I think Chelsea may have beaten every team that season - Arsenal didn't - but don't hold me to that, Cuty may have drawn with them in the other game.
Winning is surely harder than drawing? And that's why it's not so ridiculous to say winning more games, scoring more goals, and beating every team in the league while amassing the highest points total, is better than going unbeaten.
I'm on the fence with this one as I can see valid arguments from both sides, however, the arrogance of Arsenal fans that simply disregard Chelsea's achievement, and start insulting people for trying to debate this point, is really infuriating.
The point is for the neutral fan the Arsenal Invincibles have had a greater impression than the Chelsea team that got 95 points.
End of story.
..................
Apparantly it isn't the end of story, as quite a few neutral fans have said Chelsea's 95 points is more impressive.
Even more impressive when you consider they only lost once in the league, won the CC and got to the CL semi finals.
Not as impressive when you consider how much they spent to do it
the arrogance of Arsenal fans that simply disregard Chelsea's achievement
--------------------------------------
We don't devalue it at all. We just realise that the Unbeaten season is a far superior achievement then a highest points tally.
Arsenal 'Invincible season'
P38 W26 D12 L0 F73 A26 GD+47 Points 90
Man Utd this season:
P34 W26 D4 L4 F82 A28 GD+54 Points 82(12 points available)
Man Utd have already won the same amount of games as Arsenal did that season. Man Utd have scored more. Man Utd have better Goal difference.
Not hard to play defensive.
The point about going unbeaten is this - in no game was an opponent able to get the better of you. Not once during that league campaign did a rival team in the league get the better of us. And a draw might be worth less in football now, but it hasn't always been that way...
The three points for a win was to encourage teams to be more attacking. The Arsenal team that season were very attacking, and went unbeaten on the strength of being able to respond every time. The most impressive thing about that season was that Arsenal tried to win every game, they never gave up on any fixture, whereas teams now often rest players against "lesser" teams and try and maximise the games they can win by tactically picking games to win.
Man Utd are masters at this. This season they have been outplayed on a number of occasions, but by making sure they always pick up the easy points they are going to win the league. It isn't the mark of a great team, it's the mark of great management. Man Utd's team this season aren't all that special, their European form and Cup form shows that in a one-off game they are quite beatable. It's only over the course of a season, with Fergie's exceptional strategic planning that they are going to collect this title. Tactically the invincibles were all over the place by comparison. That's why they are rightly considered the best premier league football team, and Ferguson is the best premier league manager.
Ask yourselves who has played the better football. Then it becomes clear which is the greater achievement. Man Utd are flat track bullies, it's just they're so good at that they don't need to be anything else.
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
Man Utd have already won the same amount of games as Arsenal did that season. Man Utd have scored more. Man Utd have better Goal difference.
----------------------------------------
But Man Utd have not gone through the season unbeaten. That's the whole point. All the other factors would only come into play if our Lose tally said "0".
"Arsenal's is definitely the more impressive achievement hands down and I believe those trying to argue otherwise know deep down it is. Either that or they just have no understanding of competitive football."
See, I don't understand this. We are talking about a points tally in a league. From a competitive football point of view, the most impressive record is whoever gets the most points out of the maximum number of points available, regardless of how they were achieved.
What Arsenal did in going unbeaten was fantastic. However, I'm pretty sure that also in that season, they also didn't beat United in either Premier League game and lost to them in the FA Cup.
As I said earlier, in their last 8 games, 5 of them were draws. By this point, they were already well ahead of the chasing pack. I remember watching a couple of those draws where Arsenal were playing more conservatively than they normally would to ensure they got the point rather than take a few more risks and try and get all three.
From a "competitive football" perspective, I cannot see how that is a greater achievement. I'm not trying to devalue it there, I still think what they did was fantastic and it will be very difficult for anyone to do it again. However, the sole aim in a league is to gain the most amount of points.
Now, where it would be absolutely a great achievement for Arsenal is if they could do that in a cup situation, say the Champions League...
Points and goals scored matter.
________________________________
Well actually what matters is getting more points than the opposition, that and that only.
Arsenal did that in their invincible season, Chelsea did that in 05 and you guys will do that this season.
You all get the same reward.
We don't devalue it at all. We just realise that the Unbeaten season is a far superior achievement then a highest points tally.
----
Pretty much proves my point. If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten, and not accept any debate, I would be accused of arrogance. However, I don't believe it is 'far superior' as there are fine margins in football, it's a better achievement as we won three trophies, but by claiming it's far superior would being trying to belittle your achievement, but I won't be doing that.
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Yes, if it means winning the league....which we did!!
You sure did, and we're excellent that season.
Don't think anyone has said otherwise.
Also, ask yourself why will Utd get more points this season? It's because City have pushed them all the way. Arsenal didn't need to win anymore games to secure the title, whereas Utd could well do. Without a strong rival there is no extra impetus to win more games except maybe pride. The Chelsea team that won in 2005 also collected a large number of points because Arsenal and Utd pushed them all the way. The points total is not a great measure, because if you have won the league with four games to spare you are not going to go all out to win the last four are you?
If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten
----------------------------------------------------
Well then we would have a decent debate about it. But this article isn't about the Unbeaten vs Treble debate. It's about unbeaten vs points.
Having said that. A few teams in the past decade have already done the league, CL, domestic cup treble. Same can't be said of unbeaten season.
comment by Serial WUManiser - Disciple of Boy Bastin - Show me the head of Gazidis - Minding the Gap #prayforashley (U1410)
posted 2 minutes ago
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Yes, if it means winning the league....which we did!!
_____________
But it's not more impressive than getting the highest points tally.
Football is about entertainment so I prefer goals and wins than draws
Thats just my preference though.
Also I can't ever see Utd going unbeaten we play attacking football so will always come unstuck occasionally.
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Arsenals closest rival that season was Chelsea, 11 points behind, they had lost 7 games which was the least amount of games lost by any other team.
That shows how dominant Arsenal was that season, and how difficult it was not to lose a game.
United are being pushed to the end this season and aren't guaranteed of the title and they are not in any way dominant .
Also I can't ever see Utd going unbeaten we play attacking football so will always come unstuck occasionally.
--------------------------
LOL!! I think Henry only managed 30 goals that season, how many does Wayne have in your attacking team this season?
The fact is that United don't have the best points tally and they've never gone unbeaten.
So really in the PL era, you're no better than Liverpool...
I joke...
For entertainment reasons I prefer to go for higher points than unbeaten.
Higher points normally will mean more wins, more goals and more enjoyment.
But as I said, take nothing away from Arsenal it will NEVER be done again.
But this is my point, this is a decent debate. Like I said, I'm on the fence and cannot choose between the two, as both are fantastic achievements and people have raised valid points for both sides of the debate.
It's the fact that Arsenal fans are being so blind to even accept there could be a debate is what I don't like.
comment by Serial WUManiser - Disciple of Boy Bastin - Show me the head of Gazidis - Minding the Gap #prayforashley (U1410) posted 1 minute ago
If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten
----------------------------------------------------
Well then we would have a decent debate about it. But this article isn't about the Unbeaten vs Treble debate. It's about unbeaten vs points.
Having said that. A few teams in the past decade have already done the league, CL, domestic cup treble. Same can't be said of unbeaten season.
------------------------------
Arsenal have not won a EC/CL in their history. Neither have Chelsea. I guess it must be quite a task then to win it right? We did it in 99 despite going all the way in the FA cup too AND winning the PL
The trophy cabinet at the end of the season shows who achieved the most
How many trophies did the invincibles win that season?
LOL!! I think Henry only managed 30 goals that season, how many does Wayne have in your attacking team this season?
___________
31 goals in all competitions.
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Unbeaten Or Points Tally
Page 6 of 10
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posted on 19/4/12
I think Chelsea may have beaten every team that season - Arsenal didn't - but don't hold me to that, Cuty may have drawn with them in the other game.
Winning is surely harder than drawing? And that's why it's not so ridiculous to say winning more games, scoring more goals, and beating every team in the league while amassing the highest points total, is better than going unbeaten.
I'm on the fence with this one as I can see valid arguments from both sides, however, the arrogance of Arsenal fans that simply disregard Chelsea's achievement, and start insulting people for trying to debate this point, is really infuriating.
posted on 19/4/12
The point is for the neutral fan the Arsenal Invincibles have had a greater impression than the Chelsea team that got 95 points.
End of story.
..................
Apparantly it isn't the end of story, as quite a few neutral fans have said Chelsea's 95 points is more impressive.
Even more impressive when you consider they only lost once in the league, won the CC and got to the CL semi finals.
posted on 19/4/12
Not as impressive when you consider how much they spent to do it
posted on 19/4/12
the arrogance of Arsenal fans that simply disregard Chelsea's achievement
--------------------------------------
We don't devalue it at all. We just realise that the Unbeaten season is a far superior achievement then a highest points tally.
posted on 19/4/12
Arsenal 'Invincible season'
P38 W26 D12 L0 F73 A26 GD+47 Points 90
Man Utd this season:
P34 W26 D4 L4 F82 A28 GD+54 Points 82(12 points available)
Man Utd have already won the same amount of games as Arsenal did that season. Man Utd have scored more. Man Utd have better Goal difference.
Not hard to play defensive.
posted on 19/4/12
The point about going unbeaten is this - in no game was an opponent able to get the better of you. Not once during that league campaign did a rival team in the league get the better of us. And a draw might be worth less in football now, but it hasn't always been that way...
The three points for a win was to encourage teams to be more attacking. The Arsenal team that season were very attacking, and went unbeaten on the strength of being able to respond every time. The most impressive thing about that season was that Arsenal tried to win every game, they never gave up on any fixture, whereas teams now often rest players against "lesser" teams and try and maximise the games they can win by tactically picking games to win.
Man Utd are masters at this. This season they have been outplayed on a number of occasions, but by making sure they always pick up the easy points they are going to win the league. It isn't the mark of a great team, it's the mark of great management. Man Utd's team this season aren't all that special, their European form and Cup form shows that in a one-off game they are quite beatable. It's only over the course of a season, with Fergie's exceptional strategic planning that they are going to collect this title. Tactically the invincibles were all over the place by comparison. That's why they are rightly considered the best premier league football team, and Ferguson is the best premier league manager.
Ask yourselves who has played the better football. Then it becomes clear which is the greater achievement. Man Utd are flat track bullies, it's just they're so good at that they don't need to be anything else.
posted on 19/4/12
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
posted on 19/4/12
Man Utd have already won the same amount of games as Arsenal did that season. Man Utd have scored more. Man Utd have better Goal difference.
----------------------------------------
But Man Utd have not gone through the season unbeaten. That's the whole point. All the other factors would only come into play if our Lose tally said "0".
posted on 19/4/12
"Arsenal's is definitely the more impressive achievement hands down and I believe those trying to argue otherwise know deep down it is. Either that or they just have no understanding of competitive football."
See, I don't understand this. We are talking about a points tally in a league. From a competitive football point of view, the most impressive record is whoever gets the most points out of the maximum number of points available, regardless of how they were achieved.
What Arsenal did in going unbeaten was fantastic. However, I'm pretty sure that also in that season, they also didn't beat United in either Premier League game and lost to them in the FA Cup.
As I said earlier, in their last 8 games, 5 of them were draws. By this point, they were already well ahead of the chasing pack. I remember watching a couple of those draws where Arsenal were playing more conservatively than they normally would to ensure they got the point rather than take a few more risks and try and get all three.
From a "competitive football" perspective, I cannot see how that is a greater achievement. I'm not trying to devalue it there, I still think what they did was fantastic and it will be very difficult for anyone to do it again. However, the sole aim in a league is to gain the most amount of points.
Now, where it would be absolutely a great achievement for Arsenal is if they could do that in a cup situation, say the Champions League...
posted on 19/4/12
Points and goals scored matter.
________________________________
Well actually what matters is getting more points than the opposition, that and that only.
Arsenal did that in their invincible season, Chelsea did that in 05 and you guys will do that this season.
You all get the same reward.
posted on 19/4/12
We don't devalue it at all. We just realise that the Unbeaten season is a far superior achievement then a highest points tally.
----
Pretty much proves my point. If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten, and not accept any debate, I would be accused of arrogance. However, I don't believe it is 'far superior' as there are fine margins in football, it's a better achievement as we won three trophies, but by claiming it's far superior would being trying to belittle your achievement, but I won't be doing that.
posted on 19/4/12
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Yes, if it means winning the league....which we did!!
posted on 19/4/12
You sure did, and we're excellent that season.
Don't think anyone has said otherwise.
posted on 19/4/12
Also, ask yourself why will Utd get more points this season? It's because City have pushed them all the way. Arsenal didn't need to win anymore games to secure the title, whereas Utd could well do. Without a strong rival there is no extra impetus to win more games except maybe pride. The Chelsea team that won in 2005 also collected a large number of points because Arsenal and Utd pushed them all the way. The points total is not a great measure, because if you have won the league with four games to spare you are not going to go all out to win the last four are you?
posted on 19/4/12
If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten
----------------------------------------------------
Well then we would have a decent debate about it. But this article isn't about the Unbeaten vs Treble debate. It's about unbeaten vs points.
Having said that. A few teams in the past decade have already done the league, CL, domestic cup treble. Same can't be said of unbeaten season.
posted on 19/4/12
comment by Serial WUManiser - Disciple of Boy Bastin - Show me the head of Gazidis - Minding the Gap #prayforashley (U1410)
posted 2 minutes ago
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Yes, if it means winning the league....which we did!!
_____________
But it's not more impressive than getting the highest points tally.
posted on 19/4/12
Football is about entertainment so I prefer goals and wins than draws
Thats just my preference though.
posted on 19/4/12
Also I can't ever see Utd going unbeaten we play attacking football so will always come unstuck occasionally.
posted on 19/4/12
As stats above show, an unbeaten season although brilliant doesn't really matter.
Points and goals scored matter.
--------------------------------------
Arsenals closest rival that season was Chelsea, 11 points behind, they had lost 7 games which was the least amount of games lost by any other team.
That shows how dominant Arsenal was that season, and how difficult it was not to lose a game.
United are being pushed to the end this season and aren't guaranteed of the title and they are not in any way dominant .
posted on 19/4/12
Also I can't ever see Utd going unbeaten we play attacking football so will always come unstuck occasionally.
--------------------------
LOL!! I think Henry only managed 30 goals that season, how many does Wayne have in your attacking team this season?
posted on 19/4/12
The fact is that United don't have the best points tally and they've never gone unbeaten.
So really in the PL era, you're no better than Liverpool...
I joke...
posted on 19/4/12
For entertainment reasons I prefer to go for higher points than unbeaten.
Higher points normally will mean more wins, more goals and more enjoyment.
But as I said, take nothing away from Arsenal it will NEVER be done again.
posted on 19/4/12
But this is my point, this is a decent debate. Like I said, I'm on the fence and cannot choose between the two, as both are fantastic achievements and people have raised valid points for both sides of the debate.
It's the fact that Arsenal fans are being so blind to even accept there could be a debate is what I don't like.
posted on 19/4/12
comment by Serial WUManiser - Disciple of Boy Bastin - Show me the head of Gazidis - Minding the Gap #prayforashley (U1410) posted 1 minute ago
If I were to say winning the treble is a far superior achievement than going unbeaten
----------------------------------------------------
Well then we would have a decent debate about it. But this article isn't about the Unbeaten vs Treble debate. It's about unbeaten vs points.
Having said that. A few teams in the past decade have already done the league, CL, domestic cup treble. Same can't be said of unbeaten season.
------------------------------
Arsenal have not won a EC/CL in their history. Neither have Chelsea. I guess it must be quite a task then to win it right? We did it in 99 despite going all the way in the FA cup too AND winning the PL
The trophy cabinet at the end of the season shows who achieved the most
How many trophies did the invincibles win that season?
posted on 19/4/12
LOL!! I think Henry only managed 30 goals that season, how many does Wayne have in your attacking team this season?
___________
31 goals in all competitions.
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