comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 35 minutes ago

I'm confused. Are you a trump fan?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The opinion polls once again underestimated Trump's support among voters, which clearly tells us there are a lot of people out there who support Trump deep down, but will never say out loud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have something to say about me then say it to me directly, don’t be a wimp.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 13 minutes ago
I'm not missing your point, SatNav. I just don't accept it has any merit. But you did start by claiming the Democrats had 'weaponised' the justice system in a way that is equivalent to what we expect Trump to do. For that to hold any weight, you'd have to demonstrate that 1) Democrats have acted in a coordinated, strategic way, driven by the leadership and 2) that Trump's actions didn't merit prosecution. There is no evidence that the Biden administration has exerted political pressure on city / state / federal prosecutors. The key indictments were validated by grand juries (i.e. ordinary Americans who swore a solemn oath and were presented with the facts). And there is nothing in the those criminal processes so far that suggests the indictments were baseless.

Whether the indictments hurt or helped Trump is a separate question, but because they weren't the result of a political initiative on the part of Biden, I don't think it's very helpful to relate this to the topic of political tactics. However, since you digress into that territory, I'm sceptical about the truism that left-wing overreach is the main thing that feeds the growth of right-wing populism. Why is right-wing rhetoric increasingly racist? - Antifa went too far, people got fed up! Why are people turning to authoritarian ideas? - They're fed up with wokeism! Why do they call Trump a dangerous demagogue, why are they prosecuting him - that will only anger his supporters. All of these are variations of the idea that liberalism went too far and that made a lot of people get very illiberal. I think the authoritarian populist trend has more complicated roots than that, as evidenced by the fact that it is taking place across many geographies, including ones where conservative politics is already in power. The Tories moved successively in that direction between 2010 and 2024, presenting by far the most authoritarian and identitarian government in post-War history by the time they faced this year's election. And they lost largely because a large chunk of their electorate defected to a party that was even further to the right on the authoritarian/nationalist scale.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way did you reply to me earlier asking you to flesh out your statements? I think I missed it or you did.

Anyway, sticking with the example that I gave VC about the mishandling classified documents.

1. Do you think that Trump is the only president or senior politician to do so?
2. Out of those that also did, how many were charged?


That is why I brought up that example as it clearly demonstrates my point that the democrats ramped up legal proceedings against trump in order to discredit and hopefully jail him.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-trump-classified-documents-president-33df0355c72e9ae8fa4cb6ead13f6521


https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/05/17/not-just-trump-and-biden-every-administration-since-reagan-mishandled-classified-records-national-archives-finds/


And also as mentioned all of the illegal misdoings of other previous presidents which went without charges versus everything they threw at trump, is the disparity I am pointing to. I am not commenting on the legal validity of those charges as I, nor anyone here most likely, is qualified enough to intelligently pass judgment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And I disagree that I have to demonstrate that there was no legal merit in the charges. What I do have to demonstrate is the change in frequency and type of legal actions taken against current / former presidents. The classified documents matter is an example of that. The fact that people like Nixon, Clinton, Bush and Obama got off Scot-free for arguably worse crimes in some cases, further demonstrates it.

That is weaponising the legal system.

*to the charges

Furthermore RR, may I posit that the reason that previous governments didn’t indict and charge previous administrations as much as this recent democrat government has, is that they probably realised that by doing so they would be opening up a BIG can of worms as each administration has a hell of a lot of dirty laundry.

Given the sheer amount that Trump has been charged with, again rightly or wrongly that doesn’t matter, what do you think will be his reaction now over the next four years?

which clearly tells us there are a lot of people out there who support Trump deep down, but will never say out loud.

................

I alluded to this earlier on. The severe lack of any Trump flags or signs in people's yards in my neighborhood tells me that they were afraid or ashamed to admit they were voting for Trump.

If that was the case, then they should not have done so.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 24 minutes ago
He said he was going to build a wall and get Mexico to pay for it. You didn’t believe that but for some reason you believe this.

I wonder why…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People don't believe he will pull it off but they believe he will try. You make no point here.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 35 minutes ago

I'm confused. Are you a trump fan?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The opinion polls once again underestimated Trump's support among voters, which clearly tells us there are a lot of people out there who support Trump deep down, but will never say out loud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have something to say about me then say it to me directly, don’t be a wimp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and there was I thinking you'd not read what I said because I didn't @ you. I never thought I'd be exposed. How terrifying to be called out.

I can't be bothered to get further into the weeds with you because ultimately your mind is made up, and you won't take seriously the idea that Trumps misdemeanours are on a totally different scale to any other president within our lifetimes, drastically surpassing Nixon (who has for generations represented the high water mark of corruption).

Ultimately, everything you have said comes down to both-sides-ism, which is ultimately an unwillingness to draw meaningful conclusions and distinctions, either from moral apathy or intellectual laziness. I have nothing more to say to you.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 13 minutes ago
I'm not missing your point, SatNav. I just don't accept it has any merit. But you did start by claiming the Democrats had 'weaponised' the justice system in a way that is equivalent to what we expect Trump to do. For that to hold any weight, you'd have to demonstrate that 1) Democrats have acted in a coordinated, strategic way, driven by the leadership and 2) that Trump's actions didn't merit prosecution. There is no evidence that the Biden administration has exerted political pressure on city / state / federal prosecutors. The key indictments were validated by grand juries (i.e. ordinary Americans who swore a solemn oath and were presented with the facts). And there is nothing in the those criminal processes so far that suggests the indictments were baseless.

Whether the indictments hurt or helped Trump is a separate question, but because they weren't the result of a political initiative on the part of Biden, I don't think it's very helpful to relate this to the topic of political tactics. However, since you digress into that territory, I'm sceptical about the truism that left-wing overreach is the main thing that feeds the growth of right-wing populism. Why is right-wing rhetoric increasingly racist? - Antifa went too far, people got fed up! Why are people turning to authoritarian ideas? - They're fed up with wokeism! Why do they call Trump a dangerous demagogue, why are they prosecuting him - that will only anger his supporters. All of these are variations of the idea that liberalism went too far and that made a lot of people get very illiberal. I think the authoritarian populist trend has more complicated roots than that, as evidenced by the fact that it is taking place across many geographies, including ones where conservative politics is already in power. The Tories moved successively in that direction between 2010 and 2024, presenting by far the most authoritarian and identitarian government in post-War history by the time they faced this year's election. And they lost largely because a large chunk of their electorate defected to a party that was even further to the right on the authoritarian/nationalist scale.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way did you reply to me earlier asking you to flesh out your statements? I think I missed it or you did.

Anyway, sticking with the example that I gave VC about the mishandling classified documents.

1. Do you think that Trump is the only president or senior politician to do so?
2. Out of those that also did, how many were charged?

That is why I brought up that example as it clearly demonstrates my point that the democrats ramped up legal proceedings against trump in order to discredit and hopefully jail him.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-trump-classified-documents-president-33df0355c72e9ae8fa4cb6ead13f6521


https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/05/17/not-just-trump-and-biden-every-administration-since-reagan-mishandled-classified-records-national-archives-finds/


And also as mentioned all of the illegal misdoings of other previous presidents which went without charges versus everything they threw at trump, is the disparity I am pointing to. I am not commenting on the legal validity of those charges as I, nor anyone here most likely, is qualified enough to intelligently pass judgment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And I disagree that I have to demonstrate that there was no legal merit in the charges. What I do have to demonstrate is the change in frequency and type of legal actions taken against current / former presidents. The classified documents matter is an example of that. The fact that people like Nixon, Clinton, Bush and Obama got off Scot-free for arguably worse crimes in some cases, further demonstrates it.

That is weaponising the legal system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's bullsheet because former presidents weren't litigious ass holes from even before they became president. Those who live by the sword die by the sword

Also, it is standard election practice that if you are a sexual abuser then your opponents will use that against you. He molested girls in the past and when he ran for president it came back to haunt him. Boo facking hoo. Jan 6th is as clear as it gets and if the law did it's job he wouldn't even be running for president.

It's not the Dems fault that Trump is a criminal. Can't believe you're trying to shift the blame for Trump's sexual abuse.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 35 minutes ago

I'm confused. Are you a trump fan?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The opinion polls once again underestimated Trump's support among voters, which clearly tells us there are a lot of people out there who support Trump deep down, but will never say out loud.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have something to say about me then say it to me directly, don’t be a wimp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and there was I thinking you'd not read what I said because I didn't @ you. I never thought I'd be exposed. How terrifying to be called out.

I can't be bothered to get further into the weeds with you because ultimately your mind is made up, and you won't take seriously the idea that Trumps misdemeanours are on a totally different scale to any other president within our lifetimes, drastically surpassing Nixon (who has for generations represented the high water mark of corruption).

Ultimately, everything you have said comes down to both-sides-ism, which is ultimately an unwillingness to draw meaningful conclusions and distinctions, either from moral apathy or intellectual laziness. I have nothing more to say to you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why am I not surprised? You didn’t reply to my queries earlier either, intellectual cowardice. Enjoy your echo chamber in that case. 👍🏻

It’s shame you don’t have the capacity to understand what changes in patterns demonstrate and think it’s just both sides isms. You had no issue with former Twitter, with Facebook or google and their influence in politics but Elon Musk buys twitter and it’s the start of the galactic empire in episode 3. It’s so clichéd, peoplel owl you never learn.

comment by Trump 2024, Make America Great Again (U1282)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 13 minutes ago
I'm not missing your point, SatNav. I just don't accept it has any merit. But you did start by claiming the Democrats had 'weaponised' the justice system in a way that is equivalent to what we expect Trump to do. For that to hold any weight, you'd have to demonstrate that 1) Democrats have acted in a coordinated, strategic way, driven by the leadership and 2) that Trump's actions didn't merit prosecution. There is no evidence that the Biden administration has exerted political pressure on city / state / federal prosecutors. The key indictments were validated by grand juries (i.e. ordinary Americans who swore a solemn oath and were presented with the facts). And there is nothing in the those criminal processes so far that suggests the indictments were baseless.

Whether the indictments hurt or helped Trump is a separate question, but because they weren't the result of a political initiative on the part of Biden, I don't think it's very helpful to relate this to the topic of political tactics. However, since you digress into that territory, I'm sceptical about the truism that left-wing overreach is the main thing that feeds the growth of right-wing populism. Why is right-wing rhetoric increasingly racist? - Antifa went too far, people got fed up! Why are people turning to authoritarian ideas? - They're fed up with wokeism! Why do they call Trump a dangerous demagogue, why are they prosecuting him - that will only anger his supporters. All of these are variations of the idea that liberalism went too far and that made a lot of people get very illiberal. I think the authoritarian populist trend has more complicated roots than that, as evidenced by the fact that it is taking place across many geographies, including ones where conservative politics is already in power. The Tories moved successively in that direction between 2010 and 2024, presenting by far the most authoritarian and identitarian government in post-War history by the time they faced this year's election. And they lost largely because a large chunk of their electorate defected to a party that was even further to the right on the authoritarian/nationalist scale.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way did you reply to me earlier asking you to flesh out your statements? I think I missed it or you did.

Anyway, sticking with the example that I gave VC about the mishandling classified documents.

1. Do you think that Trump is the only president or senior politician to do so?
2. Out of those that also did, how many were charged?

That is why I brought up that example as it clearly demonstrates my point that the democrats ramped up legal proceedings against trump in order to discredit and hopefully jail him.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-trump-classified-documents-president-33df0355c72e9ae8fa4cb6ead13f6521


https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/05/17/not-just-trump-and-biden-every-administration-since-reagan-mishandled-classified-records-national-archives-finds/


And also as mentioned all of the illegal misdoings of other previous presidents which went without charges versus everything they threw at trump, is the disparity I am pointing to. I am not commenting on the legal validity of those charges as I, nor anyone here most likely, is qualified enough to intelligently pass judgment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And I disagree that I have to demonstrate that there was no legal merit in the charges. What I do have to demonstrate is the change in frequency and type of legal actions taken against current / former presidents. The classified documents matter is an example of that. The fact that people like Nixon, Clinton, Bush and Obama got off Scot-free for arguably worse crimes in some cases, further demonstrates it.

That is weaponising the legal system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's bullsheet because former presidents weren't litigious ass holes from even before they became president. Those who live by the sword die by the sword

Also, it is standard election practice that if you are a sexual abuser then your opponents will use that against you. He molested girls in the past and when he ran for president it came back to haunt him. Boo facking hoo. Jan 6th is as clear as it gets and if the law did it's job he wouldn't even be running for president.

It's not the Dems fault that Trump is a criminal. Can't believe you're trying to shift the blame for Trump's sexual abuse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoooosh

A lot of Americans at my company voted trump but have kept it on the hush hush and are pretending as if they didn't.
They're ashamed but do it anyway.

Why am I not surprised? You didn’t reply to my queries earlier either, intellectual cowardice. Enjoy your echo chamber in that case. 👍🏻

---------------------------------------------------------------

When you say there's no point in discussing further with VC because he's not engaging on your terms, that's perfectly fine. When I end a conversation, it's because I'm afraid of being challenged.

I've spent the last six months voraciously consuming commentary that I hope will teach me things I don't know about the US election and what is driving public opinion. After lots of unpleasant shocks in recent years, I have no interest in comforting ideas that confirm what I want to hear. So no, I'm not retreating into an echo chamber. I just don't think you have any light to shed, nor do I owe you answers to arguments I find specious and based on an astonishing lack of perspective. My grumpy tone is regrettable but you seem to have spectacularly misread the mood of a room that is hurting badly, and very anxious about the future.

I do find it odd the number of people who vote for someone but are too afraid to admit it.

I get if you don't want to talk about it, but if you're too scared to admit who you voted for then you can't be that confident in your vote, and you're aware there's reasons why you should almost feel ashamed.

comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 14 minutes ago
A lot of Americans at my company voted trump but have kept it on the hush hush and are pretending as if they didn't.
They're ashamed but do it anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, this is definitely a thing. Plenty of closet Trumpers out there.

Didn’t Trump get less votes this year compared to 2020? The big difference was the number of votes for the Dems.

comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 2 hours, 7 minutes ago
RFK jr is to be health chief

His views on vaccines are quite worrying
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah it’s fine they’ll just get all the sick folk to pray the illness away

comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (U1192)
posted 14 minutes ago
A lot of Americans at my company voted trump but have kept it on the hush hush and are pretending as if they didn't.
They're ashamed but do it anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, this is definitely a thing. Plenty of closet Trumpers out there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's obvious when the discussion of the day comes up in the teams chat that has dozens of yanks in that say "just popping out to vote back soon might be delayed cos of queues".

You ask them who they voted and they go dead silent. I've prodded a few of them direct, some admitted they voted trump. I bet the majority of them did.

Got group chats with like 100 odd yanks in, all do the same thing.

I don't remember anyone in England advertising that they were leaving the office to go vote.

Obviously some people like to keep it private but why let everyone in the group you're off out to vote?
I dunno, Americans are weird.

Sat Nav, so just to be clear on this:

You don't believe Trump to be any more nor any less dishonest than any of his predecessors?

comment by Red Russian (U4715)

My grumpy tone is regrettable but you seem to have spectacularly misread the mood of a room that is hurting badly, and very anxious about the future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think if people are hurting over this and anxious about the future they need to do a bit of self reflection. Easy to expect the World to change and complain how it's not living up to your expectations, harder to change yourself to accept this is what is and not be so reactive to everything that's going on.

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
Didn’t Trump get less votes this year compared to 2020? The big difference was the number of votes for the Dems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. The Biden administration bungled everything and deflated the Dems base. Dems supporters see themselves as the party the fights genocide, not enables it.

Yes VC you did get it horribly wrong and have done so for the last 4 years.

comment by Bats Uncensored (U18355)
posted 33 minutes ago
Yes VC you did get it horribly wrong and have done so for the last 4 years.
----------------------------------------------------------

I can’t be right all the time. It is the first out of six I got wrong.

If you need to cheer yourself up just imagine how great South Park is gonna be for the next four year

South Park delayed season 27 because of the election and they didn’t want Trump to win at all because they are going to lose Garrison as a character again.