I was wondering when you guys play football, what is your mentality like?
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Now that i'm older and i play with my mates we try to play on the floor as much as possible but when i was 12-13 playing Sunday league it was more of a direct approach where we would just smash down field to the strikers/wingers. I wish i played more five a side when i was younger because I've played it quite a lot this year and it's definitely improved my technical side.

FatJanMolby

Totally agree.

"By giving them the opportunity to play and develop which we don't do. More home grown players are given a chance to play in Spain and German meaning there is more of a chance of them creating these players."

Sorry. But that is nonsense.

A player should not get a place in a team just because he is English.
He needs to have the the talent.

Unfortunately, English players don't have that. So they don't get the the chance.

And please don't compare England to Spain or Germany.
Those places actually produce players that can play. Players who can switch up and play different ways. Technique in other words.
If you have technique, you have variety to your game. Something which England lacks.

There are several arguments for why we don't seem to be able to develop the players in this country that others do. I think one of the contributory factors is that when clubs sign young players (11 year old +) they are limited to how much football they can play by law.

I think they are only allowed to play something like 60 mins competitive football a week at that sort of level which is a really small amount of time. Second to that is the fact the club will then stop the kid playing in his old team with his mates and it just becomes much more restrictive.

First they should stop these restrictions on how much football someone can play per week for a start, or at least massively increase the time limits. The clubs also need to be a bit more pro-active at the local level. These kids can have to travel for up to an hour to train after school so it becomes much more restrictive. Clubs should be able to maintain a few small academies in their catchment area to make it much easier for both kids and parents. They should also consider having much more intense training sessions, like football camps in the summer for 4 weeks etc. To maintain these facilities (or loan them for the local councils etc.) should cost much less than the £8m or so they spend on getting a foreign import.

I also think the clubs in the top division should be able to have associated clubs in the lower leagues that can't be promoted to develop youth players and give it more competition, much like they do in Germany.

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)



posted 14 minutes ago


redmisty

And how do you create these players?

By giving them the opportunity to play and develop which we don't do.
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1) you are ignoring the point that all of our problems existed long before foreigners entered our league.

2) If they are good enough they will be picked. No foreigner held Rooney back, or Wilshere or Hart or Beckham or Scholes etc.

3) They are not good enough long before they reach adulthood so you can't blame clubs for not picking these players. They pick more foreigners becaus foreigners are better. THAT is the point. Why are foreign countries developing more talent in the first place? By the time they reach an age where they might be ready to play for a PL club it is far too late already so foreigners are clearly not the issue.

Generally everybody has pointed out that alot of the problems stem from grassroots and old school coaches. We know that the FA have made some changes to in grassroots to better the development and they have done this through smaller sided games on smaller pitches and as:

Jonjo Shelvey - The guy so good they named him twice (U15412) mentioned:

Now that i'm older and i play with my mates we try to play on the floor as much as possible but when i was 12-13 playing Sunday league it was more of a direct approach where we would just smash down field to the strikers/wingers. I wish i played more five a side when i was younger because I've played it quite a lot this year and it's definitely improved my technical side.

this should theoretically improve our youth players. We all know its going take time. Can we really see a better England in lets say 20years time or is more time needed and do other areas of the game need to be changed/improved to make this youth policy system a success?

Another massive problem, is the lack of facilities available for kids.
Football pitches to play on.

Any decent astro turf pitch needs you to pay for it. Or even jump over on the weekends.

Dubbed The New Wenger

You do understand talent is something that is nurtured, a player doesn't simply have it ready to play on the big stage. There are loads of cases of players having the ability as a youth but not developing because they simply aren't given the chance to play and develop.

Just look at Welbeck, a player I believe has the potential to be a top top player but only if he is given games as a forward to develop. But how does this happen when we already have RVP ahead of him? It takes a lot of trust as well as belief that a player can be top class if given games.

The mentality in England is all wrong, why bring through a youth player which brings risks as you can never fully know how he will develop when you can spend £15m odd on a foreigner already proven, and the reason he's proven is because he started out in a league that wasn't bloated with foreign players allowing him game time to develop.

They pick more foreigners becaus foreigners are better.

...............

Cheaper. Not better, necessarily.

And there lies another problem.

You can't tell me that we do not have young British players who are not better than Paul Scharner.

The lower clubs in the league are full of foreigners who are utter crap, but cost much less than British player.

"1) you are ignoring the point that all of our problems existed long before foreigners entered our league."

No it didn't, we have throughout the years always produced quality players. Please explain to me why English clubs were so successful during the late 70s and early 80s in Europe? Just compare our forward options now to any other period in England's past and you will see a massive difference is quality.

dubbed is right. in those countries you can see the facilities. i go to germany on business. there are small sized pitches everywhere for kids and proper kids coaching.

its simple english emphasis is on biggest kids who can run furthest.

the others focus on getting kids on the ball and working with it. same as a tennis player or golfer... the more touches you do the better you get.


compare coutinho or mata or even silva to a young player like ibe and sterling... they are all about pace pace pace. run and cross, not the intelligence

'Get rid of it'

Explains alot of it.

Definately with the people who have suggested the bigger and tougher you were as a kid, the more chance you had

Technical small players like Messi would have been put into row Z regularly and the guy doing it would be the one who was lauded

I was a trcky fast winger as a young teen and if I went on a maxy run, i'd have the manager, and other players screaming at me. Today, nothing seems to have changed. It's all about the big guy who can hack someone down in the tackle and clear their lines.

Please explain to me why English clubs were so successful during the late 70s and early 80s in Europe?
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Ok I will. But remind me what they won first........

"You do understand talent is something that is nurtured, a player doesn't simply have it ready to play on the big stage. There are loads of cases of players having the ability as a youth but not developing because they simply aren't given the chance to play and develop."

Yes it is nurtured. But you have to have something in the first place.
Most of these guys don't. And got in because they run very fast, or are physically strong or tall.
I'm referring to most of the English lads.

"Just look at Welbeck, a player I believe has the potential to be a top top player but only if he is given games as a forward to develop. But how does this happen when we already have RVP ahead of him? It takes a lot of trust as well as belief that a player can be top class if given games."

Sorry. If you think Welbeck has the potential to be a top player, then you are really living in dream world.
He is in fact the perfect example of what's wrong with the youth here.
Technically below par, but it's ok because he runs around making a nuisance of himself, even though he's a striker.
You can give Welbeck a million years and he'll never come close to displacing RVP.
It is that simple.

"The mentality in England is all wrong, why bring through a youth player which brings risks as you can never fully know how he will develop when you can spend £15m odd on a foreigner already proven, and the reason he's proven is because he started out in a league that wasn't bloated with foreign players allowing him game time to develop."

That foreigner could've come from Italy, or Spain, Germany or even France, who all have a share of foreigners.
He made it simply because he was good enough.

I agree with manutd1982 about welbecks developement to a certain extent.

His development will be stifled also duw to the fact that the pressures at Utd is very high, he has to perform out of his skin every game just to keep his spot and rightly so. As soon as he has a poor game, he would easily made a scapegoat, first to be dropped and then that whole process of coming back in will start again which will slow his progress. Someone like RVP would be given more chances to recover from poor games as he has shown his class and therefore deserves that time but the longer you keep out the likes of Welback playing then the slower is development and could result in the loss of his ability.

I reckon in those situations, these players like welbeck should be loaned out to a prem time like what Lukaku is doing to develop until they can be entrusted to lead the line.

Mourinho knows that Lukaku is defo a great option for a starter because of his good season.

PS We are referring to the natioal team, yes? Surely you are not referring to club football?

RVP season stats at 21
18 games 23 subs 10 goals 1 assist

Welbeck season stats at 21
32 games 16 subs 15 goals 5 assists

I'm not for one second saying Welbeck will reach RVP's level but the short sightedness of your argument makes you look like a complete idiot. He is technically very good on the ball but is being pushed onto the wings because we already have too many forward options.

"That foreigner could've come from Italy, or Spain, Germany or even France, who all have a share of foreigners.
He made it simply because he was good enough."

Do I have to explain this again? Percentage of foreigners in leagues.

PL - 65%
La Liga - 37%
Bundesliga - 22%

Misty

Prety sure he's on about Liverpool, Forest and Villa

"PS We are referring to the natioal team, yes? Surely you are not referring to club football?"

I'm actually referring to the title of the OP, 'Why are English players limited'. which concerns both club and international football.

Misty

Prety sure he's on about Liverpool, Forest and Villa
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I suddenly wondered that. In that case it's an irrelevant argument as United, Liverpool and Chelsea have all won the CL in the last decade. United won it with 6 English starters in the side. Doesn't change the fact that our national team was still crap, just as it was in the '80s when manutd1982 is saying we produced top players.

I.e. club football has been just as successful with the influx of foreigners but the national side remains pants. Again I would say that is an argument which suggests foreigners are not the problem.

I stand by my comment that we had the same problems at international level long before foreigners "invaded" the PL.

More recently, i.e. in the last 2-3 years, we have had a dearth of CBs and strikers coming through but that is far too recent an issue to blame on foreigners invading the PL after 1992.

I'm actually referring to the title of the OP, 'Why are English players limited'. which concerns both club and international football.
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So which English players in the early 1980s are you saying were not "limited". And why did they fail to make an impact on the international stage?

And surely you are therefore suggesting that football ability is only really developed from the age of 20? After all, few players break into PL sides before that age. Thus, if foreigners are to blame then you must surely be arguing that development up until the age of 20 is more or less irrelevant?

The way we referee games in this country is also a factor.

There are fewer fouls in the Prem than any of the other major leagues.

Go down the pyramid and it would be even worse in terms of what players can get away with.

If we want technical players we have to create an environment in which they can thrive. That means toughening up on over physical play, even if its at the expense of a part of our game that most fans love.

"RVP season stats at 21
18 games 23 subs 10 goals 1 assist

Welbeck season stats at 21
32 games 16 subs 15 goals 5 assists"

How does stat prove anything? This also assuming it's true. Taking this at face value.

Either way, what's your point?

RVP always had the potential and the ability. Welbeck does not.

"I'm not for one second saying Welbeck will reach RVP's level but the short sightedness of your argument makes you look like a complete idiot. He is technically very good on the ball but is being pushed onto the wings because we already have too many forward options."

Yeah. Pop up with the insults cause I don't agree with your biased and clearly deluded post about Welbeck being a victim of this foreign invasion.
The guy's cack plain and simple.

And the fact that you think he's got good technique. Shows how desperate the plight of English football is in at the moment.

"Do I have to explain this again? Percentage of foreigners in leagues.

PL - 65%
La Liga - 37%
Bundesliga - 22%"

Another statistic. Foreign players are better than English one most of the time.
Those foreign players are usually Italian, Spanish, etc. Seeing as these players are not usually short of ability, their nations don't really have to turn elsewhere, as they are stacked with talent.
Not rocket science.

Agree with righteous, some of the attitudes at there when they see a skillful player is to take his legs.

That kind of thing needs to go.

Hoddle and Barnes are 2 perfect examples of extremely gifted English footballers of the likes we simply do not see anymore. Keegan, Brooking, Francis, Wilkins, Robson, Anderson, Shilton, Clemence, all quality that would walk into our current squad. Plus Waddle, Gazza, Beardsley all these are English and clearly not limited and played in the 80s.

From 77-82 England competed in 6 European Cup finals straight fielding 66 home grown British players.

In 2005 Liverpool fielded 2, 2008 we fielded an impressive 6 and last year Chelsea fielded 4.