Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 53 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still need to know which dep't to complain to about my civil rights
RR, but many aren’t intellectually honest and consistent, and it lends itself to similar tribal notions of kicking an enemy or allying with them.
In much the same way that any criticism of Israel has been deemed to be seen as anti-semitic, any criticism of Islam is seen as Islamaphobic, and that very real tension leads to a lot of inconsistent and dishonest discourse.
Dazza, certainly, I'm not claiming that self-proclaimed liberals are intellectually honest and consistent. Just saying that this tension isn't fundamentally damaging for liberal thought itself.
Similarly, I guess the paradox for bigots can be resolved by intellectual honesty and consistency, if the bigot admits they hate both gay and Muslim people. However, that honesty exposes the moral emptiness of a system of thought based on tribal hatred!
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. Tricky.
The biggest "problem" I see with Islam is that it is the word of God. Therefore to be a "good" Muslim you need to follow the book. Difficult in this day and age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be surprised to know that many Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God. Ergo to be a good Christian blah blah blah.
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spit n polish.
How you doin?
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. Tricky.
The biggest "problem" I see with Islam is that it is the word of God. Therefore to be a "good" Muslim you need to follow the book. Difficult in this day and age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be surprised to know that many Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God. Ergo to be a good Christian blah blah blah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you are C of E, man lol.
I prefer an Alan Cart menu.
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post.
The modern liberal conflict/debate between elements of feminism and trans activism highlights the quandary for liberals, or how to view islamism, from a liberal perspective?
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 53 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still need to know which dep't to complain to about my civil rights
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call a dicktator, lad.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 5 hours, 9 minutes ago
Can't? Many governments around the world do it as a matter of policy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
70 odd?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spit n polish.
How you doin?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fookin sheite, mate! 🤣
How's you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright.....got lots of garden and painting jobs on top of civil service boredom work and looking forward to Christmas.Chelsea looking good too.
How is your work and residence situation.?
On the OP
Qatar getting the world cup sums up modern life and fifa and football, sadly.
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post.
The modern liberal conflict/debate between elements of feminism and trans activism highlights the quandary for liberals, or how to view islamism, from a liberal perspective?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t think contemporary Islamism is any kind of a challenge for liberalist analysis. It’s unconscionable.
Show me a liberal defending contemporary Islamism.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You alright mucka? Long time. Hope all is well.
I'm not disagreeing with your point completely, one west is best, however would you not say that people in the west generally cherry pick the cause?
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 1 day, 20 hours ago
I’ll be interested to hear what FIFA think about this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That will depend on how much money is available to support the view or reject it. Not that there is anything corrupt about FIFA, obviously.........
Well, FIFA sanctioned Mexico at the start of this month, banning fans from attending the men’s team’s next two World Cup qualifying home matches and fining the national federation almost $110,000 for spectators’ persistent use of homophobic chants.
As they're setting precedents, I'll be interested to see their statement about Qatar as well, although like Bomdia says, a quiet word in exchange for another brown envelope will probably be enough.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Hadn't read this thread before....
Luckily for us England officially has no gay footballers...so this should not affect us....
I'd still rather we boycotted this farce though
comment by RalFred (U19849)
posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You alright mucka? Long time. Hope all is well.
I'm not disagreeing with your point completely, one west is best, however would you not say that people in the west generally cherry pick the cause?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Defoe mate, so it is.
Sign in if you want to comment
beIN: homosexuality is against human nature
Page 13 of 13
9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 53 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still need to know which dep't to complain to about my civil rights
posted on 1/12/21
RR, but many aren’t intellectually honest and consistent, and it lends itself to similar tribal notions of kicking an enemy or allying with them.
In much the same way that any criticism of Israel has been deemed to be seen as anti-semitic, any criticism of Islam is seen as Islamaphobic, and that very real tension leads to a lot of inconsistent and dishonest discourse.
posted on 1/12/21
Dazza, certainly, I'm not claiming that self-proclaimed liberals are intellectually honest and consistent. Just saying that this tension isn't fundamentally damaging for liberal thought itself.
Similarly, I guess the paradox for bigots can be resolved by intellectual honesty and consistency, if the bigot admits they hate both gay and Muslim people. However, that honesty exposes the moral emptiness of a system of thought based on tribal hatred!
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. Tricky.
The biggest "problem" I see with Islam is that it is the word of God. Therefore to be a "good" Muslim you need to follow the book. Difficult in this day and age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be surprised to know that many Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God. Ergo to be a good Christian blah blah blah.
posted on 1/12/21
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spit n polish.
How you doin?
posted on 1/12/21
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Shinjury list (U1700)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 20 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 6 minutes ago
Been a good read this, and it's great that it didn't descend into Islamophobia or homophobia, thanks everyone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly because any Islamophobic posters on this forum are also homophobic, and this is a kind of wedge issue that leaves them unable to give one enemy a kicking without appearing to ally with enemy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a similar tensions also exists within liberal thinking as well. You can’t defend gay rights and Islam tooth and nail at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's a good observation. This tension doesn't need to be a 'gotcha' for liberals though, if the liberal principles are applied consistently. Liberal thought deals in great depth with the inevitable messiness of having to resolve tensions between different rights that clash with each other. In this instance, I would defend gay rights in terms of the rights of individuals and minorities to live and love as they want to, while also defending Muslims from being collectively demonised and discriminated against on the basis of respect for the individual and understanding that no one should be defined by their race or creed. That doesn't mean defending 'Islam' as a whole. In this context, a liberal should be comfortable criticising aspects of certain iterations of Islam (such as prevailing interpretations in Saudi Arabia) but should also (echoing Rosso's comments) recognise that there are many interpretations of Islam and many, many believers who don't wish to impose prescriptive values on others.
In liberalism there are always tensions and trade-offs but if you try to be intellectually consistent and honest (and generally try to not be a douchebag to specific groups), you're on reasonably safe ground.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. Tricky.
The biggest "problem" I see with Islam is that it is the word of God. Therefore to be a "good" Muslim you need to follow the book. Difficult in this day and age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be surprised to know that many Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God. Ergo to be a good Christian blah blah blah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless you are C of E, man lol.
I prefer an Alan Cart menu.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post.
The modern liberal conflict/debate between elements of feminism and trans activism highlights the quandary for liberals, or how to view islamism, from a liberal perspective?
posted on 1/12/21
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 53 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🍆
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to go in dry. 😶
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still need to know which dep't to complain to about my civil rights
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Call a dicktator, lad.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 5 hours, 9 minutes ago
Can't? Many governments around the world do it as a matter of policy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
70 odd?
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 54 minutes ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 second ago
comment by I grow concrete (U10408)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by FC Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 56 minutes ago
It is uniquely liberal, as the civil rights of homosexuals are different.
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Really...what do they get that straights don't...& how should we redress the balance
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🍆
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well...i'm no expert...but looks like it's going to hurt
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No need to go in dry. 😶
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Spit n polish.
How you doin?
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Fookin sheite, mate! 🤣
How's you?
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Alright.....got lots of garden and painting jobs on top of civil service boredom work and looking forward to Christmas.Chelsea looking good too.
How is your work and residence situation.?
posted on 1/12/21
On the OP
Qatar getting the world cup sums up modern life and fifa and football, sadly.
posted on 1/12/21
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think it can be because of the way it’s being presented. I think the issue liberalism has in this respect is that it has to hold itself to a higher moral, intellectual and consistent standard, because they are central tenets to its thinking.
I think other schools of thought can sit more comfortably with inconsistency in moral and intellectual thought. Whether that’s right or not it does represent a problem for liberal thinking.
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Good post.
The modern liberal conflict/debate between elements of feminism and trans activism highlights the quandary for liberals, or how to view islamism, from a liberal perspective?
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I don’t think contemporary Islamism is any kind of a challenge for liberalist analysis. It’s unconscionable.
Show me a liberal defending contemporary Islamism.
posted on 1/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/21
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
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To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
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I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
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Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
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We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
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You alright mucka? Long time. Hope all is well.
I'm not disagreeing with your point completely, one west is best, however would you not say that people in the west generally cherry pick the cause?
posted on 2/12/21
comment by Jadon The King Sancho (U10026)
posted 1 day, 20 hours ago
I’ll be interested to hear what FIFA think about this.
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That will depend on how much money is available to support the view or reject it. Not that there is anything corrupt about FIFA, obviously.........
posted on 2/12/21
Well, FIFA sanctioned Mexico at the start of this month, banning fans from attending the men’s team’s next two World Cup qualifying home matches and fining the national federation almost $110,000 for spectators’ persistent use of homophobic chants.
As they're setting precedents, I'll be interested to see their statement about Qatar as well, although like Bomdia says, a quiet word in exchange for another brown envelope will probably be enough.
posted on 2/12/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/12/21
Hadn't read this thread before....
Luckily for us England officially has no gay footballers...so this should not affect us....
I'd still rather we boycotted this farce though
posted on 20/12/21
comment by RalFred (U19849)
posted 2 weeks, 5 days ago
comment by thebluebellsarablue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 5 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ronald-Royce (U4302)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Der Post Nearly Mann (U1270)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm trying to untangle your logic here, Jinja. Are you using this primates example to support what Mohamed Aboutrika said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair, what he said might not be acceptable in the west but the country he lives in and a lot of other countries, Muslim or not probably share his views. Even China is against it and that's one of the biggest atheist country in the world. Saying that sometimes you need to be careful what you say to the media as it will be scrutinised to the fullest, especially anything related to LGBT.
In the west, homosexuality and transgenderism etc might be considered as normal and acceptable (and that's only the past 20 years), but in a lot of other countries, they see this as shameful and immoral.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think both your geography and your history might be a little off there.
As pointed out above, at various points through ancient and modern history, societies all over the world have been very accepting of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, including in Islamic states. It isn’t only in the West in the “past 20 years”.
The same can be said of trans history, which documented is 6,500 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is true and I'm not disputing that. I'm not saying this wasn't practiced in the old age and its a new thing. Its even mentioned in religious books like the Bible and Quran humans had been practicing homosexuality, for example the story of Sodom. And its religion that forbade the act because it was seen as immoral and shameful, and since then it become seen as that and not acceptable by majority until recently. There were a lot of things humans did centuries ago that were later forbidden by religion and that's why prophets were sent to guide people (if you believe in this stuff), but that's a debate for another day. Gay people in this country weren't exactly treated that well in the 70s, 80s and 90s here were they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were not that liberal in the uk or ireland, but the west is best, with regard to tolerance, liberal democracy, freedom, diversity, live and let live.
Far from perfect, and much of it could be apathy and indifferece, but we have moved on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You alright mucka? Long time. Hope all is well.
I'm not disagreeing with your point completely, one west is best, however would you not say that people in the west generally cherry pick the cause?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Defoe mate, so it is.
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