I'm voting 'leave'. There are many reasons but the main one is due to the patronising tone from the 'remain' camp as if people are too stupid to understand and analyse data and reports and ideas for themselves.

Also I have faith in the idea that, if push comes to shove then some political leader of some party will take charge and lead the country rather than merrily sitting back and getting told what to do by some all imposing entitiy in Brussels.

I also have faith that, if we vote to stay then everything won't be hunky-dory. Some other country will have their own vote - maybe Spain relating to Catalan independence, if they eventually vote out then we'll have shackled ourself to a sinking ship.

My wife's gran has a postalvote, she voted 'leave' and proudly told us all why the other day.

The EU is stronger with us but I don't think we're stronger with them. We should leave and watch them come begging us to change our mind.

Also it would give us the chance to cut Scotland loose on our own terms.

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think it boils down to three main reasons for out voters.

1. They want an end to immigration. This won't happen in my opinion as we'll have to negotiate a deal with the EU like Norway, allowing free movement, thus possibly signing up to Schengen, which will mean more immigration as Schengen visa holders only need to get it in another EU country which allows them free travel, which the UK aren't part of. Some countries not in the EU have agreements for visa free travel to Schengen countries.

2. How much we pay to the EU. This is dwarfed by how much we gain from it, from taxes taken from EU nationals etc.

3. Having our own laws. Whilst this will be partially true in regards to laws needed to trade with EU countries we still have to accept the laws, like free movement, like Norway have to, in order to trade, whilst having to pay more for the privilege. Also we have no say in those laws as we don't have any representation in the EU, which would be worse for us.

For me despite all the nonsense and scaremongering from both sides, it's a no contest. In.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, I'm one of those "they" you refer to, and particularly because I've research properly.

Referring to your comments above;

1. We do not want an end to immigration, stop putting words into our mouths, we want an end to uncontrolled immigration. Whilst the likelihood of a rollback to our EEA membership would lead to a continued free movement of people, it would bring a complete stop to those EU country members having free use of our services such as NHS etc or Child benefits etc. This would have an effect of cutting immigration because our benefits are one of the huge pullers. Economic migrants don't come here just for the basic minimum wage, that is then heavily subsidized by the tax payer to up to £26K per year. This consists of Tax credits, housing benefit, child allowances etc. Without those benefits, the migrants wouldn't come because the cost of living in the UK would mean a hard life for them.

We would certainly NOT, under any circumstances whatsoever, join the Schengen zone. In fact, you're the only person on the planet who has suggested it as a possibility. Also, under the EEA terms, we would still have our free movement though-out Europe.

2. Again, you're totally wrong. The Nett contribution of up to £13bn a year is an insignificant amount to the other costs. If you look at the benefits described in answer 1 and then add it to the unemployment benefit paid to the UK citizen who's job has been taken by a low pay migrant, add it all together and the UK treasuries own report of late last year reported it to be far in excess of £50bn per annum. They have now conveniently buried the report.

3. Having our own laws. This is a lot more than partially true, Norway, as the example you like to use, has to comply with around 12% of EU laws, and still has a veto if necessary. But then Norway is another "Remain" camp red herring. The UK is the biggest export market in the world for the combined 27 other countries. If we went for a clean break, which I don't think we will, we would, therefore, be the EU's biggest export market. And that doesn't count the money that holidaymakers spend whilst in those countries like France, Greece, Spain, Portugal, 3 of those rely heavily on tourism, so, sorry but the argument doesn't stack up.

Referring to your last point about scaremongering from both sides. Well, Cameron has come up with the totally discredited £4,600 (by his own MP's) and every other scary bogeyman story, all of them "might", "could", "may" cause an uncertainty. Please tell me you haven't fallen for that lot, I thought you was better than that .
As for the scary stories from the leave camp, well none of it is what "might", "may", "could" happen, it's what actually is happening now.

I'm from NI and I'm voting OUT. I think that a central power making decisions for multiple states is a ridiculous concept. I actually read an article from an economist in the Republic of Ireland saying that they are worried about the exit as the UK will be able to offer better tax breaks for businesses which will bring more Southern businesses to the North .

There has been a lot of scaremongering and issues that have been raised regarding restrictions on freedom of movement. To be fair NI is an exception to this rule as we have the ability to hold UK passports and Irish passports. But regardless of this, if you are a skilled worker or have a good education and experience, you'll have no problems getting visas to work in Europe.

The issue that is worrying Cameron most, I think, is that if Britain opts to leave, then Scotland, Wales and NI may propose a referendum on leaving Britain. Because if Britain thinks its better not to be part of a union, then why should Scotland, Wales and NI settle for one with England.

The best argument I saw regarding the exit was this and it has stayed in my mind since I heard it...

One person said, "knowing what you know about the EU and how it operates e.g. setting taxes, allowing any old person in your country without you having a choice. Knowing all this, if you were currently out of the EU, would you choose to join?"

My answer would be a big NO.

2. Again, you're totally wrong. The Nett contribution of up to £13bn a year is an insignificant amount to the other costs.

--------------
Surely nett is the overall result once all costs have been taken into consideration.

Look it up in a dictionary if you want.

Statistics, don't ya just luv 'em?

For me, the Churchillian view of "Lies, damned lies and statistics" says it all. I've read so many different stats on this post it is making my head spin.

Why do I want out? It's called democracy. I want people who I hopefully voted for, or tried to vote in, to make decision of the day affecting me. I don't want some self-appointed, self-generated, and very expensive, burocract deciding how I should be governed.

I look at many industries in the UK, with one word appended to them all in various forms - decimated.

It's time we got back to being governed by our own. We can vote them out if we want to.

JimmyTheRed

comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
2. Again, you're totally wrong. The Nett contribution of up to £13bn a year is an insignificant amount to the other costs.

--------------
Surely nett is the overall result once all costs have been taken into consideration.

Look it up in a dictionary if you want.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good tip for you, think before you type.
The £13bn is Nett Contributions to EU membership, the much talked about figure.
The other amounts quoted are internal UK costs.
You could always look it up, google is quite good.

Both sides have been campaigning wrongly imo, leave should be focusing more on corruption and incompetence at the heart of Brussels and emphasising how a remain vote will inevitably entail further political integration into the European super state

Would like it is remain would actually look at this issue more rather than just pretending it isn't

comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 4 hours, 7 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think it boils down to three main reasons for out voters.

1. They want an end to immigration. This won't happen in my opinion as we'll have to negotiate a deal with the EU like Norway, allowing free movement, thus possibly signing up to Schengen, which will mean more immigration as Schengen visa holders only need to get it in another EU country which allows them free travel, which the UK aren't part of. Some countries not in the EU have agreements for visa free travel to Schengen countries.

2. How much we pay to the EU. This is dwarfed by how much we gain from it, from taxes taken from EU nationals etc.

3. Having our own laws. Whilst this will be partially true in regards to laws needed to trade with EU countries we still have to accept the laws, like free movement, like Norway have to, in order to trade, whilst having to pay more for the privilege. Also we have no say in those laws as we don't have any representation in the EU, which would be worse for us.

For me despite all the nonsense and scaremongering from both sides, it's a no contest. In.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
TOOR, I'm one of those "they" you refer to, and particularly because I've research properly.

Referring to your comments above;

1. We do not want an end to immigration, stop putting words into our mouths, we want an end to uncontrolled immigration. Whilst the likelihood of a rollback to our EEA membership would lead to a continued free movement of people, it would bring a complete stop to those EU country members having free use of our services such as NHS etc or Child benefits etc. This would have an effect of cutting immigration because our benefits are one of the huge pullers. Economic migrants don't come here just for the basic minimum wage, that is then heavily subsidized by the tax payer to up to £26K per year. This consists of Tax credits, housing benefit, child allowances etc. Without those benefits, the migrants wouldn't come because the cost of living in the UK would mean a hard life for them.

We would certainly NOT, under any circumstances whatsoever, join the Schengen zone. In fact, you're the only person on the planet who has suggested it as a possibility. Also, under the EEA terms, we would still have our free movement though-out Europe.

2. Again, you're totally wrong. The Nett contribution of up to £13bn a year is an insignificant amount to the other costs. If you look at the benefits described in answer 1 and then add it to the unemployment benefit paid to the UK citizen who's job has been taken by a low pay migrant, add it all together and the UK treasuries own report of late last year reported it to be far in excess of £50bn per annum. They have now conveniently buried the report.

3. Having our own laws. This is a lot more than partially true, Norway, as the example you like to use, has to comply with around 12% of EU laws, and still has a veto if necessary. But then Norway is another "Remain" camp red herring. The UK is the biggest export market in the world for the combined 27 other countries. If we went for a clean break, which I don't think we will, we would, therefore, be the EU's biggest export market. And that doesn't count the money that holidaymakers spend whilst in those countries like France, Greece, Spain, Portugal, 3 of those rely heavily on tourism, so, sorry but the argument doesn't stack up.

Referring to your last point about scaremongering from both sides. Well, Cameron has come up with the totally discredited £4,600 (by his own MP's) and every other scary bogeyman story, all of them "might", "could", "may" cause an uncertainty. Please tell me you haven't fallen for that lot, I thought you was better than that.
As for the scary stories from the leave camp, well none of it is what "might", "may", "could" happen, it's what actually is happening now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

2. Again wrong. There's are numerous stats available, I saw you mention Google earlier, you can find them there. What we pay to the EU is dwarfed by what we gain. Not only that but we'll have to pay more, like Norway, if we vote out, in order to benefit from trade. It's counter-productive to vote out for this reason.

You use percentages of laws but a lot of EU laws don't effect us so percentages doesn't work unless somebody wants to go through the thousands of laws with a fine tooth comb, I don't. For example laws on producing olive oil, like that's gonna happen here? Being out of the EU but signed up to an agreement with the EU still means we have to accept many laws but this time, we'll have no say as we'll have no voice at the table.

I agree with you about the scaremongering, it's ridiculous. It's unfair on people who can't think for themselves, of which I've met many who simple go on what they're told. And to think people want us to be under their control, with no input from the EU, no protection against their self-absorbed nature and inevitable changes they wish to make.

So yeah, in for me, although if people want to vote out, they're entitled to that. I just wish people had the facts before voting.

. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

============================


In a nutshell, you're completely wrong on this one.

Sorry to break this to you.

This is a simplistic and inaccurate "summary".

If this is how you really think the UK Border operates, you need to reavaluate your position.

I have no doubt that an out vote wouldn't even stand a chance if the nasty foreigners weren't coming in but for those voting for the right reasons, they believe we'll simply be stronger outside of the EU I can't accept that. We've already seen the pound drop just because of the prospect of leaving, of which it will drop further if we leave and may or may not come back up in future, I believe not.

We're massive for all the size of the U.K. on the global stage but what do we have if not in the EU as one big superpower? We're certainly not going back to the so called glory days of the British Empire, we don't have much, remember that the government already sold most of our wealth, the gold is gone. Natural resources are nearly depleted or disbanded, again the government did that(and we want to give them all the power with no protection?)and the thriving financial companies may move to an EU country with the biggest in London in Citi Group having already moved to Dublin, in order to cut the increased costs due to not being in the EU.

Maybe it will work out, I'm not one hundred percent certain but I'm not prepared to take the massive risk having taken everything into consideration. I'm not going to risk that for my family, especially considering we were on the way back up with the economy increasing year on year since the recession. So yeah, in for me.

Although i'm passionately voting to leave and i think there is a great chance of a leave vote, i dont think the UK will leave.

My hunch is Cameron will fall on his sword and a general election will be called and with more powers returned from the EU we will have another referendum.

Similar to when the ROI rejected the i think Treaty of Lisbon they reran it.

comment by Planète des Singes-"I usually have... (U4158)
posted 4 minutes ago
. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

============================


In a nutshell, you're completely wrong on this one.

Sorry to break this to you.

This is a simplistic and inaccurate "summary".

If this is how you really think the UK Border operates, you need to reavaluate your position.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know perfectly well how the UK border operates, I've used it myself a good few times, whilst going for some sun and beers. Apart from that I self studied EU immigration law as well as UK border law for several months. When my to be wife left here after studying at Queens University on a student visa, we kept in contact and I went out to visit her on many occasions. We then got married. Around six months later we still weren't together. Her visa was rejected, over £1000 was lost. We provided all the evidence they asked for, it wasn't enough. They rejected based on two reasons, not enough evidence on devotion to each other and no evidence of her English language qualification even though she had studied in an English speaking university not only in Belfast but her degree from the International Black Sea university was taught using English, which they said would make her exempt, apparently it didn't. So the appeal went out the window and in anger I decided I would pursue the EU route and firstly of course I found out that bringing a family member here under the EU directive wasn't possible if you're actually from the country. But was I? Under the Good Friday Agreement I'm entitled to both an Irish and a British passport, I simply had to get an Irish passport and prove I'm living and working in another country, I was. Then I turned to case studies, this avenue had been closed through numerous court battles, most notably an English women who claimed Irish nationality through grandparents but the court ruled against her, closing this route for us.

A new application to the UK it was and over another £1000. I was advised to seek legal advice, an immigration solicitor which costs an absolute fortune, I decided I would read up on it myself and did so everyday for months. I realised how the UK border agency try to make it difficult for you to understand what evidence they wanted, it was difficult for me, much more so for somebody who doesn't have English as a first language. Prove how you have the means to survive without public funds, which you're not entitled to anyhow until you gain citizenship, pass an English test, Life in the UK test, which I myself failed having done a mock test online amongst many other things, not to mention that you(the sponsor) had to earn over a certain threshold before tax before you're even considered, amongst other things. I provided a crazy amount of evidence, it must have taken them weeks to get through. Eventually the visa was granted. A few years later we had to pay close to £2000 for citizenship, entitling her to public funds, which she was never gonna use anyhow but entitled her to indefinite leave to remain. She now works at Citi Group in the largest sector in terms of money coming into the UK and of course pays her taxes, having never taken public funds.

So yeah we most certainly do control our own borders and in regards to the EU there are also checks when an EU national arrives. It's not as easy as people think. We're not Norway, it's not so easy to get in. It may become easier if we drop out of the EU considering we have to accept free movement in order to sign up to EU trade deals, which costs us more. It may not, I'm not an expert or Mystic Meg but certainly from what I do know, I'm voting in.

Although I'm open to you explaining to me how I don't understand how the UK border operates and your evidence in doing so.

simple facts:

only months ago. david Cameron was insistent that unless his renegotiations with Europe led to significant reform, he would have no hesitation in recommending the uk leaving the eu.

at that time, his reasoning was that the freedom to choose/create our own laws and reject eu laws. to control our own borders, and negotiate our own trade deals would lead to a stronger Britain than remaining in an unreformed eu.

all the negotiation achieved was a brake on the rate of migration allowed from NEW countries entering joining the eu, a piffling change considering how often a new country joins. and a maximum 4 year restriction on the claiming of benefits by migrants, IF we chose to apply such a restriction.
no major reforms.

now, suddenly, leaving the eu would collapse our economy, destroy all our jobs, prevent us trading with Europe completely. it's all bulls|-|it. and it's all completely contradictory to everything he said 6 months ago.


and no one's even mentioned the possibility of us being forced into the TTIP trade deal yet, which risks reducing all consumer rights, reduces employee protections and rights, leaves ALL public services open to privatisation, regardless of government wishes.
and if the government attempts to do anything like increase employee protections, save public services etc, which impinge on any corporations profits (uk OR overseas corporation) the corporations can sue the government for lost profits.
don't say they can't, Canada entered into the same type of deal with the US and have ALREADY been sued.
corbyn has publicly claimed he would veto this deal, but he can't, it's agreed in Europe under QMV rules, there is no veto.


and don't tell us they can't force anything on us, we have the veto.
the options for the veto have been reduced AT EVERY SINGLE treaty negotiation, from the treaty of rome, the following 4 treaties of accession, the treaty of nice, and the treaty of Lisbon.
we lost the right of veto on 43 different areas on the treaty of Lisbon alone.
if we vote to stay in, our veto WILL be negotiated away.

comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 2 minutes ago
simple facts:

only months ago. david Cameron was insistent that unless his renegotiations with Europe led to significant reform, he would have no hesitation in recommending the uk leaving the eu.

at that time, his reasoning was that the freedom to choose/create our own laws and reject eu laws. to control our own borders, and negotiate our own trade deals would lead to a stronger Britain than remaining in an unreformed eu.

all the negotiation achieved was a brake on the rate of migration allowed from NEW countries entering joining the eu, a piffling change considering how often a new country joins. and a maximum 4 year restriction on the claiming of benefits by migrants, IF we chose to apply such a restriction.
no major reforms.

now, suddenly, leaving the eu would collapse our economy, destroy all our jobs, prevent us trading with Europe completely. it's all bulls|-|it. and it's all completely contradictory to everything he said 6 months ago.


and no one's even mentioned the possibility of us being forced into the TTIP trade deal yet, which risks reducing all consumer rights, reduces employee protections and rights, leaves ALL public services open to privatisation, regardless of government wishes.
and if the government attempts to do anything like increase employee protections, save public services etc, which impinge on any corporations profits (uk OR overseas corporation) the corporations can sue the government for lost profits.
don't say they can't, Canada entered into the same type of deal with the US and have ALREADY been sued.
corbyn has publicly claimed he would veto this deal, but he can't, it's agreed in Europe under QMV rules, there is no veto.


and don't tell us they can't force anything on us, we have the veto.
the options for the veto have been reduced AT EVERY SINGLE treaty negotiation, from the treaty of rome, the following 4 treaties of accession, the treaty of nice, and the treaty of Lisbon.
we lost the right of veto on 43 different areas on the treaty of Lisbon alone.
if we vote to stay in, our veto WILL be negotiated away.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Veto? If we lose everything and we're worse of, then we come out. That's a pretty good veto. However none of this has actually happened. So probably better to stay in, rather than vote out because of the nasty things we can dream up could happen, especially thinking about all the good things which actually do happen. For example our economy being one of the biggest growers in the world for the last few years, the laws we've got from the EU in regards to the workplace and of course the trade deals.

Maybe we should look at modernising the EU and being a major leader in that, rather than leaving and disrupting the growth we've seen? Again I'm no expert but I think that would be more beneficial to us.

Also on TTIP we would still have to be involved as we will still have to be involved in trade with the EU, the Norway route, paying more but accepting laws with no say.

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Planète des Singes-"I usually have... (U4158)
posted 4 minutes ago
. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

============================


In a nutshell, you're completely wrong on this one.

Sorry to break this to you.

This is a simplistic and inaccurate "summary".

If this is how you really think the UK Border operates, you need to reavaluate your position.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know perfectly well how the UK border operates, I've used it myself a good few times, whilst going for some sun and beers. Apart from that I self studied EU immigration law as well as UK border law for several months. When my to be wife left here after studying at Queens University on a student visa, we kept in contact and I went out to visit her on many occasions. We then got married. Around six months later we still weren't together. Her visa was rejected, over £1000 was lost. We provided all the evidence they asked for, it wasn't enough. They rejected based on two reasons, not enough evidence on devotion to each other and no evidence of her English language qualification even though she had studied in an English speaking university not only in Belfast but her degree from the International Black Sea university was taught using English, which they said would make her exempt, apparently it didn't. So the appeal went out the window and in anger I decided I would pursue the EU route and firstly of course I found out that bringing a family member here under the EU directive wasn't possible if you're actually from the country. But was I? Under the Good Friday Agreement I'm entitled to both an Irish and a British passport, I simply had to get an Irish passport and prove I'm living and working in another country, I was. Then I turned to case studies, this avenue had been closed through numerous court battles, most notably an English women who claimed Irish nationality through grandparents but the court ruled against her, closing this route for us.

A new application to the UK it was and over another £1000. I was advised to seek legal advice, an immigration solicitor which costs an absolute fortune, I decided I would read up on it myself and did so everyday for months. I realised how the UK border agency try to make it difficult for you to understand what evidence they wanted, it was difficult for me, much more so for somebody who doesn't have English as a first language. Prove how you have the means to survive without public funds, which you're not entitled to anyhow until you gain citizenship, pass an English test, Life in the UK test, which I myself failed having done a mock test online amongst many other things, not to mention that you(the sponsor) had to earn over a certain threshold before tax before you're even considered, amongst other things. I provided a crazy amount of evidence, it must have taken them weeks to get through. Eventually the visa was granted. A few years later we had to pay close to £2000 for citizenship, entitling her to public funds, which she was never gonna use anyhow but entitled her to indefinite leave to remain. She now works at Citi Group in the largest sector in terms of money coming into the UK and of course pays her taxes, having never taken public funds.

So yeah we most certainly do control our own borders and in regards to the EU there are also checks when an EU national arrives. It's not as easy as people think. We're not Norway, it's not so easy to get in. It may become easier if we drop out of the EU considering we have to accept free movement in order to sign up to EU trade deals, which costs us more. It may not, I'm not an expert or Mystic Meg but certainly from what I do know, I'm voting in.

Although I'm open to you explaining to me how I don't understand how the UK border operates and your evidence in doing so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i work with a guy and he has a similar story was ridiculous getting his wife into n.ireland and she is a doctor!!

A Romanian pick pocket can waltz straight in..........

Channel 4 ran good program a few weeks ago about immigrants getting housing, this Romanian guy came over to London went to a local council and was rightly refused a house as he came here with no job or money.

After a few nights he flew home to Romania and returned with his wife and 5 kids, and although the council said he was irresponsible they housed him in Birmingham costing £750 per months, on top of that you have school fees, benefits, NHS bills etc and funny enough 13 weeks later this "hard" working Romanian still hadn't found a job!! And guess what we are paying for this scrounger.

Imagine if my wife and kids along with myself flew to America, Australia or Canada and said we are here for a free house and all the benefits we can get!! We would not make it through immigration.

Not to mention that the UK is one of the biggest supporters of TTIP and in fact some say many of the laws came from the UK. Therefore even if we came completely out of the EU to be the Big Bad British Empire again trying to negotiate our own next best thing trade deals, we'd likely stick to TTIP with a trade deal with the US and therefore Cameron, who actually claims TTIP was essentially his idea would be free to implement any laws he wished for TTIP without the protection of the EU.

comment by VoteLeaveEU- TakeBackOurCountry (U5547)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Planète des Singes-"I usually have... (U4158)
posted 4 minutes ago
. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

============================


In a nutshell, you're completely wrong on this one.

Sorry to break this to you.

This is a simplistic and inaccurate "summary".

If this is how you really think the UK Border operates, you need to reavaluate your position.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know perfectly well how the UK border operates, I've used it myself a good few times, whilst going for some sun and beers. Apart from that I self studied EU immigration law as well as UK border law for several months. When my to be wife left here after studying at Queens University on a student visa, we kept in contact and I went out to visit her on many occasions. We then got married. Around six months later we still weren't together. Her visa was rejected, over £1000 was lost. We provided all the evidence they asked for, it wasn't enough. They rejected based on two reasons, not enough evidence on devotion to each other and no evidence of her English language qualification even though she had studied in an English speaking university not only in Belfast but her degree from the International Black Sea university was taught using English, which they said would make her exempt, apparently it didn't. So the appeal went out the window and in anger I decided I would pursue the EU route and firstly of course I found out that bringing a family member here under the EU directive wasn't possible if you're actually from the country. But was I? Under the Good Friday Agreement I'm entitled to both an Irish and a British passport, I simply had to get an Irish passport and prove I'm living and working in another country, I was. Then I turned to case studies, this avenue had been closed through numerous court battles, most notably an English women who claimed Irish nationality through grandparents but the court ruled against her, closing this route for us.

A new application to the UK it was and over another £1000. I was advised to seek legal advice, an immigration solicitor which costs an absolute fortune, I decided I would read up on it myself and did so everyday for months. I realised how the UK border agency try to make it difficult for you to understand what evidence they wanted, it was difficult for me, much more so for somebody who doesn't have English as a first language. Prove how you have the means to survive without public funds, which you're not entitled to anyhow until you gain citizenship, pass an English test, Life in the UK test, which I myself failed having done a mock test online amongst many other things, not to mention that you(the sponsor) had to earn over a certain threshold before tax before you're even considered, amongst other things. I provided a crazy amount of evidence, it must have taken them weeks to get through. Eventually the visa was granted. A few years later we had to pay close to £2000 for citizenship, entitling her to public funds, which she was never gonna use anyhow but entitled her to indefinite leave to remain. She now works at Citi Group in the largest sector in terms of money coming into the UK and of course pays her taxes, having never taken public funds.

So yeah we most certainly do control our own borders and in regards to the EU there are also checks when an EU national arrives. It's not as easy as people think. We're not Norway, it's not so easy to get in. It may become easier if we drop out of the EU considering we have to accept free movement in order to sign up to EU trade deals, which costs us more. It may not, I'm not an expert or Mystic Meg but certainly from what I do know, I'm voting in.

Although I'm open to you explaining to me how I don't understand how the UK border operates and your evidence in doing so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i work with a guy and he has a similar story was ridiculous getting his wife into n.ireland and she is a doctor!!

A Romanian pick pocket can waltz straight in..........

Channel 4 ran good program a few weeks ago about immigrants getting housing, this Romanian guy came over to London went to a local council and was rightly refused a house as he came here with no job or money.

After a few nights he flew home to Romania and returned with his wife and 5 kids, and although the council said he was irresponsible they housed him in Birmingham costing £750 per months, on top of that you have school fees, benefits, NHS bills etc and funny enough 13 weeks later this "hard" working Romanian still hadn't found a job!! And guess what we are paying for this scrounger.

Imagine if my wife and kids along with myself flew to America, Australia or Canada and said we are here for a free house and all the benefits we can get!! We would not make it through immigration.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? I thought Romanian nationals had to work and have been working for 12 months before they could claim benefits? I may be wrong but I'm sure I read that on the EU website a while back.

the uk is NOT one of the biggest supporters of the TTIP deal, Cameron maybe, but many politicians, from all parties are opposed to the deal. corbyn himself stated he would veto it, except he can't.
many politicians across Europe are vehemently opposed to it, and publicly proclaiming about the problems it will cause, but are being ignored.

and no, if we left the eu, we would NOT still have to sign up to it, just because the eu has, we'd have a trade deal with the eu, we'd have a trade deal with the us, not a trade deal with the us via the eu.
if a part of the deal risked our public services the way ttip does, very few of our politicians would agree to accept it.

and if we left the eu, Cameron would not be free to implement any laws. he'd be a lame duck prime minister. he'd have very little option but to step down.

people, it would bring a complete stop to those EU country members having free use of our services such as NHS etc or Child benefits etc. This would have an effect of cutting immigration because our benefits are one of the huge pullers. Economic migrants don't come here just for the basic minimum wage, that is then heavily subsidized by the tax payer to up to £26K per year. This consists of Tax credits, housing benefit, child allowances etc. Without those benefits, the migrants wouldn't come because the cost of living in the UK would mean a hard life for them.

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First off all, this isn't entirely true.
On NHS .. our government is meant to claim back eu cost of using the NHS from member states. EU citizens are not meant to use the NHS for free / subsidised by UK taxpayers. Other countries claim the costs back from UK government when UK citizens use their medical facilities.

We're gonna have to learn to pay/pay more for treatment on holidays if we leave EU.

In terms of benefits..
It's untrue to claim that this is a reason EU citizens come to the UK. They pay in a lot more into the system compared to we they claim. In fact we stand to lose a lot more in tax revenue from EU citizens assuming they all leave and return to their home countries.

Also there are now systems in place that prevent EU citizens from claiming any sort of benefits until they work and pay into the system for at least 4 years.

comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 2 minutes ago
the uk is NOT one of the biggest supporters of the TTIP deal, Cameron maybe, but many politicians, from all parties are opposed to the deal. corbyn himself stated he would veto it, except he can't.
many politicians across Europe are vehemently opposed to it, and publicly proclaiming about the problems it will cause, but are being ignored.

and no, if we left the eu, we would NOT still have to sign up to it, just because the eu has, we'd have a trade deal with the eu, we'd have a trade deal with the us, not a trade deal with the us via the eu.
if a part of the deal risked our public services the way ttip does, very few of our politicians would agree to accept it.

and if we left the eu, Cameron would not be free to implement any laws. he'd be a lame duck prime minister. he'd have very little option but to step down.
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comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by VoteLeaveEU- TakeBackOurCountry (U5547)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Planète des Singes-"I usually have... (U4158)
posted 4 minutes ago
. We already have controlled immigration, you have to show your passport coming into the UK don't you? Foreign nationals have to show a visa don't they? An EU national has to show a passport. Leave the EU will have no effect as we'll still have to have free movement with the EU member states. So you're voting out on this basis for no reason.

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In a nutshell, you're completely wrong on this one.

Sorry to break this to you.

This is a simplistic and inaccurate "summary".

If this is how you really think the UK Border operates, you need to reavaluate your position.
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I know perfectly well how the UK border operates, I've used it myself a good few times, whilst going for some sun and beers. Apart from that I self studied EU immigration law as well as UK border law for several months. When my to be wife left here after studying at Queens University on a student visa, we kept in contact and I went out to visit her on many occasions. We then got married. Around six months later we still weren't together. Her visa was rejected, over £1000 was lost. We provided all the evidence they asked for, it wasn't enough. They rejected based on two reasons, not enough evidence on devotion to each other and no evidence of her English language qualification even though she had studied in an English speaking university not only in Belfast but her degree from the International Black Sea university was taught using English, which they said would make her exempt, apparently it didn't. So the appeal went out the window and in anger I decided I would pursue the EU route and firstly of course I found out that bringing a family member here under the EU directive wasn't possible if you're actually from the country. But was I? Under the Good Friday Agreement I'm entitled to both an Irish and a British passport, I simply had to get an Irish passport and prove I'm living and working in another country, I was. Then I turned to case studies, this avenue had been closed through numerous court battles, most notably an English women who claimed Irish nationality through grandparents but the court ruled against her, closing this route for us.

A new application to the UK it was and over another £1000. I was advised to seek legal advice, an immigration solicitor which costs an absolute fortune, I decided I would read up on it myself and did so everyday for months. I realised how the UK border agency try to make it difficult for you to understand what evidence they wanted, it was difficult for me, much more so for somebody who doesn't have English as a first language. Prove how you have the means to survive without public funds, which you're not entitled to anyhow until you gain citizenship, pass an English test, Life in the UK test, which I myself failed having done a mock test online amongst many other things, not to mention that you(the sponsor) had to earn over a certain threshold before tax before you're even considered, amongst other things. I provided a crazy amount of evidence, it must have taken them weeks to get through. Eventually the visa was granted. A few years later we had to pay close to £2000 for citizenship, entitling her to public funds, which she was never gonna use anyhow but entitled her to indefinite leave to remain. She now works at Citi Group in the largest sector in terms of money coming into the UK and of course pays her taxes, having never taken public funds.

So yeah we most certainly do control our own borders and in regards to the EU there are also checks when an EU national arrives. It's not as easy as people think. We're not Norway, it's not so easy to get in. It may become easier if we drop out of the EU considering we have to accept free movement in order to sign up to EU trade deals, which costs us more. It may not, I'm not an expert or Mystic Meg but certainly from what I do know, I'm voting in.

Although I'm open to you explaining to me how I don't understand how the UK border operates and your evidence in doing so.
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i work with a guy and he has a similar story was ridiculous getting his wife into n.ireland and she is a doctor!!

A Romanian pick pocket can waltz straight in..........

Channel 4 ran good program a few weeks ago about immigrants getting housing, this Romanian guy came over to London went to a local council and was rightly refused a house as he came here with no job or money.

After a few nights he flew home to Romania and returned with his wife and 5 kids, and although the council said he was irresponsible they housed him in Birmingham costing £750 per months, on top of that you have school fees, benefits, NHS bills etc and funny enough 13 weeks later this "hard" working Romanian still hadn't found a job!! And guess what we are paying for this scrounger.

Imagine if my wife and kids along with myself flew to America, Australia or Canada and said we are here for a free house and all the benefits we can get!! We would not make it through immigration.


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Really? I thought Romanian nationals had to work and have been working for 12 months before they could claim benefits? I may be wrong but I'm sure I read that on the EU website a while back.
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The girl dealing with their case was disgusted and tore strips of them, they brought an interpreter and forms to transfer their kids from school in Romania to the UK with no-where in the UK to live, work that one out......

Also there are now systems in place that prevent EU citizens from claiming any sort of benefits until they work and pay into the system for at least 4 years.


not strictly true. member countries have the right to restrict migrants from claiming benefits for the first 4 years of their stay. after that they can claim all the benefits that a native of that country is entitled to.
it's completely unconnected from whether or not they have paid into the system. someone working here illegally on the black market, having never paid a penny in taxes, would legally be able to claim benefits.

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 2 minutes ago
the uk is NOT one of the biggest supporters of the TTIP deal, Cameron maybe, but many politicians, from all parties are opposed to the deal. corbyn himself stated he would veto it, except he can't.
many politicians across Europe are vehemently opposed to it, and publicly proclaiming about the problems it will cause, but are being ignored.

and no, if we left the eu, we would NOT still have to sign up to it, just because the eu has, we'd have a trade deal with the eu, we'd have a trade deal with the us, not a trade deal with the us via the eu.
if a part of the deal risked our public services the way ttip does, very few of our politicians would agree to accept it.

and if we left the eu, Cameron would not be free to implement any laws. he'd be a lame duck prime minister. he'd have very little option but to step down.
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Of course many oppose it, we're talking about politicians here who are trying to get their party into power who would say something is white if the current party in power said it was black. This all changes when they get in and push their own agenda.

And Cameron would step down? Not a chance. Like all politicians they'd twist it to say it's what they wanted all along. He'd claim he was the one that made the referendum when others before him hadn't, he'd given the choice to the people. He'd then live or die by the implications of that, if it gets better, he'll claim glory, if it gets worse he'll be ousted or quit.