comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
I should have added a smiley, I knew what you were doing.

Hamas deserve every bit of criticism that comes their way for their slaughter of innocents just as much as the IDF get theirs. I was just reacting to the minimising of civilian casualties bit, they've killed thousands in 2-3 weeks.
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Sure but my point is two fold really and without absolving them of responsibility (as I’ve already said, I would do a tactical strike team approach rather than missiles):

1. I don’t think they have gone into homes specifically targeting civilians and murdering them point blank whilst unarmed like we saw on October 7
2. They could have done a lot worse (Dresden style)
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Re: the specific targeting of civilians.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

And that's the West Bank, where Hamas don't hold sway. I don't buy the propaganda that Israel 'does it's best. Where there are no consequences soldiers behave with impunity.
In regard to your Dresden analogy, the IDFs capabilities, you're reinforcing my point that they're (Hamas/IDF) incomparable.
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Hamas isn’t the only terrorist group.

I don’t think I am re: Dresden. If numbers are the deciding factor (which I don’t agree with) then 25,000 people died in a matter of days at Dresden.
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If we look at the narrative about 7 Oct being worse for Israel than 9/11 for America as more % of population were killed, shouldn’t we do the same comparing Dresden bombing as a % of the population of Germany versus Gaza as % of population of Palestinian Territories?
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We can, it would only serve to embolden my point as Dresden was done in two days; hence the nature of condensed caret bombing which isn’t what is happening in Gaza.

On the one hand you’re all saying that Israel has to carefully limit how many civilians it kills to maintain US support and the other you’re saying they’re carpet bombing indiscriminately on the same level as we did Dresden. Which is it? It cannot be both.
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I’m not sure that’s an accurate representation of what I have said tbf. Maybe “you’re all” doesn’t include me. Note that I prefaced my comment re Dresden was “if we look at the narrative”. Were there to be carpet bombing as I think you are describing, support for Israel would diminish.

And you’ll note I suggested that Israel is “treading a fine line” in terms of US support. Which I absolutely stand behind, and think that is the key thing stopping them go further. However, for me, I suspect for you, for many many many people all around the world of all faiths and none, what Israel is doing is unconscionable and unacceptable. I bring this back to my original comment today, if someone holds up an innocent child in front of them to hide behind, it takes a certain kind of person/army/nation to disregard the life of that child and murder them anyway. That is what we have had,, on an unimaginable scale, every day for the last 3 weeks.

comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
I should have added a smiley, I knew what you were doing.

Hamas deserve every bit of criticism that comes their way for their slaughter of innocents just as much as the IDF get theirs. I was just reacting to the minimising of civilian casualties bit, they've killed thousands in 2-3 weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure but my point is two fold really and without absolving them of responsibility (as I’ve already said, I would do a tactical strike team approach rather than missiles):

1. I don’t think they have gone into homes specifically targeting civilians and murdering them point blank whilst unarmed like we saw on October 7
2. They could have done a lot worse (Dresden style)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: the specific targeting of civilians.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

And that's the West Bank, where Hamas don't hold sway. I don't buy the propaganda that Israel 'does it's best. Where there are no consequences soldiers behave with impunity.
In regard to your Dresden analogy, the IDFs capabilities, you're reinforcing my point that they're (Hamas/IDF) incomparable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamas isn’t the only terrorist group.

I don’t think I am re: Dresden. If numbers are the deciding factor (which I don’t agree with) then 25,000 people died in a matter of days at Dresden.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we look at the narrative about 7 Oct being worse for Israel than 9/11 for America as more % of population were killed, shouldn’t we do the same comparing Dresden bombing as a % of the population of Germany versus Gaza as % of population of Palestinian Territories?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We can, it would only serve to embolden my point as Dresden was done in two days; hence the nature of condensed caret bombing which isn’t what is happening in Gaza.

On the one hand you’re all saying that Israel has to carefully limit how many civilians it kills to maintain US support and the other you’re saying they’re carpet bombing indiscriminately on the same level as we did Dresden. Which is it? It cannot be both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure that’s an accurate representation of what I have said tbf. Maybe “you’re all” doesn’t include me. Note that I prefaced my comment re Dresden was “if we look at the narrative”. Were there to be carpet bombing as I think you are describing, support for Israel would diminish.

And you’ll note I suggested that Israel is “treading a fine line” in terms of US support. Which I absolutely stand behind, and think that is the key thing stopping them go further. However, for me, I suspect for you, for many many many people all around the world of all faiths and none, what Israel is doing is unconscionable and unacceptable. I bring this back to my original comment today, if someone holds up an innocent child in front of them to hide behind, it takes a certain kind of person/army/nation to disregard the life of that child and murder them anyway. That is what we have had,, on an unimaginable scale, every day for the last 3 weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes the “you’re all” was generic to the thread not you specifically.

I think, as Ginge said weeks ago and again recently, we don’t really know what we would do. That also goes for what the Hamas terrorists did. It’s all too easy for us to say it’s wrong, it’s wrong but it’s not our friends and families being killed out there.

With regards to the US, it really wouldn’t surprise me if the ‘treading a fine line’ is completely deliberate but not for the reason you state but perhaps to keep the conflict going and keep the machine of war rolling. They’ve been doing it for decades, they’ve even killed a president to continue doing it.

Alas, we will never know 100%.

What I just wanted to put across, as the vast majority on here will never, is that the Israelis are not as evil as you would think.

I would add, again very few here will agree with me, that there is a difference as far as I’m concerned between what Israel is doing and deliberately targeting civilians and murdering them execution style in their living rooms. Both acts are heinous, disgusting and evil but I know which I think is worse. We will never have agreement on this as the reply will always be numbers, which then takes us back to Dresden.


Final point - as interesting as it is on the rare occasion when we have civilised discussion about this, we’re never going to solve it 🤣. It’s a deeply entrenched and extremely complicated conflict going back years, decades, centuries or millennia depending on what your particular argument may be.

The terror state targeting a school with white phosphorus

https://youtu.be/NNDikWhs50U?si=Af-KNw8fmJRUIZ0S

Lovely people

https://youtu.be/P_Ivo9HNUGs?si=c_aQNuNYaTxWR-u8

comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 45 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
I should have added a smiley, I knew what you were doing.

Hamas deserve every bit of criticism that comes their way for their slaughter of innocents just as much as the IDF get theirs. I was just reacting to the minimising of civilian casualties bit, they've killed thousands in 2-3 weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure but my point is two fold really and without absolving them of responsibility (as I’ve already said, I would do a tactical strike team approach rather than missiles):

1. I don’t think they have gone into homes specifically targeting civilians and murdering them point blank whilst unarmed like we saw on October 7
2. They could have done a lot worse (Dresden style)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: the specific targeting of civilians.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

And that's the West Bank, where Hamas don't hold sway. I don't buy the propaganda that Israel 'does it's best. Where there are no consequences soldiers behave with impunity.
In regard to your Dresden analogy, the IDFs capabilities, you're reinforcing my point that they're (Hamas/IDF) incomparable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamas isn’t the only terrorist group.

I don’t think I am re: Dresden. If numbers are the deciding factor (which I don’t agree with) then 25,000 people died in a matter of days at Dresden.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we look at the narrative about 7 Oct being worse for Israel than 9/11 for America as more % of population were killed, shouldn’t we do the same comparing Dresden bombing as a % of the population of Germany versus Gaza as % of population of Palestinian Territories?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And world war 2 killed over 6m Jews and an estimated 75m people. So the question is, was Dresden overkill like what were seeing now?

The fact that proponents of Israel bring up Dresden is utterly ridiculous because it implies that the Hamas attack the other day is comparable to WW2.

Northern Ireland was deemed unsolvable but we more or less did it

Imo it starts with diverting investment in the IDF to welfare and infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 42 minutes ago
Northern Ireland was deemed unsolvable but we more or less did it

Imo it starts with diverting investment in the IDF to welfare and infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamas takes loads of it - money, concrete etc.

I don’t think things will change until the right wing coalition of Israel is voted out and Hamas disappears. Israel’s government will need to change first to bring a reasonable approach to negotiations to allow for Hamas to go.

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 54 minutes ago
Northern Ireland was deemed unsolvable but we more or less did it

Imo it starts with diverting investment in the IDF to welfare and infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it fair to say that what changed over NI was attitude? People let go of their hatred and embraced forgiveness and reconciliation. Trouble is the Israelis are a million miles from that position under their psychopathic leadership. Why reconcile when you can just bomb thousands to death without any fear of sanction and without any compassion or compunction?

The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.

comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.

comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We didn’t get to see how the Olso accords would have progressed due to the assassination of Rabin by right wing Israelis.

comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We didn’t get to see how the Olso accords would have progressed due to the assassination of Rabin by right wing Israelis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I can tell, any offer they've made has been based on:
- less land than they theoretically have now (down from 96% to about 15% or something)
- no armed forces
- patrolled by Israeli military/security
- borders overseen by Israeli military/security
- most Israeli settlements in West Bank remain
- no right to return for the descendants of the 750k which Israel kicked out in 1948

comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We didn’t get to see how the Olso accords would have progressed due to the assassination of Rabin by right wing Israelis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I can tell, any offer they've made has been based on:
- less land than they theoretically have now (down from 96% to about 15% or something)
- no armed forces
- patrolled by Israeli military/security
- borders overseen by Israeli military/security
- most Israeli settlements in West Bank remain
- no right to return for the descendants of the 750k which Israel kicked out in 1948
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything recent I wouldn’t pay much attention to, as I don’t think there have been honest brokers on either side. Going back to 1994 we never got to see what the compromised position would have ended up as.

comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We didn’t get to see how the Olso accords would have progressed due to the assassination of Rabin by right wing Israelis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I can tell, any offer they've made has been based on:
- less land than they theoretically have now (down from 96% to about 15% or something)
- no armed forces
- patrolled by Israeli military/security
- borders overseen by Israeli military/security
- most Israeli settlements in West Bank remain
- no right to return for the descendants of the 750k which Israel kicked out in 1948
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything recent I wouldn’t pay much attention to, as I don’t think there have been honest brokers on either side. Going back to 1994 we never got to see what the compromised position would have ended up as.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What was Palestine's position?
Because I don't think they were expecting anything other than as I've set above (could be wrong though, can't remember since I looked into).

Did Arafat ever voice his version of events from Camp David?

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 8 hours, 15 minutes ago
Afghans return to Taliban rule as Pakistan moves to expel 1.7 million

https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/1719318428610113932?t=BqZaGhrrEE1Od3JB64Ph3Q&s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just imagine if the UK did this? The Muslim kowtowers on here would be outraged, they don't seem to be interested when a Muslim country starts deporting illegals.

comment by clapfreesince2003 (U22207)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 8 hours, 15 minutes ago
Afghans return to Taliban rule as Pakistan moves to expel 1.7 million

https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/1719318428610113932?t=BqZaGhrrEE1Od3JB64Ph3Q&s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just imagine if the UK did this? The Muslim kowtowers on here would be outraged, they don't seem to be interested when a Muslim country starts deporting illegals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be totally interested if illegal settlers were expelled from the Occupied West Bank.

comment by clapfreesince2003 (U22207)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 8 hours, 15 minutes ago
Afghans return to Taliban rule as Pakistan moves to expel 1.7 million

https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/1719318428610113932?t=BqZaGhrrEE1Od3JB64Ph3Q&s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just imagine if the UK did this? The Muslim kowtowers on here would be outraged, they don't seem to be interested when a Muslim country starts deporting illegals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a difference between:

1. kicking out refugees
2. moving en masse to another region without the consent of the people who've lived in that region for 1000 years, then declaring it as your new country and kicking all the existing people out on their ears apart from the ones you kill in cold blood.

TBF he's saying if we did it in this country not if Israel did it

However I don't think the UK has ever taken in nearly 2m refugees

Closest European country to do so was Germany during the Syrian civil war

*Muslim kowtowers"

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 5 minutes ago
TBF he's saying if we did it in this country not if Israel did it
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, fair point.

comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 6 minutes ago
*Muslim kowtowers"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What an absolute twonk.

comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Bill Nick (U23088)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
The question is whether there are people on both sides will to negotiate. You have Mahmoud Abbas and the PA who are on the Palestinian side. A change in Israeli government could mean they also have positive agents of change, and we can just hope that the right wingers don’t kill whoever that may be as they did last time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any Israeli 'attempt to negotiate' has been an absolute pi55take. Incredible the negotiations ever lasted as long as they did or even got started based on what the Israelis were offering.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We didn’t get to see how the Olso accords would have progressed due to the assassination of Rabin by right wing Israelis.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From what I can tell, any offer they've made has been based on:
- less land than they theoretically have now (down from 96% to about 15% or something)
- no armed forces
- patrolled by Israeli military/security
- borders overseen by Israeli military/security
- most Israeli settlements in West Bank remain
- no right to return for the descendants of the 750k which Israel kicked out in 1948
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything recent I wouldn’t pay much attention to, as I don’t think there have been honest brokers on either side. Going back to 1994 we never got to see what the compromised position would have ended up as.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What was Palestine's position?
Because I don't think they were expecting anything other than as I've set above (could be wrong though, can't remember since I looked into).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would recommend “the human factor” on Netflix 👍

I never read one reply to Crouch's post, I wonder why it was overlooked.