Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Because they aren't of coaching and management age.
To get a better idea would be to look at the percentages of black players in England and Wales for the black coaches and managers around today.
That's true. People expect there to be a bunch of black men waiting in the wings with both the ability and the credentials to manage a club just because it would be more widely accepted now. It will take time.
Rushing people into place just to satisfy the numbers would be stupid.
Gazza, yeah it is. I think it's difficult to make sense of these statistics, however, because the English league has become such an open market to players and coaches from all around the globe, so it's difficult to look at the stats when football is a meritocracy in management and players so judging this based on race is very hard.
Look at the amount of Spaniards playing in the prem now, for example. That's because they've managed to build up such a huge pool of talent.
comment by Gazza (U1266)
posted 56 seconds ago
It is ridiculous that 28% (I think) of all professional players in England and Wales are black but there are only 2 black managers. There has to be a reason for it and I doubt it is as convenient as black players don't look to enter management as much when they retire.
The argument for the Rooney rule (and why it worked relatively well in the NFL) is that chairman/owners do not consider the possibility of employing a black manager, they just simply overlook it. So just by having a rule that allows them to get a foot in the door, you start to break down the institutional racism that has developed.
I would hope that now there are more high profile black star players than ever before who have attained legendary status at their clubs, market forces will break down the system anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why this is so hard to understand is baffling. In the NFL the population of at least 60% African American had no black manager. Seriously. There is a problem and ignoring it like its not there is foolish.
For any of this to make any sense, you need to know how many black guys are even taking their coaching badges. If the same ~30% are taking the course, applying for jobs and not getting the jobs - then you might have a point.
Most are going at this argument without finding out the most basic details.
I hate the term "African American", thank god we don't have the same term here. It's offensive in itself.
Don't you need UEFA 'A', 'B' and Pro licences to be a manager?
In the UK I think we have a really low number of qualified coaches in comparison to the rest of major European nations. If we have a small number, then any minority in that group is going to be an even smaller number.
Rather than try to look at the ratio of black players to white players 10-20 years ago and try to project that there should be more black managers now and even more in another 10-20 years, maybe we should just look at the numbers of who is actually qualified to manage and how many are of ethnic backgrounds?
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 1 minute ago
For any of this to make any sense, you need to know how many black guys are even taking their coaching badges. If the same ~30% are taking the course, applying for jobs and not getting the jobs - then you might have a point.
Most are going at this argument without finding out the most basic details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HC, even if you don't have that around 30% doing their badges, it would be interesting to try and find out why they are not doing so. There a lot of issues at a various levels that could result in a lower proportion of black managers than one might expect - it's a complex issue.
This is why I'm not particulary in favour of a Rooney rule (beside the fact I'm against any type of discrimination based on race, gender, etc. positive or negative) - a Rooney rule is, at best, addressing a symptom without tackling the causes of the issue, and at worse trying to deal with a problem that may not even exist.
This is why I'm not particulary in favour of a Rooney rule (beside the fact I'm against any type of discrimination based on race, gender, etc. positive or negative) - a Rooney rule is, at best, addressing a symptom without tackling the causes of the issue, and at worse trying to deal with a problem that may not even exist.
------
I agree with this.
...no, 'at worst' you'll have a handful of black guys rushing round attending a load of interviews to fill a quota.
Until someone puts on this thread how people complete their badges a year, and how many of them are black, yellow, purple or gold - stating how many black managers are in the league is pretty meaningless. It may very well be entirely representative of the people available to pick from.
You can call someone 'of colour' but not 'coloured'
Alan Hansen was happy to call John Barnes 'a coloured lad'.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Quit giving diego costa a bad name
Do you find the term 'coloured' acceptable? What about referring to someone as 'colourless'?
comment by Alsace Hop Farmer (U20041)
posted 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 1 minute ago
I am not filled with any guilt actually. I want a fairer society for everyone because I believe it is a basic right for all human beings.
I am well aware of the issues we have as a society and believe we should work together to fix them. Not approach these issues with ignorance like you do which is pathetic.
It is refreshing to see that my suggestion that everyone should have a fair share offends you so much.
Now I wonder with the views you have, how you would react to a minority who applied for a job in your organisation.
He would get a fair crack, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If someones credentials are there i'd shortlist them, i wont be told "replace three white ones with blacks to make it fair" tho.
Blacks need to up their game, Indian kids in this country top A-Level results and usually have good jobs like doctors etc. And they started with the same advantages as black immigrants...but they are earning their way to the top.
Its the same in America, Jews, Italians, Irish, Poles, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans etc all came poor and faced discrimination but they have worked hard and got places while Blacks are still at bottom of the pile...is it racism or is it a cultural thing? They cant make excuses forever.
==================================
Feck me sideways!
---------------------------------------------------------------------<Laugh> bolldy hell! Statistically what he said is true. , but it's so much harder to succeed coming from a disadvantaged postion. Inner city culture does not help with this either. Asian culture is very family focused with a high drive for success from the parents, which is one of the reasons they do so well. From an anthropological perspective, There's probably a correlation between family situation and child's success, I'd be interested to see what the stats say with regards racial family situations. A smart man would bet assign families are the most secure, followed by white, then coloured folks. Which would match the stats.
Rooney rule is BS. If there were enough good Asian or black coaches, then I'd hope they would be given the chance they deserve.
2 points.
Positive discrimination is still discrimination and I have witnessed it many times. I've been told a couple of times in the past I didnt get a job or promotion becuase they were told they had to give it to a woman even though I was the better candidate.
The only colour that means anything in modern football is green, the colour of money. If a black manager was the best choice to bring more money into a club they would get the job. End of.
I'd encourage you to take a trip to South Africa sometime, for a more enhanced example of the one we're discussing.
You read the history, see the issue, and then come back and try to tell me that it's as simple as 'the best man gets the job'.
The UK, thankfully, is ahead of SA in that sense.
But the problem is of the same ilk, and to ignore it completely really is naïve, if not ignorant.
______________________________
We're not in fecking South Africa.
Also, here's a point we all seem to forget, 3% of the English population are black, and near as damn it 3% of the managers in the English football league are black.
There should really be a quota for white men in the 100m sprint finals. Such a racist competition, .
52% of white football coaches are managers.
7% of black football coaches are managers.
About that anyway, the figures are from 2013
It's not about a quota, just reminding the clubs that black managers deserve a fair chance.
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 4 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Alsace Hop Farmer (U20041)
posted 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 1 minute ago
I am not filled with any guilt actually. I want a fairer society for everyone because I believe it is a basic right for all human beings.
I am well aware of the issues we have as a society and believe we should work together to fix them. Not approach these issues with ignorance like you do which is pathetic.
It is refreshing to see that my suggestion that everyone should have a fair share offends you so much.
Now I wonder with the views you have, how you would react to a minority who applied for a job in your organisation.
He would get a fair crack, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If someones credentials are there i'd shortlist them, i wont be told "replace three white ones with blacks to make it fair" tho.
Blacks need to up their game, Indian kids in this country top A-Level results and usually have good jobs like doctors etc. And they started with the same advantages as black immigrants...but they are earning their way to the top.
Its the same in America, Jews, Italians, Irish, Poles, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans etc all came poor and faced discrimination but they have worked hard and got places while Blacks are still at bottom of the pile...is it racism or is it a cultural thing? They cant make excuses forever.
==================================
Feck me sideways!
---------------------------------------------------------------------<Laugh> bolldy hell! Statistically what he said is true. , but it's so much harder to succeed coming from a disadvantaged postion. Inner city culture does not help with this either. Asian culture is very family focused with a high drive for success from the parents, which is one of the reasons they do so well. From an anthropological perspective, There's probably a correlation between family situation and child's success, I'd be interested to see what the stats say with regards racial family situations. A smart man would bet assign families are the most secure, followed by white, then coloured folks. Which would match the stats.
Rooney rule is BS. If there were enough good Asian or black coaches, then I'd hope they would be given the chance they deserve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How the hell did my name get attached to any of this comments!!!!
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Black Managers
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posted on 1/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/10/14
Because they aren't of coaching and management age.
To get a better idea would be to look at the percentages of black players in England and Wales for the black coaches and managers around today.
posted on 1/10/14
posted on 1/10/14
That's true. People expect there to be a bunch of black men waiting in the wings with both the ability and the credentials to manage a club just because it would be more widely accepted now. It will take time.
Rushing people into place just to satisfy the numbers would be stupid.
posted on 1/10/14
Gazza, yeah it is. I think it's difficult to make sense of these statistics, however, because the English league has become such an open market to players and coaches from all around the globe, so it's difficult to look at the stats when football is a meritocracy in management and players so judging this based on race is very hard.
Look at the amount of Spaniards playing in the prem now, for example. That's because they've managed to build up such a huge pool of talent.
posted on 1/10/14
RTM, yeah I agree.
posted on 1/10/14
comment by Gazza (U1266)
posted 56 seconds ago
It is ridiculous that 28% (I think) of all professional players in England and Wales are black but there are only 2 black managers. There has to be a reason for it and I doubt it is as convenient as black players don't look to enter management as much when they retire.
The argument for the Rooney rule (and why it worked relatively well in the NFL) is that chairman/owners do not consider the possibility of employing a black manager, they just simply overlook it. So just by having a rule that allows them to get a foot in the door, you start to break down the institutional racism that has developed.
I would hope that now there are more high profile black star players than ever before who have attained legendary status at their clubs, market forces will break down the system anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why this is so hard to understand is baffling. In the NFL the population of at least 60% African American had no black manager. Seriously. There is a problem and ignoring it like its not there is foolish.
posted on 1/10/14
For any of this to make any sense, you need to know how many black guys are even taking their coaching badges. If the same ~30% are taking the course, applying for jobs and not getting the jobs - then you might have a point.
Most are going at this argument without finding out the most basic details.
posted on 1/10/14
I hate the term "African American", thank god we don't have the same term here. It's offensive in itself.
posted on 1/10/14
Don't you need UEFA 'A', 'B' and Pro licences to be a manager?
In the UK I think we have a really low number of qualified coaches in comparison to the rest of major European nations. If we have a small number, then any minority in that group is going to be an even smaller number.
Rather than try to look at the ratio of black players to white players 10-20 years ago and try to project that there should be more black managers now and even more in another 10-20 years, maybe we should just look at the numbers of who is actually qualified to manage and how many are of ethnic backgrounds?
posted on 1/10/14
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 1 minute ago
For any of this to make any sense, you need to know how many black guys are even taking their coaching badges. If the same ~30% are taking the course, applying for jobs and not getting the jobs - then you might have a point.
Most are going at this argument without finding out the most basic details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HC, even if you don't have that around 30% doing their badges, it would be interesting to try and find out why they are not doing so. There a lot of issues at a various levels that could result in a lower proportion of black managers than one might expect - it's a complex issue.
This is why I'm not particulary in favour of a Rooney rule (beside the fact I'm against any type of discrimination based on race, gender, etc. positive or negative) - a Rooney rule is, at best, addressing a symptom without tackling the causes of the issue, and at worse trying to deal with a problem that may not even exist.
posted on 1/10/14
This is why I'm not particulary in favour of a Rooney rule (beside the fact I'm against any type of discrimination based on race, gender, etc. positive or negative) - a Rooney rule is, at best, addressing a symptom without tackling the causes of the issue, and at worse trying to deal with a problem that may not even exist.
------
I agree with this.
posted on 1/10/14
...no, 'at worst' you'll have a handful of black guys rushing round attending a load of interviews to fill a quota.
Until someone puts on this thread how people complete their badges a year, and how many of them are black, yellow, purple or gold - stating how many black managers are in the league is pretty meaningless. It may very well be entirely representative of the people available to pick from.
posted on 1/10/14
You can call someone 'of colour' but not 'coloured'
posted on 1/10/14
Can you?
posted on 1/10/14
Alan Hansen was happy to call John Barnes 'a coloured lad'.
posted on 1/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/10/14
Quit giving diego costa a bad name
posted on 1/10/14
Do you find the term 'coloured' acceptable? What about referring to someone as 'colourless'?
posted on 1/10/14
comment by Alsace Hop Farmer (U20041)
posted 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 1 minute ago
I am not filled with any guilt actually. I want a fairer society for everyone because I believe it is a basic right for all human beings.
I am well aware of the issues we have as a society and believe we should work together to fix them. Not approach these issues with ignorance like you do which is pathetic.
It is refreshing to see that my suggestion that everyone should have a fair share offends you so much.
Now I wonder with the views you have, how you would react to a minority who applied for a job in your organisation.
He would get a fair crack, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If someones credentials are there i'd shortlist them, i wont be told "replace three white ones with blacks to make it fair" tho.
Blacks need to up their game, Indian kids in this country top A-Level results and usually have good jobs like doctors etc. And they started with the same advantages as black immigrants...but they are earning their way to the top.
Its the same in America, Jews, Italians, Irish, Poles, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans etc all came poor and faced discrimination but they have worked hard and got places while Blacks are still at bottom of the pile...is it racism or is it a cultural thing? They cant make excuses forever.
==================================
Feck me sideways!
---------------------------------------------------------------------<Laugh> bolldy hell! Statistically what he said is true. , but it's so much harder to succeed coming from a disadvantaged postion. Inner city culture does not help with this either. Asian culture is very family focused with a high drive for success from the parents, which is one of the reasons they do so well. From an anthropological perspective, There's probably a correlation between family situation and child's success, I'd be interested to see what the stats say with regards racial family situations. A smart man would bet assign families are the most secure, followed by white, then coloured folks. Which would match the stats.
Rooney rule is BS. If there were enough good Asian or black coaches, then I'd hope they would be given the chance they deserve.
posted on 1/10/14
2 points.
Positive discrimination is still discrimination and I have witnessed it many times. I've been told a couple of times in the past I didnt get a job or promotion becuase they were told they had to give it to a woman even though I was the better candidate.
The only colour that means anything in modern football is green, the colour of money. If a black manager was the best choice to bring more money into a club they would get the job. End of.
posted on 1/10/14
I'd encourage you to take a trip to South Africa sometime, for a more enhanced example of the one we're discussing.
You read the history, see the issue, and then come back and try to tell me that it's as simple as 'the best man gets the job'.
The UK, thankfully, is ahead of SA in that sense.
But the problem is of the same ilk, and to ignore it completely really is naïve, if not ignorant.
______________________________
We're not in fecking South Africa.
Also, here's a point we all seem to forget, 3% of the English population are black, and near as damn it 3% of the managers in the English football league are black.
posted on 2/10/14
There should really be a quota for white men in the 100m sprint finals. Such a racist competition, .
posted on 2/10/14
52% of white football coaches are managers.
7% of black football coaches are managers.
About that anyway, the figures are from 2013
It's not about a quota, just reminding the clubs that black managers deserve a fair chance.
posted on 2/10/14
comment by Baz tard (U19119)
posted 4 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Alsace Hop Farmer (U20041)
posted 3 hours, 34 minutes ago
comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 1 minute ago
I am not filled with any guilt actually. I want a fairer society for everyone because I believe it is a basic right for all human beings.
I am well aware of the issues we have as a society and believe we should work together to fix them. Not approach these issues with ignorance like you do which is pathetic.
It is refreshing to see that my suggestion that everyone should have a fair share offends you so much.
Now I wonder with the views you have, how you would react to a minority who applied for a job in your organisation.
He would get a fair crack, right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If someones credentials are there i'd shortlist them, i wont be told "replace three white ones with blacks to make it fair" tho.
Blacks need to up their game, Indian kids in this country top A-Level results and usually have good jobs like doctors etc. And they started with the same advantages as black immigrants...but they are earning their way to the top.
Its the same in America, Jews, Italians, Irish, Poles, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans etc all came poor and faced discrimination but they have worked hard and got places while Blacks are still at bottom of the pile...is it racism or is it a cultural thing? They cant make excuses forever.
==================================
Feck me sideways!
---------------------------------------------------------------------<Laugh> bolldy hell! Statistically what he said is true. , but it's so much harder to succeed coming from a disadvantaged postion. Inner city culture does not help with this either. Asian culture is very family focused with a high drive for success from the parents, which is one of the reasons they do so well. From an anthropological perspective, There's probably a correlation between family situation and child's success, I'd be interested to see what the stats say with regards racial family situations. A smart man would bet assign families are the most secure, followed by white, then coloured folks. Which would match the stats.
Rooney rule is BS. If there were enough good Asian or black coaches, then I'd hope they would be given the chance they deserve.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How the hell did my name get attached to any of this comments!!!!
Page 4 of 7
6 | 7