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A difference between England and Australia

Page 5 of 7

posted on 18/10/24

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 14 minutes ago

👍

It is a very strange paradox. In some ways what is done to recognise the crimes of the past by modern day Australians is something you just wouldn’t see en masse in the UK. (Imagine a referendum to give back the Koh-i-Noor diamond to India and recognise the crimes against the Indians by the British empire in modern day England supported by Labour).

There is a huge attempt to look back on the crimes done and find ways to heal by many people in Australia. But giving back land and apologies can only go so far with deep routed problems in Indigenous communities are almost un fixable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a major difference Robb.

Britain no longer occupies the scene of the vast majority of its crimes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s become very rich because of those crimes though, and countries that it absorbed many of the riches could be doing better if debts were forgiven or certain treasures handed back.

The troubles Indigenous people here face go back many many generations and the introduction of alcohol by the British was like introducing smallpox to native Americans.

posted on 18/10/24

comment by Two Balls, One Saka (U19684)
posted 53 minutes ago
The reality of Australia's current aboriginal issues (for lack of a better word) is still very, very much fecked up, don't think you can remotely understand this until you live here for a while.

On the one hand you have the attempt to promote/celebrate the culture, the show that gets put on for the outside world.

There's stuff on TV or before events, like thanking and paying respect to the elders of whatever land you're using for commercial gain (always feels to me like cynical nonsense) but largely harmless.
There's live performances or indigenous music and dancing.
Story telling.
All nice stuff really if not token at times.

But the reality for I guess the vast majority of Aboriginals here is crime and addiction, a life separate to the non indigenous Australian's but certainly not in some positive way that celebrates an ancient culture.

The vast majority of interactions with Aboriginal people that I or people I know have had during travels from one side of Australia to another is negative. Just imagine either individuals or groups of aggressive drunk or drugged people either fighting with themselves, trying to fight you or just so out of it they can't tell which way is up.

It's a horrible shame and without doubt due to the genocide, abuse and suppression of previous generations by "invaders" (an entirely fair name given the reality).

You can completely understand why these problems exist and have upmost sympathy, but you'd also do everything in your power to avoid these troubled people during your day to day life.

The solution is not simple at all, you're talking about trying to break cycles of substance and physical abuse that go back several generations now. I know people who've worked in "aboriginal towns", places where drink is banned and people get tokens for food, of course drink and drugs still get in, there's violence, inshest (spelling) and imo almost no hope for anyone born into that world.

In major Cities you have these problems too, rates of mental illness, addiction and life expectancy are horrendous for aboriginal people in those too. There's people who thankfully buck this trend but I believe they're very much a small minority at this moment in time and it's going to be a long and painful road to recovery, if there's a recovery at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's only in the remote, sparsely populated Northern half of Australia that pure blood Australian Aborigines live in any great numbers

Many of the people claiming to be aboriginal are 1/4 or even less at best

There are major problems with full blooded Aboriginals integrating into Western society & cities though...culturally & intellectually

These people have evolved separate from most of the rest of humanity for >50,000 years & they still, like our ancestors are incredible hunter gatherers with the best eyesight & spatial memory of any contemporary humans
However to navigate the Western world requires other mental tasks that our ancestors evolved and became selected for during the Neolithic and beyond

I believe from what I've read the average full blooded Australian Aborigine has an IQ of around 60-70
IQ is ofcourse a measure of "intelligence" in the Western sense.
These people in terms of certain mental abilities, in the West, would be regarded as special needs.
This makes Western societies very difficult for them unfortunately.

The European colonisation of Australia was a disaster for them

Their brain wiring has evolved to be excellent hunter gatherers... in which they would far excel any of us

posted on 18/10/24

There's no doubting where a lot of Britain's wealth originates, and the enduring dire consequences of empire and colonialism, you won't catch me saying the opposite.

But there's still a false equivalence between the two cases.

The colonists continue to exploit Australia to a far, far greater degree than Britain does its former colonies. (Which is not to say that the former colonial powers don't continue to benefit from their conquests, of course they do.)

It's almost ironic that one of the major reasons that the vast majority of colonists (whether in the Americas, Southern Africa, Oceania or elsewhere) broke away from their mother countries because they themselves felt they were being exploited.

posted on 18/10/24

comment by Peks - El Cid Campeador (U6618)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Two Balls, One Saka (U19684)
posted 53 minutes ago
The reality of Australia's current aboriginal issues (for lack of a better word) is still very, very much fecked up, don't think you can remotely understand this until you live here for a while.

On the one hand you have the attempt to promote/celebrate the culture, the show that gets put on for the outside world.

There's stuff on TV or before events, like thanking and paying respect to the elders of whatever land you're using for commercial gain (always feels to me like cynical nonsense) but largely harmless.
There's live performances or indigenous music and dancing.
Story telling.
All nice stuff really if not token at times.

But the reality for I guess the vast majority of Aboriginals here is crime and addiction, a life separate to the non indigenous Australian's but certainly not in some positive way that celebrates an ancient culture.

The vast majority of interactions with Aboriginal people that I or people I know have had during travels from one side of Australia to another is negative. Just imagine either individuals or groups of aggressive drunk or drugged people either fighting with themselves, trying to fight you or just so out of it they can't tell which way is up.

It's a horrible shame and without doubt due to the genocide, abuse and suppression of previous generations by "invaders" (an entirely fair name given the reality).

You can completely understand why these problems exist and have upmost sympathy, but you'd also do everything in your power to avoid these troubled people during your day to day life.

The solution is not simple at all, you're talking about trying to break cycles of substance and physical abuse that go back several generations now. I know people who've worked in "aboriginal towns", places where drink is banned and people get tokens for food, of course drink and drugs still get in, there's violence, inshest (spelling) and imo almost no hope for anyone born into that world.

In major Cities you have these problems too, rates of mental illness, addiction and life expectancy are horrendous for aboriginal people in those too. There's people who thankfully buck this trend but I believe they're very much a small minority at this moment in time and it's going to be a long and painful road to recovery, if there's a recovery at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's only in the remote, sparsely populated Northern half of Australia that pure blood Australian Aborigines live in any great numbers

Many of the people claiming to be aboriginal are 1/4 or even less at best

There are major problems with full blooded Aboriginals integrating into Western society & cities though...culturally & intellectually

These people have evolved separate from most of the rest of humanity for >50,000 years & they still, like our ancestors are incredible hunter gatherers with the best eyesight & spatial memory of any contemporary humans
However to navigate the Western world requires other mental tasks that our ancestors evolved and became selected for during the Neolithic and beyond

I believe from what I've read the average full blooded Australian Aborigine has an IQ of around 60-70
IQ is ofcourse a measure of "intelligence" in the Western sense.
These people in terms of certain mental abilities, in the West, would be regarded as special needs.
This makes Western societies very difficult for them unfortunately.

The European colonisation of Australia was a disaster for them

Their brain wiring has evolved to be excellent hunter gatherers... in which they would far excel any of us
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell me you're a Naaazi without saying you're a Naaazi. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/17/tech-money-race-science-nonsensical

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/16/revealed-international-race-science-network-secretly-funded-by-us-tech-boss

posted on 18/10/24

I'm no Naaazi.

i care for these people & want them to live well
i feel bad for them what happened after Europeans discovered Australia

posted on 18/10/24

I thought everyone knew by now that IQ tests are hugely reflective of education, and therefore extremely unreliable as an indicator of innate intelligence. Today they are mainly the preserve of people trying to bring back 19th century racial hierarchy pseudoscience and tech bros. (Big overlap in that particular Venn diagram!)

posted on 18/10/24

All the people featured in those articles deny it too.

posted on 18/10/24

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 minutes ago
All the people featured in those articles deny it too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on 18/10/24

Dunno if you've read the articles, Daz, but they actually do.

It's amazing that they seem to think that saying "I'm not a Naaazi" undoes all the philo-Naaazi rhetoric and pseudoscience they spout.

Like peks up there feigning concern or sympathy for the aboriginal populations of Australia.

"i care for these people & want them to live well
i feel bad for them what happened after Europeans discovered Australia"

...but when it comes to the Spanish atrocities in the Americas, goes about posting images of the Spanish imperial flag embraced by the far right over here and goes on about all the good the Europeans did around the world.

"was nothing racist at all
was pointing out Columbus & the Discovery of the New World was not all bad news for alot of Native Americans"

...was him doubling down after Admin removed whatever he'd said before that.

peks, do us all a favour and save us your Naaazi crocodile tears.

posted on 18/10/24

'kin hell, calm down lad

posted on 18/10/24

I actually do like the Australian Aborigines
Incredible that right up to the 20C these people were still in the Palaeolithic

posted on 18/10/24

was nothing racist at all
was pointing out Columbus & the Discovery of the New World was not all bad news for alot of Native Americans"

The reason why so many native tribes sided with the Spanish against the Aztecs, was because of the extreme cruelty of these people...human sacrifice was v common
That's not opinion it's historical fact

posted on 18/10/24

We get it. Anglo-Saxon genocide bad. Spanish genocide good.

comment by Hector (U3606)

posted on 18/10/24

Engaging with Peks is a sign of a low IQ.

posted on 18/10/24

Ouch.

posted on 18/10/24

Dunno if you've read the articles, Daz, but they actually do.
———
I didn’t, I was laughing at the way you implied he was a Naaaazi. But yeah it doesn’t surprise me what you’re saying.

I’ll check to article out in a bit.

posted on 18/10/24

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
We get it. Anglo-Saxon genocide bad. Spanish genocide good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
most of the natives in the Americans snuffed it because they had no immunity to Old world diseases.

honestly, a bit of lemsip & a pack of lockets woulda saved most of them

posted on 18/10/24

comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 7 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by rosso says the time has come to unlock the unlimited Pote-ntial of the Fernçalvenoo triumvirate (U17054)
posted 6 hours, 44 minutes ago
Bump!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpqz8gyp500o
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s a difficult dilemma as the levels of crime from indigenous children is absolutely OTT in the NT.

Getting them off the streets is a priority not just for their sakes but for the sakes of the innocent people caught up in the crime wave that is happening in places like Alice Springs.

Rather than being put in an adult jail or whatever this proposes I’d have them put somewhere where they can be treated for substance abuse where it’s still a custodial sentence but a place built specifically to get them educated and ready to reenter society.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Could try residential schools. See Canada for an example.

posted on 18/10/24

comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 7 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 7 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by rosso says the time has come to unlock the unlimited Pote-ntial of the Fernçalvenoo triumvirate (U17054)
posted 6 hours, 44 minutes ago
Bump!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpqz8gyp500o
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s a difficult dilemma as the levels of crime from indigenous children is absolutely OTT in the NT.

Getting them off the streets is a priority not just for their sakes but for the sakes of the innocent people caught up in the crime wave that is happening in places like Alice Springs.

Rather than being put in an adult jail or whatever this proposes I’d have them put somewhere where they can be treated for substance abuse where it’s still a custodial sentence but a place built specifically to get them educated and ready to reenter society.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Could try residential schools. See Canada for an example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They had them in operation in Oz too, up until the second half of last century. Girls especially were forcibly removed from their families and brought up to be good 'maids'. When peks talks about the low proportion of "pure" Aboriginal peoples (i.e. not of mixed blood), what he probably doesn't realise is just how much of that was forced raaape and an intentional effort to "whiten out" the population (there was a specific term for it in Oz that I can't recall right now).

posted on 19/10/24

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 7 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by Robb Raygun (U22716)
posted 7 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by rosso says the time has come to unlock the unlimited Pote-ntial of the Fernçalvenoo triumvirate (U17054)
posted 6 hours, 44 minutes ago
Bump!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpqz8gyp500o
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s a difficult dilemma as the levels of crime from indigenous children is absolutely OTT in the NT.

Getting them off the streets is a priority not just for their sakes but for the sakes of the innocent people caught up in the crime wave that is happening in places like Alice Springs.

Rather than being put in an adult jail or whatever this proposes I’d have them put somewhere where they can be treated for substance abuse where it’s still a custodial sentence but a place built specifically to get them educated and ready to reenter society.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Could try residential schools. See Canada for an example.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They had them in operation in Oz too, up until the second half of last century. Girls especially were forcibly removed from their families and brought up to be good 'maids'. When peks talks about the low proportion of "pure" Aboriginal peoples (i.e. not of mixed blood), what he probably doesn't realise is just how much of that was forced raaape and an intentional effort to "whiten out" the population (there was a specific term for it in Oz that I can't recall right now).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're possibly referring to "The Stolen Generations"

posted on 19/10/24

I was aware of that actually
I have watched the brilliant Oz film, Rabbit Proof Fence a number of times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM49rUQjkd4

posted on 19/10/24

comment by Peks - El Cid Campeador (U6618)
posted 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
I was aware of that actually
I have watched the brilliant Oz film, Rabbit Proof Fence a number of times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM49rUQjkd4
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you think that makes your opening claims any better?

You seemed to wave away the legitimacy of claims to Aboriginal ancestry, despite knowing that their not being 'pure blooded' would owe to the forced raape of their ancestors.

You then argued that 'pure-blooded' indigenous Australians are (quote) 'special needs' by Western standards.

What seems to follow in your train of logic is that by mass raaping their women, white settlers were actually doing them a favour by providing them with the right genes to survive in 'Western' society.

On a related note, contrasting 'hunter-gatherers' and 'Western societies' also has a strong whiff to it. Why would someone so clued-up on human anthropology choose such a clumsy opposition of terms?

posted on 19/10/24

comment by Two Balls, One Saka (U19684)
posted 9 hours, 47 minutes ago

You're possibly referring to "The Stolen Generations"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's in that context, yes, but as I recall, there were specific quotes from Australian politicians in Lindqvist's "Terra Nullius" more specifically advocating the dilution of indigenous Australian populations by the 'siring' of their women, and there was a concrete and very offensive expression for the suggested policy, along the lines of "washing out the Black" or something along those lines.

posted on 19/10/24

comment by Peks - El Cid Campeador (U6618)
posted 22 hours, 9 minutes ago
was nothing racist at all
was pointing out Columbus & the Discovery of the New World was not all bad news for alot of Native Americans"

The reason why so many native tribes sided with the Spanish against the Aztecs, was because of the extreme cruelty of these people...human sacrifice was v common
That's not opinion it's historical fact
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It isn't historical fact on numerous grounds, but it doesn't really matter because you'll continue distorting the historical record to suit your racist views.

Since that there were collaborationists, you'd probably defend the idea that the Naazis were not bad news for all Jews.

posted on 19/10/24

comment by ai'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Peks - El Cid Campeador (U6618)
posted 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
I was aware of that actually
I have watched the brilliant Oz film, Rabbit Proof Fence a number of times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM49rUQjkd4
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you think that makes your opening claims any better?

You seemed to wave away the legitimacy of claims to Aboriginal ancestry, despite knowing that their not being 'pure blooded' would owe to the forced raape of their ancestors.

You then argued that 'pure-blooded' indigenous Australians are (quote) 'special needs' by Western standards.

What seems to follow in your train of logic is that by mass raaping their women, white settlers were actually doing them a favour by providing them with the right genes to survive in 'Western' society.

On a related note, contrasting 'hunter-gatherers' and 'Western societies' also has a strong whiff to it. Why would someone so clued-up on human anthropology choose such a clumsy opposition of terms?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's nonsense

You're interpreting what I said for you own agenda
You also make some strange claims, such as:
"You seemed to wave away the legitimacy of claims to Aboriginal ancestry, despite knowing that their not being 'pure blooded' would owe to the forced raape of their ancestors."

Undoubtedly some of these Aboriginal woman became pregnant with the kids of white men by rape.
However, the majority wouldn't have been by rape
Women are attracted by men from incoming dominant cultures., that's a biological fact.
Female hypergamy is hardwired
Most of these aboriginal women would have voluntarily got into sexual relationships with white men

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