comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
Also, penalty differential is probably a better metric if you want to explore how refs react to penalty decisions involving certain clubs.
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id say breaking each incident down on its own merit is a better metric
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s really not-as BMCL says above.
I think you’ll say anything at times to try and obscure a decent point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id defintitly say that breaking each incident down for all the pens given not given and seeing if they are correct is far better and would give a far better and more accurate picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That may be the case, but you acknowledge you don’t know what the word “metric” means? Or at least used it poorly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna argue a word over the point fair enough.
Im having to type this and do work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean you’ve been arguing relentlessly for hours and not blamed work.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
Also, penalty differential is probably a better metric if you want to explore how refs react to penalty decisions involving certain clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id say breaking each incident down on its own merit is a better metric
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s really not-as BMCL says above.
I think you’ll say anything at times to try and obscure a decent point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id defintitly say that breaking each incident down for all the pens given not given and seeing if they are correct is far better and would give a far better and more accurate picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That may be the case, but you acknowledge you don’t know what the word “metric” means? Or at least used it poorly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna argue a word over the point fair enough.
Im having to type this and do work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean you’ve been arguing relentlessly for hours and not blamed work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I meant that as the reason for not picking up/and misusing the term metric part.
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 seconds ago
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, I’d argue given the number of pens a season, using a single season is likely to not be statistically significant to indicate any bias.
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 seconds ago
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, I’d argue given the number of pens a season, using a single season is likely to not be statistically significant to indicate any bias.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah see but you’re excluding bribes. Biscuit tin Celtic you’re gubbed but “fur evry fiver” rangers you’re quids in.
Get as Graham spiers refers to hearts “the club of actuaries and accountants” they’ll even launder it for you 😃
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they get a flat fee for the game but their is other expenses they get paid for also .... do some research ffs its not hard to find.
and like I said if your not willing to understand the opportunities that can arise from taking part in the big games then fair do's.
I have given reasons as to why refs might not be honest if asked to declare the team they support.
You just cant seem to grasp that im putting out examples of what could happen and looking at the subject objectively.
I dont give a toss what they do , i dont think it would change matters much
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 4 minutes ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cos a person can change teams , they can lie , if there is a chance they could benefit in their career from it then id say there is a good chance it would be exploited by some
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
Why are all fans for asking refs to say which team they support and the majority of Rangers fans are not? That in itself says a lot
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 1 minute ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a straightforward strawman argument and indeed misrepresenting what’s being said.
As I’ve mentioned several times, unconscious bias can impact decision making, particularly in high stress situations. Taking steps to reduce the risk of such unconscious biases negatively impacting football games is a good thing. It is not “ implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy… and expect them to trustworthy and honest”.
What restricts their career is making mistakes through unconscious bias impacting their decision making, leading to a poor quality of refereeing output. Reffing a Celtic v Rangers game, making mistakes because you’re a rangers or Celtic fan and unconscious bias has crept in doesn’t lead to you getting bigger appointments. Unless you believe quality plays no part in the decision making one who refs at a high level?
comment by Lexballielegend (U22945)
posted 2 minutes ago
Why are all fans for asking refs to say which team they support and the majority of Rangers fans are not? That in itself says a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I dont give a toss what they do , i dont think it would change matters much"
cos some of us dont care if they do or dont.
I am giving reasons as to why it might be exploited and how do you govern it
‘they get a flat fee for the game but their is other expenses they get paid for also .... do some research ffs its not hard to find.’
What additional expenses does a rangers supporting ref from Lanarkshire taking charge of an OF final that an Elgin City fan taking charge of a similar final incur?!
‘and like I said if your not willing to understand the opportunities that can arise from taking part in the big games then fair do's.’
They’d still be able to referee big games though-as long as their team isn’t in it. A Celtic fan could take charge of a rangers v hearts cup final-is that not a big game?! Refs are judged on how they deal with every game-not just OF games. Edinburgh derbies for example. It’s 1 game that they’re not being allowed to take charge of. The SFA should have a good handle on whether they’re decent or not through the other games they deal with.
You don’t seem able to accept that it’s up to the SFA to nominate them to UEFA and FIFA, and from then it’s how they deal with those games that get them advancement.
Our current system is working so well, that we’ve not seen a Scottish ref at a World Cup for years and had none at the euros last time either. Reffing the OF us sure making a difference.
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-you’re posing scenarios that SHOULDN’T exist if our refs are honourable. If they’re not, then as I said before, it should be fairly easy to prove. Social media, etc.
And that last point-that’s surely the whole point of this? If that’s what it takes, then is that not worthwhile?
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 1 minute ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a straightforward strawman argument and indeed misrepresenting what’s being said.
As I’ve mentioned several times, unconscious bias can impact decision making, particularly in high stress situations. Taking steps to reduce the risk of such unconscious biases negatively impacting football games is a good thing. It is not “ implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy… and expect them to trustworthy and honest”.
What restricts their career is making mistakes through unconscious bias impacting their decision making, leading to a poor quality of refereeing output. Reffing a Celtic v Rangers game, making mistakes because you’re a rangers or Celtic fan and unconscious bias has crept in doesn’t lead to you getting bigger appointments. Unless you believe quality plays no part in the decision making one who refs at a high level?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
thats an assumtion that there is an unconscious bias.
if there is proof of that then fair do's.
there have been plenty of rangers and celtic fans in the past that have played each other and there was never calls of unconscious bias.
that could be the case with refs, again I may be wrong but I wouldnt rule it out until i had proof
Why would an honest unbiased ref exploit it ? Unless they were biased and dishonest in their role in which case they should not be refs
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-you’re posing scenarios that SHOULDN’T exist if our refs are honourable. If they’re not, then as I said before, it should be fairly easy to prove. Social media, etc.
And that last point-that’s surely the whole point of this? If that’s what it takes, then is that not worthwhile?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
please state where I said not worthwhile again you cant shake the idea that I dont really have a side on this.
Im posing possible bumps in the road for it and questioning how it can be regulated legally.
Your all over the place mate, there are countless call of both conscious and unconscious biased hence this debate for a start👍
comment by Lexballielegend (U22945)
posted less than a minute ago
Why would an honest unbiased ref exploit it ? Unless they were biased and dishonest in their role in which case they should not be refs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cos they could be a rangers or celtic fan that wants to take charge of the biggest and most prestigious games available to them and it would be the highlight of their professional career.
Given that the most likely scenario of cup finals will involve ranges or celtic they would also be ruling themselves out of those games.
So they could exploit it not to gove bias to another team but to test themselves in the biggest games we have to offer
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Ivan v the Good Guys
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posted on 30/1/23
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posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
Also, penalty differential is probably a better metric if you want to explore how refs react to penalty decisions involving certain clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id say breaking each incident down on its own merit is a better metric
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s really not-as BMCL says above.
I think you’ll say anything at times to try and obscure a decent point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id defintitly say that breaking each incident down for all the pens given not given and seeing if they are correct is far better and would give a far better and more accurate picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That may be the case, but you acknowledge you don’t know what the word “metric” means? Or at least used it poorly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna argue a word over the point fair enough.
Im having to type this and do work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean you’ve been arguing relentlessly for hours and not blamed work.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
posted on 30/1/23
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
Also, penalty differential is probably a better metric if you want to explore how refs react to penalty decisions involving certain clubs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id say breaking each incident down on its own merit is a better metric
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s really not-as BMCL says above.
I think you’ll say anything at times to try and obscure a decent point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
id defintitly say that breaking each incident down for all the pens given not given and seeing if they are correct is far better and would give a far better and more accurate picture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That may be the case, but you acknowledge you don’t know what the word “metric” means? Or at least used it poorly?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if you wanna argue a word over the point fair enough.
Im having to type this and do work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean you’ve been arguing relentlessly for hours and not blamed work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I meant that as the reason for not picking up/and misusing the term metric part.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 seconds ago
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, I’d argue given the number of pens a season, using a single season is likely to not be statistically significant to indicate any bias.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 seconds ago
The reason reviewing one incident in isolation isn’t a good metric is because it can be brushed off as a mistake, or a one off. The point of using a larger database is to show a trend.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, I’d argue given the number of pens a season, using a single season is likely to not be statistically significant to indicate any bias.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah see but you’re excluding bribes. Biscuit tin Celtic you’re gubbed but “fur evry fiver” rangers you’re quids in.
posted on 30/1/23
Get as Graham spiers refers to hearts “the club of actuaries and accountants” they’ll even launder it for you 😃
posted on 30/1/23
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted about a minute ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
I’ve no idea why a fan who supports Elgin city for example would want to ref an OF final. Surely, he’d want to ref Elgin in a final-but it’s only right that he can’t?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
really ?? you have no idea why a ref wouldnt have an OF game as their top match they would like to ref?
same reason a scottish ref would dream of reffing a orld cup final.
Its the biggest prestige in our game, its a chance for him to stand out and move forward in his career and get even bigger games.
Refs want to be involved in the biggest games possible, they want to earn as much as possible
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s a massive difference between a World Cup final and an OF derby ffs.
I’m sure they’d want to ref any cup final, not just an OF one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
difference in levels but not a difference in reasons to ref them.
you would want to ref either or for the same reasons.
prestige ,money, career advancement and testing yourself at the highest level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They get the same money and are judged the same way no matter who’s in the final.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no the dont they get more money ,,,, you cant get paid for reffing games you dont ref. the prestige and chance to prove yourself also. If you do well in the high profile games consistently you will get more euro games, more chance of international games. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A cup final is a high profile game though, irrespective of who’s in it. The ref gets paid a set fee, irrespective of who’s in it. The teams are irrelevant.
You’re getting yourself pinned down on OF games. They’re not the be all and end all. A Celtic fan taking charge of an Aberdeen v hearts final will get the same money and same credibility by the SFA and still get put forward by them to bigger games IF he does well. Similarly, a ref that takes charge of an OF game gets the same.
The SFA decides who gets put forward. As long as they’re a good ref, the games they take charge of doesn’t matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they dont get paid a set fee, the amount of money they get isnt just a flat fee. if it get paid per shift and do 3 shifts I will earn less than if I do 4 shifts.
If a ref is given more "shifts" he earns more.
if they are given bigger games and do well they get euro and international games that is a huge pay increase (up to £7k a game).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no idea what you’re even debating now. I’m not even sure you know. I think you’ve just gone down a rabbit hole and can’t see how to get out.
They get paid a certain amount per game. If a rangers fan referees an OF final, he’ll get paid the same as the Elgin fan refereeing an Aberdeen v hearts final.
Who’s in the final is irrelevant to the amount paid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they get a flat fee for the game but their is other expenses they get paid for also .... do some research ffs its not hard to find.
and like I said if your not willing to understand the opportunities that can arise from taking part in the big games then fair do's.
I have given reasons as to why refs might not be honest if asked to declare the team they support.
You just cant seem to grasp that im putting out examples of what could happen and looking at the subject objectively.
I dont give a toss what they do , i dont think it would change matters much
posted on 30/1/23
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 4 minutes ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cos a person can change teams , they can lie , if there is a chance they could benefit in their career from it then id say there is a good chance it would be exploited by some
posted on 30/1/23
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
posted on 30/1/23
Why are all fans for asking refs to say which team they support and the majority of Rangers fans are not? That in itself says a lot
posted on 30/1/23
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 1 minute ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a straightforward strawman argument and indeed misrepresenting what’s being said.
As I’ve mentioned several times, unconscious bias can impact decision making, particularly in high stress situations. Taking steps to reduce the risk of such unconscious biases negatively impacting football games is a good thing. It is not “ implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy… and expect them to trustworthy and honest”.
What restricts their career is making mistakes through unconscious bias impacting their decision making, leading to a poor quality of refereeing output. Reffing a Celtic v Rangers game, making mistakes because you’re a rangers or Celtic fan and unconscious bias has crept in doesn’t lead to you getting bigger appointments. Unless you believe quality plays no part in the decision making one who refs at a high level?
posted on 30/1/23
comment by Lexballielegend (U22945)
posted 2 minutes ago
Why are all fans for asking refs to say which team they support and the majority of Rangers fans are not? That in itself says a lot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I dont give a toss what they do , i dont think it would change matters much"
cos some of us dont care if they do or dont.
I am giving reasons as to why it might be exploited and how do you govern it
posted on 30/1/23
‘they get a flat fee for the game but their is other expenses they get paid for also .... do some research ffs its not hard to find.’
What additional expenses does a rangers supporting ref from Lanarkshire taking charge of an OF final that an Elgin City fan taking charge of a similar final incur?!
‘and like I said if your not willing to understand the opportunities that can arise from taking part in the big games then fair do's.’
They’d still be able to referee big games though-as long as their team isn’t in it. A Celtic fan could take charge of a rangers v hearts cup final-is that not a big game?! Refs are judged on how they deal with every game-not just OF games. Edinburgh derbies for example. It’s 1 game that they’re not being allowed to take charge of. The SFA should have a good handle on whether they’re decent or not through the other games they deal with.
You don’t seem able to accept that it’s up to the SFA to nominate them to UEFA and FIFA, and from then it’s how they deal with those games that get them advancement.
Our current system is working so well, that we’ve not seen a Scottish ref at a World Cup for years and had none at the euros last time either. Reffing the OF us sure making a difference.
posted on 30/1/23
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-you’re posing scenarios that SHOULDN’T exist if our refs are honourable. If they’re not, then as I said before, it should be fairly easy to prove. Social media, etc.
And that last point-that’s surely the whole point of this? If that’s what it takes, then is that not worthwhile?
posted on 30/1/23
comment by bmcl1987 - the M stands for meltdown 🤓 (U14177)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 1 minute ago
like I said by asking refs to declare their team you could be massively restricting the opportunities in their career.
I am NOT saying it shouldnt be, I am NOT saying it should be. What im saying is that your implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy.
and expect them to trustworthy and honest?
Again I have not said whether I am for or against it. Im giving reasons for why it could / would be exploited and reasons on why it could have a negative impact.
And why it would be difficult to regulate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a straightforward strawman argument and indeed misrepresenting what’s being said.
As I’ve mentioned several times, unconscious bias can impact decision making, particularly in high stress situations. Taking steps to reduce the risk of such unconscious biases negatively impacting football games is a good thing. It is not “ implementing this system cos you dont trust refs can be completely impartial and trustworthy… and expect them to trustworthy and honest”.
What restricts their career is making mistakes through unconscious bias impacting their decision making, leading to a poor quality of refereeing output. Reffing a Celtic v Rangers game, making mistakes because you’re a rangers or Celtic fan and unconscious bias has crept in doesn’t lead to you getting bigger appointments. Unless you believe quality plays no part in the decision making one who refs at a high level?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
thats an assumtion that there is an unconscious bias.
if there is proof of that then fair do's.
there have been plenty of rangers and celtic fans in the past that have played each other and there was never calls of unconscious bias.
that could be the case with refs, again I may be wrong but I wouldnt rule it out until i had proof
posted on 30/1/23
Why would an honest unbiased ref exploit it ? Unless they were biased and dishonest in their role in which case they should not be refs
posted on 30/1/23
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted less than a minute ago
But these restrictions are already in place in other countries-such as England-and it’s not a problem. Do England not trust their refs then, or is it just transparency and taking away as much as possible accusations of bias?
You’re not being objective-you’re being obtuse. You’re making up scenarios that don’t need to exist. Being objective would have at least brought up one positive.
It isn’t difficult to regulate-it’s being done elsewhere without any comment from anyone. You can make it difficult if you want-but it’s easy to fix.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
one country . i cant see any other country that does it ?
I have no idea how well its regulated, how in depth they check these things or if it gets exploited.
but again its not comparable england dont have two teams that dominate the fanbase of a country like we do.
Im posing scenarios that can exist and giving very valid reasons behind it. you seem to think im giving it as my POV.
Ok a positive is that it could force us into implementing a proper structure for training refs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-you’re posing scenarios that SHOULDN’T exist if our refs are honourable. If they’re not, then as I said before, it should be fairly easy to prove. Social media, etc.
And that last point-that’s surely the whole point of this? If that’s what it takes, then is that not worthwhile?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
please state where I said not worthwhile again you cant shake the idea that I dont really have a side on this.
Im posing possible bumps in the road for it and questioning how it can be regulated legally.
posted on 30/1/23
Your all over the place mate, there are countless call of both conscious and unconscious biased hence this debate for a start👍
posted on 30/1/23
comment by Lexballielegend (U22945)
posted less than a minute ago
Why would an honest unbiased ref exploit it ? Unless they were biased and dishonest in their role in which case they should not be refs
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cos they could be a rangers or celtic fan that wants to take charge of the biggest and most prestigious games available to them and it would be the highlight of their professional career.
Given that the most likely scenario of cup finals will involve ranges or celtic they would also be ruling themselves out of those games.
So they could exploit it not to gove bias to another team but to test themselves in the biggest games we have to offer
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