ALL lapped cars, if adjudged safe to do so.
Think about any past precedent: ALL lapped cars or none. In dozens - probably hundreds - of historic occurrences that serve as the foundation of our evidential knowledge.
This, as far as I am aware, is the first and only time that’s it’s been a specific handful of cars. If the rules said “all lapped cars between the leader and second place” then fair enough, but that has simply never been a rule, nor has there been historic precedent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think back to SA then
We all heard "a deal" being offered to Red Bull with regards Max restarting behind Hamilton at one of the restarts.
In that situation, the race director etc. decided what was best as it was a one off situation
I don't remember the mass outcry when the race directors took things into their own hands, for the sake of sporting integrity...back then
They do the same here...and it's totally unfair, not against the rules etc...etc..
He let them race, and I'll say again, if Hamilton changed his tyres when Max did before the safety car was deployed, he would have been on better tyres for the end...and if he wasn't just passing the pit lane at the time it was deployed...again, this is all negated
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Where the rule that says the race director has to either let all cars unlap themselves or only some?
To anyone reading the BBC Live Text page - assuming Andrew Benson’s quotes from the regulations are accurate (and that’s a big assumption, knowing him!), then it’s very clear that the decisions taken were a misrepresentation of the rules, on two counts (some not all of lapped cars; timing of the end of the safety car).
On that basis, Merc have solid footing for their appeal. My guess is that somewhere in the regulations is a sort of “deus ex machina” clause in respect of the race director, meaning that he is essentially autonomous insofar as the race decisions are concerned
Stevie,
Article 39.12 of sporting regs says: "If clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all teams, any cars that have been lapped by leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car."
As stated before, I’m assuming Andrew Benson has quoted the regulations correctly, but that clearly states that it’s an all or nothing rule.
Max won, get over it. Hamilton has gotten a fair share going his way.
comment by One Love - Admin 3 (U1250)
posted 5 seconds ago
Max won, get over it. Hamilton has gotten a fair share going his way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a cultured and well-informed response.
It’s obviously a point of contention well worth debating, which is the point of what we do, here. Further evidenced by the fact that Mercedes have levied two appeals.
Absolutely beautiful. An FIA firmly in Mercedes's pocket, two occasions where Verstappen was deliberately taken out by a Mercedes driver, a clearly faster car and yet still the popstar fails to capitalise.
His myth has been well and truly busted. Yet another season where he led the Championship and failed to win it.
Well done Verstappen for showing the world what many of us already knew.
"LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE"
This is the key point.....that wasn't the instruction given....the instruction was for specific cars to overtake, so the instruction given was not the one that is stated in the rule people are quoting and saying was broken
39.12 is also not this years rules...it's 48.12 in this years rules
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Ye, Stevie, I did just state that my quote was on the assumption that Andrew Benson had it correct, which I also stated was a big assumption. Further, the wording is the exact same, so way to embrace the pendant in you!
So, your argument is that Masi delivered an instruction that is not legislated for in the rules? That’s similar to what I was saying in my prediction of the Merc investigation - that Masi as race director will have a full autonomy clause somewhere - but also poses favourably for Mercedes who will inevitably quote that clause.
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Abu Dhabi GP - MAX WDC
Page 24 of 45
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posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
For me, it’s very clear: unlap yourselves or don’t.
There’s no “you four unlap yourselves and, for the rest? Unlucky”.
That was probably the most watched F1 race of all time and that’s how they end it…I bet there are a lot of yanks thinking “NASCARRRRRRRRR”
posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
comment by Kroenke_out (U21076)
posted 4 minutes ago
I get the moaning about the lapped cars. I don't get the moaning about "advantages being lost" due to the safety cars. It's the rules the apply to every race that involves one.
The alternative is aggregate times which they had in 1994, which has it's own set of problems as a spectacle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is that alternative and its problems?
posted on 12/12/21
Masi has to go.
posted on 12/12/21
The rules only state that if the instruction for lapped cars to overtake is given, once all lapped cars have passed the leaders, the safety car will come.in at the end of the following lap
However, the instruction was only given for the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen to pass the leader...not all lapped cars
As said, Masi has decided to let them race.....and Mercedes only have themselves to blame, and a bit of bad luck with the timing of the safety car deployment, for the situation Lewis found himself in with his tyres
posted on 12/12/21
Mercedes have protested
posted on 12/12/21
comment by St3vie (U11028)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted less than a minute ago
Verstappen when told lapped cars cant overtake said ofc ofc, basically accusing people of being bias to hamilton.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...because they usually always do let the lapped cars through, so it wasnt normal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This
posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
Has Toto given an interview yet? I want to see if he threatens that Mercedes will leave the sport. He / they have been very vocal about that in the past when regulation changes and the like have been under consideration.
Mercedes, as a works team anyway, are not as inextricably linked to F1 as a Ferrari or McLaren.
posted on 12/12/21
As above, the rules state that ALL lapped cars, if adjudged safe to do so.
Think about any past precedent: ALL lapped cars or none. In dozens - probably hundreds - of historic occurrences that serve as the foundation of our evidential knowledge.
This, as far as I am aware, is the first and only time that’s it’s been a specific handful of cars. If the rules said “all lapped cars between the leader and second place” then fair enough, but that has simply never been a rule, nor has there been historic precedent.
posted on 12/12/21
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted 4 minutes ago
Has Toto given an interview yet? I want to see if he threatens that Mercedes will leave the sport. He / they have been very vocal about that in the past when regulation changes and the like have been under consideration.
Mercedes, as a works team anyway, are not as inextricably linked to F1 as a Ferrari or McLaren.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope,he's up in his office
going thru the regulations
posted on 12/12/21
comment by rooney_hernandez (U7012)
posted less than a minute ago
As above, the rules state that ALL lapped cars, if adjudged safe to do so.
Think about any past precedent: ALL lapped cars or none. In dozens - probably hundreds - of historic occurrences that serve as the foundation of our evidential knowledge.
This, as far as I am aware, is the first and only time that’s it’s been a specific handful of cars. If the rules said “all lapped cars between the leader and second place” then fair enough, but that has simply never been a rule, nor has there been historic precedent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think back to SA then
We all heard "a deal" being offered to Red Bull with regards Max restarting behind Hamilton at one of the restarts.
In that situation, the race director etc. decided what was best as it was a one off situation
I don't remember the mass outcry when the race directors took things into their own hands, for the sake of sporting integrity...back then
They do the same here...and it's totally unfair, not against the rules etc...etc..
He let them race, and I'll say again, if Hamilton changed his tyres when Max did before the safety car was deployed, he would have been on better tyres for the end...and if he wasn't just passing the pit lane at the time it was deployed...again, this is all negated
posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
Where the rule that says the race director has to either let all cars unlap themselves or only some?
posted on 12/12/21
To anyone reading the BBC Live Text page - assuming Andrew Benson’s quotes from the regulations are accurate (and that’s a big assumption, knowing him!), then it’s very clear that the decisions taken were a misrepresentation of the rules, on two counts (some not all of lapped cars; timing of the end of the safety car).
On that basis, Merc have solid footing for their appeal. My guess is that somewhere in the regulations is a sort of “deus ex machina” clause in respect of the race director, meaning that he is essentially autonomous insofar as the race decisions are concerned
posted on 12/12/21
Stevie,
Article 39.12 of sporting regs says: "If clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all teams, any cars that have been lapped by leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car."
posted on 12/12/21
As stated before, I’m assuming Andrew Benson has quoted the regulations correctly, but that clearly states that it’s an all or nothing rule.
posted on 12/12/21
Max won, get over it. Hamilton has gotten a fair share going his way.
posted on 12/12/21
comment by One Love - Admin 3 (U1250)
posted 5 seconds ago
Max won, get over it. Hamilton has gotten a fair share going his way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a cultured and well-informed response.
It’s obviously a point of contention well worth debating, which is the point of what we do, here. Further evidenced by the fact that Mercedes have levied two appeals.
posted on 12/12/21
Absolutely beautiful. An FIA firmly in Mercedes's pocket, two occasions where Verstappen was deliberately taken out by a Mercedes driver, a clearly faster car and yet still the popstar fails to capitalise.
His myth has been well and truly busted. Yet another season where he led the Championship and failed to win it.
Well done Verstappen for showing the world what many of us already knew.
posted on 12/12/21
"LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE"
This is the key point.....that wasn't the instruction given....the instruction was for specific cars to overtake, so the instruction given was not the one that is stated in the rule people are quoting and saying was broken
39.12 is also not this years rules...it's 48.12 in this years rules
posted on 12/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/12/21
Ye, Stevie, I did just state that my quote was on the assumption that Andrew Benson had it correct, which I also stated was a big assumption. Further, the wording is the exact same, so way to embrace the pendant in you!
So, your argument is that Masi delivered an instruction that is not legislated for in the rules? That’s similar to what I was saying in my prediction of the Merc investigation - that Masi as race director will have a full autonomy clause somewhere - but also poses favourably for Mercedes who will inevitably quote that clause.
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