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comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 18 seconds ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 30 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 25 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 minutes ago
Counting that's different French and Dutch people are largely white and Christian so taking their land would be wrong.

Look for a close to 3000 year old claim on some land owned by some Muslims instead and give them that land, if they fight back then they deserve all the punishment they get...

I really don't get it either, I think you have to start with the position that Israel is in the right and people who oppose them are in the wrong.
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The area has had many peoples living there.
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So has London...

Think you might get some fighting if you had a foreign people try to kick the locals out and take it for themselves regardless.
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Using the same logic the Italians can rock up and lay claim to London. After all it was the Romans who originally established London as we know it.
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No Romans don't come from London. Really all these hypotheticals just muddy the issue. Easier if you just stick to facts.
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Nobody comes from London, humanity originated elsewhere, Jewish people have resided in Israel previously as have Romans in London previously.
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So where do you think Jewish people should live?
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You don't just give people a country just because.

You don't then blame the people whose land you are giving away for fighting back.

If your countries land was just given away to a foreign people for nothing you'd done you'd definately have a problem with it.

America has caused massive destruction because of 3,000+ deaths and a few buildings.

Imagine what they would want to do if they had suffered like the Palestinians have?

Why weren't gypsies given California or any of the other groups that were targeted by Adolf, having bad stuff happen to you doesn't give you the right to do it to others, there was nothing that said they had to be given Palestinian land and that the natives had to simply step aside and let their land get stolen.
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The partition plan was approved by the UN. And subsequently most nations recognised the state of Israel.
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America bribing a bunch of countries and the Soviets acting in the interests of potentially securing a ally doesn't make it right.

If the League of Nations had approved of the holocaust would that make it any less wrong?

I wouldn't think so but your logic would suggest so...
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'If the League of Nations had approved of the holocaust'

Seriously that is just ridiculous.
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So international bodies approving of bad things doesn't make them okay?

Funny how your biases seem to massively change your views, if it involves Israel different rules apply everytime.
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I am sticking with the UN you are talking about them approving the holocaust for some bizarre reason.
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It's pretty clear Cal does an international body approving of something make it somehow right ?

You seem to think it justifies Israel so it would justify other bad things as well surely?

Or is this another case of you only apply this logic when it benefits Israel?
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What other UN actions have you disproved of?
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Why does that matter?

It's a simple question you seem to be avoiding.

Does an international body approving of something make it morally right?

Most would say no, you suggested it did with Israel though.

So either you have a crazy belief or once again you are making a special exemption for Israel, which is it?
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I don't understand what you are arguing here. I'm saying in international law Israel was legitimised.
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Okay not sure anyone ever questioned that.

You do agree though that an international body approving of something doesn't make it morally right?

So say for example you couldn't invade a country kick the locals out and blame them for fighting back jus because an international body approved of it?

comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 13 seconds ago
This is just getting ridicolous now dancing around the subject twisting your logic in a hundred different ways to try and justify it.

There is no real justification for just invading someone's land kicking the natives out and moving a foreign people in.

If the UN tried to do it with Britain or America people would be outraged and fighting back, wouldn't matter one jot if the UN approved of it, if the people used to live there thousands of years ago or if the people needed somewhere to go.

There is no reason Israel is an exception to this.
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Look Israel exists and is recognised by the UN. That is the facts.
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That doesn't make it's foundation morally correct or the people fighting back any less justified in doing so.

It's also a fact the holocaust happened that doesn't make it any less disgusting and wrong.

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Cal

"There was a Arab Higher Committee but they refused to work with the UN"

No they didn't. They rejected the vote for the Partition Plan and had previously made their demands clear;

1) A complete cessation of the Jewish migration to Palestine.
2) A total halt to the sale of land to Jews
3) Cancelation of the British Mandate in Palestine and the Balfur Declaration.
4) Recognition of the right of Arabs to their land and recognition of the independence of Palestine as a sovereign state, like all other Arab states, with a promise to provide minority rights to the Jews according to the rules of Democracy.

Wouldn't say the above was unreasonable or unjustified as it was their land.

Tbh you just danced around the subject and refused to actually answer many direct questions because you couldn't justify why it was okay for Israel to do what it did.

Despite this you seem to maintain this twisted view that the Palestinians are somehow to blame for fighting back against this invasion in the first place.

The bias is clear.

Why do Jews need their own state ?

tbf fair lads, this is about 4 against 1.

slow it down a bit

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comment by JSpurs (U1059)
posted 6 minutes ago
Why do Jews need their own state ?
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I think this and why did the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken to make way for it is the crux of the matter. Something nobody can really give a justified answer too..

Cal

Why should they have agreed to work with The UN?

They were being forced from their land against their will. They made their feelings clear to The UN that what they proposed was unacceptable, and rightly so. They were basically being told work with us we'll take your land. Don't work with us and we'll take your land.

It wasn't for The UN to decide.

comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JSpurs (U1059)
posted 6 minutes ago
Why do Jews need their own state ?
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I think this and why did the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken to make way for it is the crux of the matter. Something nobody can really give a justified answer too..
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i can understand the argument for them needing a state at the time (tho agree, why at the expense of the palestinians ?).

but not now. i just dont see that it's necessary at all.

comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JSpurs (U1059)
posted 6 minutes ago
Why do Jews need their own state ?
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I think this and why did the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken to make way for it is the crux of the matter. Something nobody can really give a justified answer too..
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Begs the question do you need your own state to practice a secular religion? Jewish people practiced Judiasm all over Europe, and the world, before WW2. I can understand and empathise with Jewish people needing safe haven following the horrific acts of WW2. However forcing people of another religion from their land is unacceptable.

The question of them needing their own state is questionable, haven't got a massive disagreement with people saying yes although I would say no.

Unless you believe international law actually trumps everything else (like right or wrong and justification) then almost nobody will make the argument that the Palestinians deserved to lose their land.

Even the biggest Israeli supporter who may truly believe that Israel deserved the land will struggle to come up with any justification of why the Palestinians deserved to actually lose their land....

comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 5 minutes ago
The question of them needing their own state is questionable, haven't got a massive disagreement with people saying yes although I would say no.

Unless you believe international law actually trumps everything else (like right or wrong and justification) then almost nobody will make the argument that the Palestinians deserved to lose their land.

Even the biggest Israeli supporter who may truly believe that Israel deserved the land will struggle to come up with any justification of why the Palestinians deserved to actually lose their land....
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what are the arguments in favour of Jews needing their own state today ?

Other than it already existing very little really, no more reason than any other large group deserving its own country.

Some could make an argument based on persecution throughout history although that wouldn't sway me too much. Could more see the argument (but still disagree) just after WW2.

comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by JSpurs (U1059)
posted 6 minutes ago
Why do Jews need their own state ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this and why did the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken to make way for it is the crux of the matter. Something nobody can really give a justified answer too..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Begs the question do you need your own state to practice a secular religion? Jewish people practiced Judiasm all over Europe, and the world, before WW2. I can understand and empathise with Jewish people needing safe haven following the horrific acts of WW2. However forcing people of another religion from their land is unacceptable.
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Fair point, man.

After years of persecution jews got the holocaust and this changed everything, imo.

However, that does not mean Palestinians or christians should suffer at the hands of hardline zionist jews.

Thing is, hamas and arab states want to drive Israeli's into the sea, so the IDF go OTT, and the circle of hate and war goes around.

The Op refers to facism and the left, and we have teased out anti- semitism and violent dictatorships, from left and right, stalin and adolf.

I studied the far right at Queens in Belfast and factions of the NF anf Third way backed palestine, and were anti- zionist and anti-Israel.
Elements were neo- natzi and against jews, using codewords, such as international finance, similar to far left groups.
Far right, so called, were pro-Gadaffi and his Green book on local democracy.

Today, left wing and islamist students at uni or in Momentum are hostile to jewish students, calling them Zio and openly hating Israel without objectivity, with regard to threats against Israeli people.

Very complex, with two sides and views to hear.

I am late to the discussion but I will answer a point about Israel being retaliators, not instigators.

Israel attacks when it is itself attacked. Whether the response is disproprtionate is what is in question.





Also, if there was never a state called Palestine, why does it have a right to exist if Israel does not?

If some accept the UN decision that Palestine is a sovereign state unequivocally, why do they then dismiss the same UN confirmation for Israel?

Palestinian national identity only came in to being in the early 20th Century it is claimed, in response to Zionism.

The collapse of the Ottoman empire muddies the water. From a bit of reading there were numerous massacres of Jews within the Empire in the late 19th century, driving them out of the region.

The Jews want their own state because they have been persecuted living anywhere else. The Romans persecuted them, they were banned from England by Edward I and only reinstated by Oliver Cromwell, Tsarist Russia persecuted them and then Na .zi Germany

comment by palmers_spur - you have a woman's hand my lord (U8896)
posted 2 minutes ago
The Jews want their own state because they have been persecuted living anywhere else. The Romans persecuted them, they were banned from England by Edward I and only reinstated by Oliver Cromwell, Tsarist Russia persecuted them and then Na .zi Germany

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Where are Jews persecuted currently ?

After the pogroms and holocaust who could honestly blame the Jewish people's fleeing en-masse to the one place they could call home? To creating a homeland where they were in control and free of victimisation?
The behaviour of the Israeli state in its expansionism and collective punishments since is definitely not above criticism and sanction.

I also think Jerusalem should be declared a city state, like the Vatican, under the auspices and protection of Isreal. The 3 Abrahamic religions claim it and one nation should not have ownership of it.

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