and frankly...if that's Graham Potter i'll drop my trousers in the high Street...& if you saw our high Street.....
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 6 minutes ago
People love hyperbole don't they...just needs someone to unlock the potential by playing players in the right positions from the start & being more positive thinking about the game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. I feel Southgate has done a good job in many ways, maybe should have gone a tournament earlier, but there’s a great foundation there with some potentially excellent players coming through the ranks.
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 hours, 35 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
Except what the FA have done by looking at what other countries did has been working. Ultimately the fine margins of football has meant we’ve fallen short of winning a trophy, but it’s clearly been a success when you look at England’s football history.
And you’re now moving the goal posts when it’s pointed out to you that the experience you think is needed isn’t actually all that important.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t think I’m moving the goalposts. What I’ve said is
- I don’t think we can simply expect success by copying the appointment process of other nations
- I disagree that the example you have provided of Southgate has been a success when the football has been atrocious and tactically years behind other nations. We got to two finals by avoiding the big nations and failed when we met them
- when you cite other nations appointing inexperienced managers as examples of how it can work I’ve disagreed by suggesting those nations don’t suffer with some of the unique problems we do
Ultimately what I’m advocating for is a root and branch review of English international football - not just looking at what Spain or anyone else does and thinking the same process will work for us
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So we’ve just had three back to back tournaments, where we’ve lost two finals, one on penalties and the other by the odd goal in the ‘86 minute (and we still had one cleared off the line after that), with what many think is our best squad in decades… and you want a root and branch of English football?
Okay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on your perspective, for eg I would say
- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments
- in the first final we had 1 shot on target in 120 minutes at home and blew probably the best chance we’ll have of winning the euros for a long time
- in the second final we were so far behind Spain tactically it was embarrassing and looked scared to have the ball
- We’ve been producing some amazing players regularly since 1966 and never won a thing so having the best squad doesn’t mean winning trophies (cue the golden generation
- Every tournament there seems to be a physical issue with the England players which most pundits agree is exacerbated by the number of games we play in this country compared to other nations
- The weight of expectation and criticism still appears to be affecting the players
So yeah - 58 years without a trophy sounds as good a time as any to dig a little deeper into why we aren’t getting over the line. Or we could just appoint Potter and hope for the best as usual
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 28 minutes ago
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The level of arrogance in your opening paragraph is insane 😂
For reference - I also used the term quality in the same sentence as well as the phrase ‘big teams’ and I did so for this reason - Over the last 40 years Netherlands for example have produced some incredible teams and some very average ones.
The Netherlands team we met has to go down on paper as pretty average compared to where they were in 2008. You might say that’s subjective - but I don’t think they were that great. They were miles behind Spain
The point I’m making - which you already know - is that when we play a quality team (usually one of the big nations) like Spain, like France in 2022, we come up short under Southgate. Every. Single.Time
I actually called for a root and branch review after Iceland so I don’t think I’m being reactionary because I’ve been consistent in saying it.
The point i think you’re missing is this - time and again I’ve been hearing that it’s going to be different next time. In Brazil 2002 when we went out we were excited because of the golden generation and 2006 was going to be our World Cup. I’ve been hearing it for so long.
I think in 2 years time Robbing you’re going to very disappointed when you see that we have a new manager, same group of excellent players and nothing changes
Again, read your first line and stopped reading.
Have a nice day.
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
Again, read your first line and stopped reading.
Have a nice day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah you too - keep up with that open minded approach and you’ll continue to really develop as a human being. Your approach and willingness to engage and debate has been an absolute joy to behold
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 seconds ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but we lost on penalties Darren so…
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 seconds ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but we lost on penalties Darren so…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least Darren is continuing to debate with a bit of maturity so maybe you want to bookmark his posts and learn something 😂
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn’t that depend on how you define success? So for the national team - isn’t ultimately success culminating in winning a tournament? And if we are not getting over the line, and for example have 1 shot on target against Italy in 120 minutes or being tactically outclassed by Spain who weren’t pre-tournament favroities - doesn’t that indicate that perhaps the root and branch might not have been completely siccessful?
It’s almost as if some England fans (and I’m not saying you are one of them) are thinking we deserved to win both finals and were so unlucky so next time we should definitely get over the line. I’m seeing a regression from Euro 2020 for example in this tournament not progression
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 28 minutes ago
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The level of arrogance in your opening paragraph is insane 😂
For reference - I also used the term quality in the same sentence as well as the phrase ‘big teams’ and I did so for this reason - Over the last 40 years Netherlands for example have produced some incredible teams and some very average ones.
The Netherlands team we met has to go down on paper as pretty average compared to where they were in 2008. You might say that’s subjective - but I don’t think they were that great. They were miles behind Spain
The point I’m making - which you already know - is that when we play a quality team (usually one of the big nations) like Spain, like France in 2022, we come up short under Southgate. Every. Single.Time
I actually called for a root and branch review after Iceland so I don’t think I’m being reactionary because I’ve been consistent in saying it.
The point i think you’re missing is this - time and again I’ve been hearing that it’s going to be different next time. In Brazil 2002 when we went out we were excited because of the golden generation and 2006 was going to be our World Cup. I’ve been hearing it for so long.
I think in 2 years time Robbing you’re going to very disappointed when you see that we have a new manager, same group of excellent players and nothing changes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 years time doesn't give a lot of time for a new manager. I do think though that we are more primed for success than we once were. The players are starting to filter through more often. Look at the recent success at the Under England levels.
As a general rule, the more top players you produce the more chance you're going to get, regardless of the quality of the manager.
It’s fair points Darren and I wouldn’t disagree that we have been on an upward trajectory since the last review which was over 10 years ago in a lot of ways. I guess the question is - what timeframe do you put on achieving the ultimate goal?
In the decade since we implemented some positive changes - I’ve just watched the men’s team play a brand of negative and tactically outdated football that seems at odds with what I’m watching in the PL and Europe.
I’ve also seen players struggle to handle the pressure and criticism and the same old pattern of talented players not performing when the moment really counts. We’ve seen it so many times and I’m concerned that actually ultimately - we may not be progressing as much as we like to think.
My question is I guess - do you basically risk wasting the next crop of talented players (Foden, Bellingham, Palmer etc) because there are other problems you haven’t addressed meaning it ends the same way with a different manager in 2026?
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
Dealing with pressure is another matter, and I really don’t think you can just sort that issue out. I’ve seen much, much better players than these England players crumble on the international stage, it is what it is.
We’ll see what the next few tournaments bring. I think we’ll eventually start to see England more comfortable in possession against the better sides because of the kind of midfielders we’re starting to produce, issue is they’re all pretty young.
Getting over the line and winning something is another matter. But we’ve been in a very good place to compete for tournaments, that’s very good as far as I’m concerned, even if we’ve been unable to get over the line. Football is a game of small margins that decide these things.
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England don't have the players to succeed playing that way as we've seen time and time again.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 17 seconds ago
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England don't have the players to succeed playing that way as we've seen time and time again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree and I’ve no idea why we’d want to copy France given how heavily their system relies on Mbappes pace on the counter. Surely we’ve got to be developing a way of playing that fits in with how these players are being coached ar their clubs - in a progressive way.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah this
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol.....you were superior to Italy how? For a couple of minutes around Luke Shaw's early goal when Italy were rattled after a nightmare start? I'm always amused at how many English fans make out like the Italy match was some upset, when in reality, Italy were many people's pre-tournament favorites because they were playing outstanding football and went on a record-breaking unbeaten 37-match run between 2018 and 2021 - after which they've since dropped off a cliff. They dominated that match because their midfield of Verratti, Jorginho and Barella was technically different class from England at the time and that extra quality on the ball eventually told as England started chasing shadows. England were lucky to take that match to extra time and a shootout. I rated England's chances against this Spain team far higher than I did at the time against that Italian team.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 25 minutes ago
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
Dealing with pressure is another matter, and I really don’t think you can just sort that issue out. I’ve seen much, much better players than these England players crumble on the international stage, it is what it is.
We’ll see what the next few tournaments bring. I think we’ll eventually start to see England more comfortable in possession against the better sides because of the kind of midfielders we’re starting to produce, issue is they’re all pretty young.
Getting over the line and winning something is another matter. But we’ve been in a very good place to compete for tournaments, that’s very good as far as I’m concerned, even if we’ve been unable to get over the line. Football is a game of small margins that decide these things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's why I've said England fans are a tad obsessed with how teams like Spain look instead of looking to their own qualities. France have never been technically outstanding through the team. The team that won the 2014 World Cup were getting dominated on the ball by Croatia, and relied heavily on the quality of Mbappe and Griezmann (Giroud didn't even score all tournament as their main striker ). Pogba was the closest thing they had to creativity in midfield.
Yep, people just think you can go out and play that way against anyone and if you can’t it’s because of the manager.
As you mentioned with Italy, their midfield was levels above ours.
98 problems, you said:
‘- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments’
Do you actually believe that?
comment by Edinspur (U1109)
posted 23 minutes ago
98 problems, you said:
‘- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments’
Do you actually believe that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Germany and Holland don’t count remember, and then you got to add a healthy lack of respect for teams like Switzerland and a huge dash of ‘We’re English so should be winning every tournament, because we’re English’.
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yep, people just think you can go out and play that way against anyone and if you can’t it’s because of the manager.
As you mentioned with Italy, their midfield was levels above ours.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were never going to play the way Spain did in that game but they were beatable and we did get at them at times. Better management of the situation may have got us through that. It was like a Man City vs Man United in the FA Cup situation.
Sign in if you want to comment
Southgate stepping down
Page 12 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13
posted on 17/7/24
and frankly...if that's Graham Potter i'll drop my trousers in the high Street...& if you saw our high Street.....
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 6 minutes ago
People love hyperbole don't they...just needs someone to unlock the potential by playing players in the right positions from the start & being more positive thinking about the game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. I feel Southgate has done a good job in many ways, maybe should have gone a tournament earlier, but there’s a great foundation there with some potentially excellent players coming through the ranks.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 11 hours, 35 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
Except what the FA have done by looking at what other countries did has been working. Ultimately the fine margins of football has meant we’ve fallen short of winning a trophy, but it’s clearly been a success when you look at England’s football history.
And you’re now moving the goal posts when it’s pointed out to you that the experience you think is needed isn’t actually all that important.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t think I’m moving the goalposts. What I’ve said is
- I don’t think we can simply expect success by copying the appointment process of other nations
- I disagree that the example you have provided of Southgate has been a success when the football has been atrocious and tactically years behind other nations. We got to two finals by avoiding the big nations and failed when we met them
- when you cite other nations appointing inexperienced managers as examples of how it can work I’ve disagreed by suggesting those nations don’t suffer with some of the unique problems we do
Ultimately what I’m advocating for is a root and branch review of English international football - not just looking at what Spain or anyone else does and thinking the same process will work for us
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So we’ve just had three back to back tournaments, where we’ve lost two finals, one on penalties and the other by the odd goal in the ‘86 minute (and we still had one cleared off the line after that), with what many think is our best squad in decades… and you want a root and branch of English football?
Okay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on your perspective, for eg I would say
- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments
- in the first final we had 1 shot on target in 120 minutes at home and blew probably the best chance we’ll have of winning the euros for a long time
- in the second final we were so far behind Spain tactically it was embarrassing and looked scared to have the ball
- We’ve been producing some amazing players regularly since 1966 and never won a thing so having the best squad doesn’t mean winning trophies (cue the golden generation
- Every tournament there seems to be a physical issue with the England players which most pundits agree is exacerbated by the number of games we play in this country compared to other nations
- The weight of expectation and criticism still appears to be affecting the players
So yeah - 58 years without a trophy sounds as good a time as any to dig a little deeper into why we aren’t getting over the line. Or we could just appoint Potter and hope for the best as usual
posted on 17/7/24
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 28 minutes ago
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The level of arrogance in your opening paragraph is insane 😂
For reference - I also used the term quality in the same sentence as well as the phrase ‘big teams’ and I did so for this reason - Over the last 40 years Netherlands for example have produced some incredible teams and some very average ones.
The Netherlands team we met has to go down on paper as pretty average compared to where they were in 2008. You might say that’s subjective - but I don’t think they were that great. They were miles behind Spain
The point I’m making - which you already know - is that when we play a quality team (usually one of the big nations) like Spain, like France in 2022, we come up short under Southgate. Every. Single.Time
I actually called for a root and branch review after Iceland so I don’t think I’m being reactionary because I’ve been consistent in saying it.
The point i think you’re missing is this - time and again I’ve been hearing that it’s going to be different next time. In Brazil 2002 when we went out we were excited because of the golden generation and 2006 was going to be our World Cup. I’ve been hearing it for so long.
I think in 2 years time Robbing you’re going to very disappointed when you see that we have a new manager, same group of excellent players and nothing changes
posted on 17/7/24
Again, read your first line and stopped reading.
Have a nice day.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 3 minutes ago
Again, read your first line and stopped reading.
Have a nice day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah you too - keep up with that open minded approach and you’ll continue to really develop as a human being. Your approach and willingness to engage and debate has been an absolute joy to behold
posted on 17/7/24
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 seconds ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but we lost on penalties Darren so…
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 12 seconds ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but we lost on penalties Darren so…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least Darren is continuing to debate with a bit of maturity so maybe you want to bookmark his posts and learn something 😂
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
We had a root and branch review over a decade ago. It led to English football being overhauled at grass roots level, all the way up to the premier league and England national team, and has seen England’s most successful era across all age groups in generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn’t that depend on how you define success? So for the national team - isn’t ultimately success culminating in winning a tournament? And if we are not getting over the line, and for example have 1 shot on target against Italy in 120 minutes or being tactically outclassed by Spain who weren’t pre-tournament favroities - doesn’t that indicate that perhaps the root and branch might not have been completely siccessful?
It’s almost as if some England fans (and I’m not saying you are one of them) are thinking we deserved to win both finals and were so unlucky so next time we should definitely get over the line. I’m seeing a regression from Euro 2020 for example in this tournament not progression
posted on 17/7/24
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by 98 Problems (and promotion ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - I want to play by my own rules and if I can’t I’ll sue you (U6374)
posted 28 minutes ago
You keep writing we avoided every big team… like Germany and Holland??? So I stopped reading after that.
I think you’ll be in a group of one where thinking a root and branch review of English football is required though and tbh it seems absurd and reactionary to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The level of arrogance in your opening paragraph is insane 😂
For reference - I also used the term quality in the same sentence as well as the phrase ‘big teams’ and I did so for this reason - Over the last 40 years Netherlands for example have produced some incredible teams and some very average ones.
The Netherlands team we met has to go down on paper as pretty average compared to where they were in 2008. You might say that’s subjective - but I don’t think they were that great. They were miles behind Spain
The point I’m making - which you already know - is that when we play a quality team (usually one of the big nations) like Spain, like France in 2022, we come up short under Southgate. Every. Single.Time
I actually called for a root and branch review after Iceland so I don’t think I’m being reactionary because I’ve been consistent in saying it.
The point i think you’re missing is this - time and again I’ve been hearing that it’s going to be different next time. In Brazil 2002 when we went out we were excited because of the golden generation and 2006 was going to be our World Cup. I’ve been hearing it for so long.
I think in 2 years time Robbing you’re going to very disappointed when you see that we have a new manager, same group of excellent players and nothing changes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 years time doesn't give a lot of time for a new manager. I do think though that we are more primed for success than we once were. The players are starting to filter through more often. Look at the recent success at the Under England levels.
As a general rule, the more top players you produce the more chance you're going to get, regardless of the quality of the manager.
posted on 17/7/24
It’s fair points Darren and I wouldn’t disagree that we have been on an upward trajectory since the last review which was over 10 years ago in a lot of ways. I guess the question is - what timeframe do you put on achieving the ultimate goal?
In the decade since we implemented some positive changes - I’ve just watched the men’s team play a brand of negative and tactically outdated football that seems at odds with what I’m watching in the PL and Europe.
I’ve also seen players struggle to handle the pressure and criticism and the same old pattern of talented players not performing when the moment really counts. We’ve seen it so many times and I’m concerned that actually ultimately - we may not be progressing as much as we like to think.
My question is I guess - do you basically risk wasting the next crop of talented players (Foden, Bellingham, Palmer etc) because there are other problems you haven’t addressed meaning it ends the same way with a different manager in 2026?
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
posted on 17/7/24
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
Dealing with pressure is another matter, and I really don’t think you can just sort that issue out. I’ve seen much, much better players than these England players crumble on the international stage, it is what it is.
We’ll see what the next few tournaments bring. I think we’ll eventually start to see England more comfortable in possession against the better sides because of the kind of midfielders we’re starting to produce, issue is they’re all pretty young.
Getting over the line and winning something is another matter. But we’ve been in a very good place to compete for tournaments, that’s very good as far as I’m concerned, even if we’ve been unable to get over the line. Football is a game of small margins that decide these things.
posted on 17/7/24
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England don't have the players to succeed playing that way as we've seen time and time again.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 17 seconds ago
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England don't have the players to succeed playing that way as we've seen time and time again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree and I’ve no idea why we’d want to copy France given how heavily their system relies on Mbappes pace on the counter. Surely we’ve got to be developing a way of playing that fits in with how these players are being coached ar their clubs - in a progressive way.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah this
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
Well yes if winning the tournament is the only way you gauge complete success then that’s fine. But I think that’s quite unrealistic, and it’s actually the next generation coming through in terms of players and coaching that are expected to benefit the most from the root and branch changes made by the FA - as they’ve been schooled in a different manner to what came before them, and have been there right from the start of it in some cases.
England have been a good trajectory across all the board for many years. Clearly it’s not perfect, and there’s areas that need to be looked at so we can refine things a little, but that doesn’t mean root and branch.
I also think the issue regarding English managers is hard to address because firstly it’s not that easy, Brazil and France aren’t exactly know for producing top managers, and how you go about addressing that isn’t clear, plus the premier league and championship’s decision making on managers and coaches is out of the FA’s hands - so giving opportunities to domestic coaches is going to take some time a a cultural change at the clubs in how they view these coaches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think what most people are disappointed about is not that we lost these finals and a SF, but the manner that we lost them, and a lot of that had very little to do with the quality of player we had.
In all 3 of these big games we have under performed, been overly defensive, lost or lacked any control of the game and were tactically out manoeuvred either from teh get go or as the opposition made changes.
I didnt expect England to win it, not from before a ball was kicked or as we kicked off in the final, but I did want us to give it a bloody good go and i do not think we did. Yes Spain were a superior team but we were defensive, timid and passive. Vs Italy we were the superior team and had played some good football in the tournament but were then so defensive after taking the lead and handed Italy all the momentum and failed to react .
I think most fans can accept the result in a one off game but probably feel real regret that England didnt really go for it and in the Italy game in particular passed up a massive opportunity to win a trophy for the first time in half a century
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol.....you were superior to Italy how? For a couple of minutes around Luke Shaw's early goal when Italy were rattled after a nightmare start? I'm always amused at how many English fans make out like the Italy match was some upset, when in reality, Italy were many people's pre-tournament favorites because they were playing outstanding football and went on a record-breaking unbeaten 37-match run between 2018 and 2021 - after which they've since dropped off a cliff. They dominated that match because their midfield of Verratti, Jorginho and Barella was technically different class from England at the time and that extra quality on the ball eventually told as England started chasing shadows. England were lucky to take that match to extra time and a shootout. I rated England's chances against this Spain team far higher than I did at the time against that Italian team.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 25 minutes ago
Well I don’t agree it’s tactically outdated, especially when you watch France winning the world cup playing defensively as well.
Dealing with pressure is another matter, and I really don’t think you can just sort that issue out. I’ve seen much, much better players than these England players crumble on the international stage, it is what it is.
We’ll see what the next few tournaments bring. I think we’ll eventually start to see England more comfortable in possession against the better sides because of the kind of midfielders we’re starting to produce, issue is they’re all pretty young.
Getting over the line and winning something is another matter. But we’ve been in a very good place to compete for tournaments, that’s very good as far as I’m concerned, even if we’ve been unable to get over the line. Football is a game of small margins that decide these things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's why I've said England fans are a tad obsessed with how teams like Spain look instead of looking to their own qualities. France have never been technically outstanding through the team. The team that won the 2014 World Cup were getting dominated on the ball by Croatia, and relied heavily on the quality of Mbappe and Griezmann (Giroud didn't even score all tournament as their main striker ). Pogba was the closest thing they had to creativity in midfield.
posted on 17/7/24
Yep, people just think you can go out and play that way against anyone and if you can’t it’s because of the manager.
As you mentioned with Italy, their midfield was levels above ours.
posted on 17/7/24
98 problems, you said:
‘- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments’
Do you actually believe that?
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Edinspur (U1109)
posted 23 minutes ago
98 problems, you said:
‘- We reached two finals by avoiding every big team on both occasions. When we did play quality teams in 2018 and 2022 we got knocked out, same as 96, 98, 90 and a lot of other tournaments’
Do you actually believe that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Germany and Holland don’t count remember, and then you got to add a healthy lack of respect for teams like Switzerland and a huge dash of ‘We’re English so should be winning every tournament, because we’re English’.
posted on 17/7/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 18 minutes ago
Yep, people just think you can go out and play that way against anyone and if you can’t it’s because of the manager.
As you mentioned with Italy, their midfield was levels above ours.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were never going to play the way Spain did in that game but they were beatable and we did get at them at times. Better management of the situation may have got us through that. It was like a Man City vs Man United in the FA Cup situation.
Page 12 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13