great win too to get passed sttutgart - the Rangers games were disapointing, Lukic punching into his own net

Hatley scored too didn't he, in that game and the return game at ER? - was a big fan of him actually, was pleased when we signed him, until I realised his age

I was at the ER game v Rangers, very very flat game.

(U12978) great passion though you need a different hobby mate

watch the Barca game the other day? good game eh?

looking forward to the Manchester Derby? - will be good won't it...

reading your words Pal makes me think you don't like KB

chill cousin, try been relegated 4 divsions in one foul swoop... it can be worse

Jonty, did you scrutinise Ridsdale for where the money went, or where it came from in this way? - or is kind of that why you are doing with KB, kind of a leson learnt?

Also, Leeds were in the championship for ten years in the 80's (ish) weren't they, was it the same again then, chairman taking grief?.

well, I have another baby due in June, and my business is booming, I love watching Leeds, and of course my first team Fiorentina...... I actually rather like my life, I just don't feel the need to scrutinise every transaction made by KB, it is a pitty nobody did this with Ridsdael really?? - KB doesn't have a fish tank to my knoweldge.

Good day to all

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there's no hope for you, your argument has absolutely no substance to it. I will criticise anybody who I think is holding the club back, but due to my nature I will gravitate towards whatever I think is the heart of the problem. I don't think Grayson was very good but I overlooked his short comings because it's impossible to know how well he'd have done had he been given the proper backing to improve on the squad that finished outside the playoffs, instead of having half of it sold off and been told to get replacements for peanuts.

This wasn't done with Ridsdale because we were caught out, we were blindsided and even then, we genuinely thought we'd manage to stay up there in which case the spending would have been covered.

I do not like ken bates because I think he's a lying manipulative so and so and he's not as good a business man as he'd have everyone believe. His business history is an absolute tragedy, he's never left a business in a better state than he found it and he's been in control of a lot. So where does this unfounded confidence in his administration come from? I'd say £33 million turnover with a £11.6 million player wage budget and still having to sell players to make any notable profit would be enough proof. That's just shy of £22 million that's gone missing. A large amount of that is covering the losses of the Pavilion and Yorkshire Radio, as well as paying their staff for what I can only assume is to make their respective accounts look less horrifying.

There's all this money moving around in questionable ways, everything is shrouded by "undisclosed fees" and companies based in offshore tax havens with anonymous owners. There are no other football clubs running with such little transparency. It's just not a coincidence. No body runs anything like this unless they've got something to hide.

I care about this so much because Leeds United is an important part of my life and seeing the life sucked out of it is ruining my enjoyment of it. The divided fans, the constant berating of people who don't deserve it, the rummaging around for scraps and then having the chairman act all innocent with his wondering why it's not working, instead blaming everybody but himself.

He's not infallible, tuscany, but you defend him as if he is. Alienating fans alone is enough. A good businessman does not call a large number of his paying customers morons because they complain that they aren't getting what they pay for.

I wouldn't say I'm blinded by hatred of bates, I just don't think he's done anything worthwhile in the time he's been at Leeds. Anything that looks like it's good for the club on the outside has, when put in context, shown itself to be a hollow move. Hiring Warnock? Great, fantastic manager. Hiring Warnock the day after the transfer window to "get more out of the current squad", despite Grayson's card being marked for months and it making more sense to give Warnock time in the transfer window to make changes? This is the context of Warnock's arrival. Where are the best interests of the club considered? Saved our club? He endangered it in the first place. Threatening to liquidate it unless he stayed in charge after doubling the clubs debt. I have my own theory on why the debt to the offshore company was written off if bates stayed in charge but this post is getting too long as it is.

And for the record "where were you when we were doing crap in the 80s? Where were you when Ridsdale was in charge?" is not a valid argument - the failings of others does not excuse the failings of the current administration. I wasn't alive for most of the 80s but I guarantee I'd have been criticising those responsible for any lack of progress. That is what I am doing now. The saddest part of the Ridsdale crash is that now people use it as an excuse for bates questionable policies. The transfer policy isn't even the worst part of it, it's the fact that they show absolutely no respect for the fans. There's no policies in place for keeping the fans happy. Every time a special offer comes up, it's for an optional extra that doesn't involve the ticket buying masses and requires spending more money, or it's an offer that brings something down to a price that is still more than you'd expect to pay at any other club - 20% off programme subscription, it's still £3.20 per programme, it's still the highest price of a programme in the country, and most of the pages are just adverts. "Renew your season ticket early and get the same high price as you paid last year! In January! So we can get your money before we've had chance to not spend it!".

If you don't wish to get involved in the politics of the club, instead just want to forget about it and enjoy your football, that's fine by me. But don't you dare look down your nose at me for expressing my discontent. You might be willing to accept mediocrity for a high price, you might just have the mental strength to not let it ruin your matchday experience, but not all of us are the same. I find it hard to enjoy my matchday experience when I feel I'm getting robbed every step of the way, having mediocrity shoved down my throat in an attempt to low expectations and "condition" me for treading water and making up the numbers.

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But don't you dare look down your nose at me for expressing my discontent.

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pot and kettle

I also dare to do what I like. Alea Casino in Leeds come and see me between 10pm and 3am if you have anymore abuse you'd like to hurl at me

Tuscany

He's had eight years, long enough mate.

What i mean is, people just guess and say the manager hasnt had any money and we dont pay good wages, even though the facts show that we do.

My gripe is that it should be more with the turnover the FANS generate

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This. Exactly this. "enough" is a subjective term. What we're spending would be "enough" for a mid table Championship team with high hopes and a great manager hoping to break into the playoffs and get into the Premier League. Leeds United, being the biggest club in the Championship by a large margin, are not this club - why should a club with so much money available have to take this strategy? Why is it so important that Leeds United, a club that, if it doesn't belong in the Premier League, at the very least has fans that deserve the Premier League in such large numbers, spend so little in a goal that the board claim is what they want more than anything? Why is it a case of "we want Premier League football, but only if its cheap"? We've got the money to give ourselves a massive advantage, the only problem with using that advantage is the risk involved, which in the grand scheme of things there is none, for us at least. If we spent all the money we can afford to spend on the playing staff, which I estimate is ~£20 million, the worst case scenario is we get in a few players that aren't good enough, or don't gel, or the manager gets his tactics wrong, and there's a load of money spent that could have been spent on what exactly? It's a football club, it doesn't need to spend money on anything other than football.

It just feels to me that bates has this opinion that players aren't worth as much as they are getting paid and he's going to be the one who saved football from those greedy b****rds. It's not as if they are the ones that go out there every week and provide the entertainment that brings in all that money... oh wait they are! But I suppose the bloke who never visits games and, I'd imagine, doesn't actually do much in terms of running the club, deserve a bigger wedge of it.

It's like they are protecting the club from a worst case scenario that's unlikely to happen - money being spent on players that aren't good enough - and even if it were to happen it's unlikely to cause any kind of disaster because £20 million from a £33 million turnover (that would increase if that money were spent) is not going to make the club go bust, so instead they do the opposite, spend as little money as possible and hope for the best case scenario - something else that's unlikely to happen - that we magically get a Championship winning squad out of players who didn't have clubs (for a reason) and loanees who aren't getting into their first teams (for a reason). Forget that it's a rare occurrence that we find these gems of unproven, unheard of players, bates wants to build an entire team on that rare occurrence.

Can I watch this fight

I assumed you'd be backing him up LIW

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Clearly if you can afford to spend several hours in a casino, presumably on a regular basis, you probably have disposable income

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I own it what time will you be there?

Tuscany

Is your casino next to james martin place, ive been in there

tell you something though, your use of English is really good, no joke at all, can I assume you are the one who wrote that letter on not606? the one that Cozer published the other day on JA606?

you know, if you took out your bad language and petty insults you'd come across as very intellegent... I like fans passion, I love your passion, but you must understand we all have different views on a subjuect....

Jonty, I agree with that, and I must admit for a football fan it is hard to take, especially from other fans comments towards us, but you are quiet right that we don't have any right to be in the prem, there are lots of other clubs etc, West Brom for me is a great example of a club that is well run, (I could be wrong) but they are in the prem, makes profit, yet are a feeder club, any time they get a half decent player he move on for bigger wages etc... thing is the West Brom fans are perfectly happy with this, Leeds fans aren't. I think thats why the KB thing divides us, becuase it is fair to say that nearly every club (speaking from Italian football fan's point of veiw) the chairman has questions to answer after the accounts, Ridsdake did for sure, and in fact he's taken every club he's been with into admin it's football these days that means you have to be massively backed to move up to top ten, Villa did it for a while, but in the end couldn't sustain it, this is why IMO the hotel thing, and the other steams of business are vital for long term future success.
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This is where your argument falls down, how is a hotel that is practically guaranteed to make losses for at least its first few years of existence due to the massive outgoing expenditure, and unlikely to make back those losses for 20 years due to low profit margins, how is that going to make any difference? It will be the club that pays for the losses, and in the unlikely event that the hotel or any of the other side ventures do eventually start to make profit, it will be so far in the future, and the stagnation of Leeds United will have long since scared away half the fan base and failed to develop a new fan base, at which point any profits that are made will be overshadowed by the drop in income from having far fewer fans.

These plans for the future are so misguided, overlooking the most important factor - people. Your biggest asset as any business is people. Staff and customers. There's no growth at Leeds because of the stagnation, this stagnation has already caused us to miss out on the biggest growth period the game has ever seen and is ever likely to see, and the club is making no effort to remedy that by bringing fans in. The business plan is completely inflexible. It doesn't take into account anything other than the vague premise that non-footballing ventures provide guaranteed income, regardless of how little that is and regardless of how it's not going to compensate from the loss of fanbase.

The fans are the biggest asset, they board have neglected them. Leeds United is going backwards.

this read pretty much like 666 writes

I always wondered if Alia was you when you mentioned other week about one in Leeds...

a lad i know was there last night with his company having ameal.

you know, if you took out your bad language and petty insults you'd come across as very intellegent... I like fans passion, I love your passion, but you must understand we all have different views on a subjuect....

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I have written a second revision. I have taken out the petty insults I think (might be one or two I've missed). There's a little bad language in there for effect, I like to make sure my writing expresses emotion and a little well timed, well used bad language is very effective.

As for owning the casino, congratulations, you've now proven to me why it means so little to you that the club is run well. It doesn't really matter because no matter how little you get for your money, you have so much disposable income. I'd imagine you are in the crowd making use of the new multimillion pound facilities that your average fan will never see and has no reason to care about. Again, only the poor man suffers, and who ever cared about them?

LIW.. I thought that too I must say he liked his essays too

if it is you elmond, fair play, hope you are well

Tuscs

Your name isnt MJS

(U12978) - ok I admit a Leeds ticket hardley dents my bank account, but it still doesn't take way the fact that I support Leeds, and I want my children to also... I just enjoy watching Leeds, I'm not sure what else I can say. I don't want to be abused becuase of this fact though, it's not appropriate nor is it nessessary.

Maybe though, you do have a point, my first love is Fiorentina, so maybe I'm not caught up on this Bates thing as say yourself, Jonty, LIW etc because I can actually accept that Leeds are simply an average club currently -

LIW, yes it is there, we had James Martin coming in with his Sports car not so long ago, we had a day of it,

Pags, I todl you on the same thread it was Alea

I missed that comment Tusc. Sorry.

My uncle been a few times as well. Thats the one on Clarence Dock isn't it. EXPENSIVE

Tuscany

I was there that day to look at his cars.

So you own that and all the other casinos under alea

Pags, expensive? value for money you'll find

next time your unlce is there let me know, I'm sure theres something we can do for him

I'm gunna be honest mate I know full well you don't deserve abuse, I'm just endlessly frustrated and recently found out I suffer from repressed anger issues. First step is to not repress anger any more.

Leeds are an average team, not an average club, but the current board are turning Leeds into an average, also rans club. This is the scariest thing, that we'll end up as a club with very few fans, with the best we can ever hope for is a couple of seasons struggling to survive in the Premier League, or at most making up the numbers in the Premier League, but then again it would still be high hopes for that. I expect Premier League football as a minimum for an ambitious Leeds United. I don't expect Champion's League football or winning the Premier League, but I want Leeds to be up there attempting to do so, something which will not be a viable option when bates turns us into a tin pot club because he neglects fans and overlooks the importance of bringing in new fans. Did you know you can't buy a Leeds United shirt in shops in Leeds City Centre? So you take your kid to buy a brand new football shirt, either you go down to the Elland Road shop, which is quite out of the way if you're going shopping, or you go into a sports shop in Leeds looking, only to have your kid turn around and say "i want that red one, I've seen those on the telly!". Potential fan lost. Not everyone is aware they can use their powers as the "superhero dad" that every young boy sees to make sure their young lad follows Leeds United, and in turn every fan lost means being a Leeds fan in a Leeds school is increasingly more "uncool", and no kid wants to be uncool. The domino effect of neglecting fans, it scares me. People are your most valuable asset, bates misunderstood this as meaning he can get a fat wad for selling players and a fat wad for charging the people who are stupid enough to walk through the turnstiles.

Value for money as much as losing it all is...

not the Glasgow one, we let them use the name, for a fee of course - some unsavouries if you ask me, but it's not my business how other people operate

Nottingham, Leeds are mine