I don't think the players are toxic. I think it's a lazy excuse that the media continue to throw out. For starters ETH signed 14 players whilst our manager so half this squad were his own players. He also made Bruno his captain, brought through Mainoo and Rashford was his star man for a good while.
We just have a lot of poor players. When you get recruitment this wrong for over a decade this is the end result. It's simple math. If you buy a load of players that were never good enough to start with or just flop badly then you become a crap team.
SE85,
Regardless of spending or player attributes, a strong work rate should be the minimum expectation for every player. If those capable of running choose not to, it indicates something fundamentally wrong within the squad. Ranking lowest in sprints across the league is inexcusable and speaks volumes about the deeper issues at the club, it boils down to culture, little else.
We always hear of this toxic culture, but who or what is causing it? Do we currently really have a terrible group of players who just don't want to try?
I don't know if it is something that has been talked about so much that it's just become a standard go to reason as to what is wrong with the club, or if there really is something in it.
Or is it also simply the case that we've never had the right coach in place along with the right players at that time to do what we really needed.
I see a group of players who don't seem to have clear instruction on what is expected of them - it needs strong leadership from the coaching staff to drill this into them and I don't think that has ever been there.
I think we have a coach now who hopefully has those man management skills and clear vision which he can communicate to the players.
Your stats will all be low, because they all point to the same thing, we don't score enough goals.
And no doubt if Amorim shows good progress early on, a new contract will be offered etc.
All the players need and want is a coach they can buy into. Hopefully this is the one.
Oh and we need to buy actual quality as well as potential. I can’t remember the last time we bought a bonafide top player that got us all excited.
One thing we all hoped we'd get from ETH and now hope the same from Ruben (and the club in general) is that we will have an identity, a way of playing that will make it much harder to buy the wrong player... If they fit the system, they should be ok (obviously injury and form will still play a part).
I think the majority of our current crop have good enough attitudes, but there are a lot of players who's head's drop when the going gets tough, including the senior players (Rashers, Maguire... Bruno, who loses his head).
There's nobody I'm aware of who is a bad apple. Rashford and Bruno are the people who people like to blame it on but apparently both are hugely popular figures in the dressing room. Neither of them are bad lads from what I can tell and what I have read.
It's a combination of poor recruitment, bad results and bad coaching that saps the confidence out of everything. That's the problem.
Rashford literally carried us back into the CL almost single handedly too in Erik's first season let's not forget. Without him we'd have finished where we did in year 2 and where are now roughly.
I think to put it all down to toxicity is such a cop out. It's way deeper than that as I have pointed out. We have been a terribly ran club for over a decade. Fans need to wake up and realise it. We just aren't a top club anymore. The name still is and that's literally it.
For me, it's mostly about coaching, and let's be honest, after all this time, we have never had the right coach in, but hopefully we do now.
Even if we don't have great players, the right coach will get the best out of them, build confidence and results will turn etc. We can see teams around us with players who may be individually inferior, but as a squad of players are getting a lot more out of themselves, and there's where we need to be at, so then we can see where we need to improve player-wise.
But that will never happen until we get the right coach in. So come on Amorim, show us what you are made of
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
comment by Robben Amorim (U22716)
posted 14 minutes ago
Oh and we need to buy actual quality as well as potential. I can’t remember the last time we bought a bonafide top player that got us all excited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the budget for the bona fide top player, and who do you get?
wow those stats are mental
I didn't realise how bad they were
I don't think we can say the culture is self-evidently toxic. I think there are several players who don't have the athletic profile to put in as many high-intensity sprints as players at the most successful clubs do, which is a legacy of failing to address this in recruitment policy over years. I also think flawed coaching and (probably just as important) lack of consistency in tactics and coaching, combined with too many players whose formative years lacked in modern footballing education leads to a situation in which players want to follow the coach's instructions but in the split second you have to make a decision to press / make a run / release a pass they tend to hesitate and miss the opportunity. I think we're going to need some more squad churn for Amorim to shape a really fine team, and I believe that if we really want to get back to having a seat at the elite table, we have to be willing to sacrifice short-term performance in favour of the slow process of sticking to new footballing principles.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 13 minutes ago
There's nobody I'm aware of who is a bad apple. Rashford and Bruno are the people who people like to blame it on but apparently both are hugely popular figures in the dressing room. Neither of them are bad lads from what I can tell and what I have read.
It's a combination of poor recruitment, bad results and bad coaching that saps the confidence out of everything. That's the problem.
Rashford literally carried us back into the CL almost single handedly too in Erik's first season let's not forget. Without him we'd have finished where we did in year 2 and where are now roughly.
I think to put it all down to toxicity is such a cop out. It's way deeper than that as I have pointed out. We have been a terribly ran club for over a decade. Fans need to wake up and realise it. We just aren't a top club anymore. The name still is and that's literally it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends how you view toxicity. Personally I don't see popularity has anything to do with it. I doubt Keane was the most likeable or sociable bloke in the dressing room by any stretch. For me, toxicity is the state of the mentality in the players. The lack of desire, the lack of discipline, or even to improve themselves. When you have enough players with that mentality you develop a culture, and that's the toxicity.
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
comment by Playmaker
posted 4 minutes ago
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problems start from the top, and I appreciate you mentioning Woodward. Since David Gill’s departure, the club shifted its priorities, focusing on high profile names, often players past their best, mercenaries even, rather than building a cohesive, hardworking team. This approach set the wrong tone, but with the recent changes in sporting leadership, there’s finally a focus on re-establishing form on the pitch.
To me, work rate should be the bare minimum. It requires high fitness, and given our injury record, it’s possible some players are reluctant to sprint regularly. However, to deliver EtH's high press or Amorim’s intense, front foot style, players need to consistently expend far more energy than we’re currently seeing. These stats, putting us in relegation form, are an embarrassing reflection of that. Without effort, talent alone means nothing.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said.
There was a plan obviously but nobody seemed to get what it was he was telling them to do clearly.
I actually don't dislike this group of players. They seem like decent lads but they just aren't very good. That's ultimately the issue.
People ranting and raving about Amad and Garnacho and they'd be struggling to get on the bench in the great Fergie teams. This is just where we are now as a club. We did what Liverpool did in the 90's. We replaced elite winners with players not at that level and this is what happens.
I am sick of the in fighting and excuses. It's time the whole fanbase just realised we just aren't that good.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a valid point that a lack of understanding of EtH's vision or tactics might impact performance to some degree, but what about work rate itself? Effective pressing is about effort from all, not individual half hearted attempts to press, for example. Is this lack of co-ordinated pressing down to unclear messaging from the manager, or are there deeper issues affecting the players' effort and commitment to high press football? I am not denying poor coaching has not played a part, it simply has otherwise EtH would be our manager.
Toxic is the wrong word. Underacheiving, sub standard and inadequate are more like it. You need a winning culture to win the trophies that the club is talking about. United are a million miles from that. And that can only come from within. INEOS have started well with their appointments in finally creating a serious sporting club structure for football people to thrive from. They now need to continue that with their appointments on the coaching side now that they have grown a pair and got rid of Ten Hag, plus they seriously need to sit down with the new guy and rethink their player recruitment policy. And do all this whilst acheiving results that are acceptable to the paying supporters. Piece of pizz.
And yes it will take a while and cost them a load of money.
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Playmaker
posted 4 minutes ago
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problems start from the top, and I appreciate you mentioning Woodward. Since David Gill’s departure, the club shifted its priorities, focusing on high profile names, often players past their best, mercenaries even, rather than building a cohesive, hardworking team. This approach set the wrong tone, but with the recent changes in sporting leadership, there’s finally a focus on re-establishing form on the pitch.
To me, work rate should be the bare minimum. It requires high fitness, and given our injury record, it’s possible some players are reluctant to sprint regularly. However, to deliver EtH's high press or Amorim’s intense, front foot style, players need to consistently expend far more energy than we’re currently seeing. These stats, putting us in relegation form, are an embarrassing reflection of that. Without effort, talent alone means nothing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree completely. The missing factor also is the personality and man management skills of the manager. I think Ole's weakness meant players just thought it was ok not to put a shift in. On the flip side, ETH's persona didn't endear him enough to the players to even try. Coming in a being the sargeant major clearly didn't work, along with his poor communication skills. None of this excuses the players btw, but I do feel that Amorim has that persona and coaching ability to get players believing in him and busting a gut for him.
My opinion over the past 10 years is that the culture was instilled by lazy fckers who were brought in, mercenaries as you mentioned. They poisoned the dressing room. Then as new players arrived, rather than turning the culture the other way, no matter how talented or committed they were to begin with, they too got infected by the same attitude. It's like at one point or another they all succombed to it. Now with Woodward gone, Omar, Ashworth, Amorim in, slowly but surely we can isolate the negs orr turn them and get back on the right path.
. I think we're going to need some more squad churn for Amorim to shape a really fine team, and I believe that if we really want to get back to having a seat at the elite table, we have to be willing to sacrifice short-term performance in favour of the slow process of sticking to new footballing principles.
---
RR, I agree. Building a high quality team under Amorim will likely demand substantial squad changes. However, given his relatively short contract, will he actually be given the time he needs? It's doubtful, especially if he doesn't start delivering results quickly. This season's priority is simply to avoid the embarrassment of being pulled into a relegation battle, if he manages that, it’s a small victory. Next summer will be telling, as the sporting leadership must further shape the squad to support Amorim’s long term vision.
comment by RB&W - He kicked lumps out of them (U21434)
posted 10 minutes ago
Toxic is the wrong word. Underacheiving, sub standard and inadequate are more like it. You need a winning culture to win the trophies that the club is talking about. United are a million miles from that. And that can only come from within. INEOS have started well with their appointments in finally creating a serious sporting club structure for football people to thrive from. They now need to continue that with their appointments on the coaching side now that they have grown a pair and got rid of Ten Hag, plus they seriously need to sit down with the new guy and rethink their player recruitment policy. And do all this whilst acheiving results that are acceptable to the paying supporters. Piece of pizz.
And yes it will take a while and cost them a load of money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍
Our players just aren’t very good. It’s why so few of them start for their national team.
Basically United need to win a few games right now.
I think once the team is struggling, which it has obv been for a while, it's difficult to turn it around, especially when there is a lack of true quality players in the team. And then that makes it more difficult for new squad members to make a great impression because the morale of the squad isn't great. Add to that a coach who isn't quite up to what we need, and well we are going to fall below any expectation.
But it's been a while since we have had a truly top class player, at the peak of his game.
Altho Fergie's teams were of course great, he also had quite a few what you would call decent but nothing special players in the squad (and let's be honest, some ropey ones also) but they integrated well, because we also had top quality players, a winning confident squad, and of course the best manager of the lot.
I think Amorim can be a top manager for us, get the best out of what we have, hopefully have a few youngsters who turn out to be really good, and over time we can bring in some decent quality players also.
Really not sure what to expect the rest of the season, but I think it may be better than a lot of people's expectations, or maybe they don't want to be too optimistic
correct, very toxic - but its the fans at the ground creating this culture.
my pal a United fan went to the Chelsea game yesterday, the abuse shouted at your own players from the tunnel awful.
I get it, being a Leeds fan myself (lets try and keep this sensible lads please) - its difficult to let accept that your time has past. not the current players fault? - all era's pass eventually.
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Toxic culture?
Page 1 of 4
posted on 4/11/24
I don't think the players are toxic. I think it's a lazy excuse that the media continue to throw out. For starters ETH signed 14 players whilst our manager so half this squad were his own players. He also made Bruno his captain, brought through Mainoo and Rashford was his star man for a good while.
We just have a lot of poor players. When you get recruitment this wrong for over a decade this is the end result. It's simple math. If you buy a load of players that were never good enough to start with or just flop badly then you become a crap team.
posted on 4/11/24
SE85,
Regardless of spending or player attributes, a strong work rate should be the minimum expectation for every player. If those capable of running choose not to, it indicates something fundamentally wrong within the squad. Ranking lowest in sprints across the league is inexcusable and speaks volumes about the deeper issues at the club, it boils down to culture, little else.
posted on 4/11/24
We always hear of this toxic culture, but who or what is causing it? Do we currently really have a terrible group of players who just don't want to try?
I don't know if it is something that has been talked about so much that it's just become a standard go to reason as to what is wrong with the club, or if there really is something in it.
Or is it also simply the case that we've never had the right coach in place along with the right players at that time to do what we really needed.
I see a group of players who don't seem to have clear instruction on what is expected of them - it needs strong leadership from the coaching staff to drill this into them and I don't think that has ever been there.
I think we have a coach now who hopefully has those man management skills and clear vision which he can communicate to the players.
Your stats will all be low, because they all point to the same thing, we don't score enough goals.
And no doubt if Amorim shows good progress early on, a new contract will be offered etc.
posted on 4/11/24
All the players need and want is a coach they can buy into. Hopefully this is the one.
posted on 4/11/24
Oh and we need to buy actual quality as well as potential. I can’t remember the last time we bought a bonafide top player that got us all excited.
posted on 4/11/24
One thing we all hoped we'd get from ETH and now hope the same from Ruben (and the club in general) is that we will have an identity, a way of playing that will make it much harder to buy the wrong player... If they fit the system, they should be ok (obviously injury and form will still play a part).
I think the majority of our current crop have good enough attitudes, but there are a lot of players who's head's drop when the going gets tough, including the senior players (Rashers, Maguire... Bruno, who loses his head).
posted on 4/11/24
There's nobody I'm aware of who is a bad apple. Rashford and Bruno are the people who people like to blame it on but apparently both are hugely popular figures in the dressing room. Neither of them are bad lads from what I can tell and what I have read.
It's a combination of poor recruitment, bad results and bad coaching that saps the confidence out of everything. That's the problem.
Rashford literally carried us back into the CL almost single handedly too in Erik's first season let's not forget. Without him we'd have finished where we did in year 2 and where are now roughly.
I think to put it all down to toxicity is such a cop out. It's way deeper than that as I have pointed out. We have been a terribly ran club for over a decade. Fans need to wake up and realise it. We just aren't a top club anymore. The name still is and that's literally it.
posted on 4/11/24
For me, it's mostly about coaching, and let's be honest, after all this time, we have never had the right coach in, but hopefully we do now.
Even if we don't have great players, the right coach will get the best out of them, build confidence and results will turn etc. We can see teams around us with players who may be individually inferior, but as a squad of players are getting a lot more out of themselves, and there's where we need to be at, so then we can see where we need to improve player-wise.
But that will never happen until we get the right coach in. So come on Amorim, show us what you are made of
posted on 4/11/24
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Robben Amorim (U22716)
posted 14 minutes ago
Oh and we need to buy actual quality as well as potential. I can’t remember the last time we bought a bonafide top player that got us all excited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the budget for the bona fide top player, and who do you get?
posted on 4/11/24
wow those stats are mental
I didn't realise how bad they were
posted on 4/11/24
I don't think we can say the culture is self-evidently toxic. I think there are several players who don't have the athletic profile to put in as many high-intensity sprints as players at the most successful clubs do, which is a legacy of failing to address this in recruitment policy over years. I also think flawed coaching and (probably just as important) lack of consistency in tactics and coaching, combined with too many players whose formative years lacked in modern footballing education leads to a situation in which players want to follow the coach's instructions but in the split second you have to make a decision to press / make a run / release a pass they tend to hesitate and miss the opportunity. I think we're going to need some more squad churn for Amorim to shape a really fine team, and I believe that if we really want to get back to having a seat at the elite table, we have to be willing to sacrifice short-term performance in favour of the slow process of sticking to new footballing principles.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 13 minutes ago
There's nobody I'm aware of who is a bad apple. Rashford and Bruno are the people who people like to blame it on but apparently both are hugely popular figures in the dressing room. Neither of them are bad lads from what I can tell and what I have read.
It's a combination of poor recruitment, bad results and bad coaching that saps the confidence out of everything. That's the problem.
Rashford literally carried us back into the CL almost single handedly too in Erik's first season let's not forget. Without him we'd have finished where we did in year 2 and where are now roughly.
I think to put it all down to toxicity is such a cop out. It's way deeper than that as I have pointed out. We have been a terribly ran club for over a decade. Fans need to wake up and realise it. We just aren't a top club anymore. The name still is and that's literally it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends how you view toxicity. Personally I don't see popularity has anything to do with it. I doubt Keane was the most likeable or sociable bloke in the dressing room by any stretch. For me, toxicity is the state of the mentality in the players. The lack of desire, the lack of discipline, or even to improve themselves. When you have enough players with that mentality you develop a culture, and that's the toxicity.
posted on 4/11/24
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Playmaker
posted 4 minutes ago
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problems start from the top, and I appreciate you mentioning Woodward. Since David Gill’s departure, the club shifted its priorities, focusing on high profile names, often players past their best, mercenaries even, rather than building a cohesive, hardworking team. This approach set the wrong tone, but with the recent changes in sporting leadership, there’s finally a focus on re-establishing form on the pitch.
To me, work rate should be the bare minimum. It requires high fitness, and given our injury record, it’s possible some players are reluctant to sprint regularly. However, to deliver EtH's high press or Amorim’s intense, front foot style, players need to consistently expend far more energy than we’re currently seeing. These stats, putting us in relegation form, are an embarrassing reflection of that. Without effort, talent alone means nothing.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 minutes ago
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said.
There was a plan obviously but nobody seemed to get what it was he was telling them to do clearly.
I actually don't dislike this group of players. They seem like decent lads but they just aren't very good. That's ultimately the issue.
People ranting and raving about Amad and Garnacho and they'd be struggling to get on the bench in the great Fergie teams. This is just where we are now as a club. We did what Liverpool did in the 90's. We replaced elite winners with players not at that level and this is what happens.
I am sick of the in fighting and excuses. It's time the whole fanbase just realised we just aren't that good.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
I don’t think there is a toxic culture at the club. Certainly not like it appeared under Jose.
What I do see is players who clearly were not getting what ETH wanted them to do and that translated to performances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a valid point that a lack of understanding of EtH's vision or tactics might impact performance to some degree, but what about work rate itself? Effective pressing is about effort from all, not individual half hearted attempts to press, for example. Is this lack of co-ordinated pressing down to unclear messaging from the manager, or are there deeper issues affecting the players' effort and commitment to high press football? I am not denying poor coaching has not played a part, it simply has otherwise EtH would be our manager.
posted on 4/11/24
Toxic is the wrong word. Underacheiving, sub standard and inadequate are more like it. You need a winning culture to win the trophies that the club is talking about. United are a million miles from that. And that can only come from within. INEOS have started well with their appointments in finally creating a serious sporting club structure for football people to thrive from. They now need to continue that with their appointments on the coaching side now that they have grown a pair and got rid of Ten Hag, plus they seriously need to sit down with the new guy and rethink their player recruitment policy. And do all this whilst acheiving results that are acceptable to the paying supporters. Piece of pizz.
And yes it will take a while and cost them a load of money.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Vengeance (U23079)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by Playmaker
posted 4 minutes ago
Agree with the OP. Most of it was instilled under Woodward's tenure and his so-called bollox galaacticos approach and treating commercial enterprise as more important than what happens on the pitch. That all filtered down to the dressing room. Nothing typified this more than the signing of Pogba. He is a symbol of the poison that infected the club.
I'm 100% sure getting rid of Woodward and changing the heirarchy with actual football men and ppl who've proved themselves in rebuilding clubs will change the fortunes of our success. But it's only just happened and the infection runs deep, so it will take time.
I'm happy to be patient. I'm not even bothered if we don't win anything for a while. I just want to see a coherent approach to our football. Players coached in a particular style of play, suited to overall tactical strategy on the pitch which is easy to identify and difficult to play against. Something that gets the players fully invested in what the manager's trying to do and has them committed to it and improves them.
Others have managed to do this, and tbf the immediate impact hasn't take long. I'll include the likes of Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, fck it even Newcastle. The progress beyond this is what does take time, but just that initial impact over a season or two to begin with I'd be happy with because I think then we'd be well on our way.
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The problems start from the top, and I appreciate you mentioning Woodward. Since David Gill’s departure, the club shifted its priorities, focusing on high profile names, often players past their best, mercenaries even, rather than building a cohesive, hardworking team. This approach set the wrong tone, but with the recent changes in sporting leadership, there’s finally a focus on re-establishing form on the pitch.
To me, work rate should be the bare minimum. It requires high fitness, and given our injury record, it’s possible some players are reluctant to sprint regularly. However, to deliver EtH's high press or Amorim’s intense, front foot style, players need to consistently expend far more energy than we’re currently seeing. These stats, putting us in relegation form, are an embarrassing reflection of that. Without effort, talent alone means nothing.
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I agree completely. The missing factor also is the personality and man management skills of the manager. I think Ole's weakness meant players just thought it was ok not to put a shift in. On the flip side, ETH's persona didn't endear him enough to the players to even try. Coming in a being the sargeant major clearly didn't work, along with his poor communication skills. None of this excuses the players btw, but I do feel that Amorim has that persona and coaching ability to get players believing in him and busting a gut for him.
My opinion over the past 10 years is that the culture was instilled by lazy fckers who were brought in, mercenaries as you mentioned. They poisoned the dressing room. Then as new players arrived, rather than turning the culture the other way, no matter how talented or committed they were to begin with, they too got infected by the same attitude. It's like at one point or another they all succombed to it. Now with Woodward gone, Omar, Ashworth, Amorim in, slowly but surely we can isolate the negs orr turn them and get back on the right path.
posted on 4/11/24
. I think we're going to need some more squad churn for Amorim to shape a really fine team, and I believe that if we really want to get back to having a seat at the elite table, we have to be willing to sacrifice short-term performance in favour of the slow process of sticking to new footballing principles.
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RR, I agree. Building a high quality team under Amorim will likely demand substantial squad changes. However, given his relatively short contract, will he actually be given the time he needs? It's doubtful, especially if he doesn't start delivering results quickly. This season's priority is simply to avoid the embarrassment of being pulled into a relegation battle, if he manages that, it’s a small victory. Next summer will be telling, as the sporting leadership must further shape the squad to support Amorim’s long term vision.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by RB&W - He kicked lumps out of them (U21434)
posted 10 minutes ago
Toxic is the wrong word. Underacheiving, sub standard and inadequate are more like it. You need a winning culture to win the trophies that the club is talking about. United are a million miles from that. And that can only come from within. INEOS have started well with their appointments in finally creating a serious sporting club structure for football people to thrive from. They now need to continue that with their appointments on the coaching side now that they have grown a pair and got rid of Ten Hag, plus they seriously need to sit down with the new guy and rethink their player recruitment policy. And do all this whilst acheiving results that are acceptable to the paying supporters. Piece of pizz.
And yes it will take a while and cost them a load of money.
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posted on 4/11/24
Our players just aren’t very good. It’s why so few of them start for their national team.
posted on 4/11/24
Basically United need to win a few games right now.
posted on 4/11/24
I think once the team is struggling, which it has obv been for a while, it's difficult to turn it around, especially when there is a lack of true quality players in the team. And then that makes it more difficult for new squad members to make a great impression because the morale of the squad isn't great. Add to that a coach who isn't quite up to what we need, and well we are going to fall below any expectation.
But it's been a while since we have had a truly top class player, at the peak of his game.
Altho Fergie's teams were of course great, he also had quite a few what you would call decent but nothing special players in the squad (and let's be honest, some ropey ones also) but they integrated well, because we also had top quality players, a winning confident squad, and of course the best manager of the lot.
I think Amorim can be a top manager for us, get the best out of what we have, hopefully have a few youngsters who turn out to be really good, and over time we can bring in some decent quality players also.
Really not sure what to expect the rest of the season, but I think it may be better than a lot of people's expectations, or maybe they don't want to be too optimistic
posted on 4/11/24
correct, very toxic - but its the fans at the ground creating this culture.
my pal a United fan went to the Chelsea game yesterday, the abuse shouted at your own players from the tunnel awful.
I get it, being a Leeds fan myself (lets try and keep this sensible lads please) - its difficult to let accept that your time has past. not the current players fault? - all era's pass eventually.
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