Dubbed The New Wenger

If the 65% of foreigners in our league were all Italian, German and Spanish then maybe you'd have a point but seeing as the PL has over 70 different nationalities represented your argument doesn't really work.

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)

Do I have to explain this again? Percentage of foreigners in leagues.

PL - 65%
La Liga - 37%
Bundesliga - 22%
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Can you please explain why no top club outside England is interested in our players?

When you use stats in an argument, it's not enough to just post it and say hey, ho, that's the data. Ask yourself, why so many foreigners are sought after.

It's not down to them being cheap but them being able to do a job and them possessing some technical attributes that our players do not.

The stats you posted just further highlight that our standard of football is poor, that's why the foreign imports are needed to make us compete with the best

I was referring to the other leagues not the Premier League in particular.

You're clearly in denial though. It's guys like you who's holding English football back.
You think everything's alright, so looks to make excuses and whatnot.

It's gone to a level where you think Welbeck's technical.

Thankfully, most Englishmen see what's wrong, so this problem might get remedied in the future.

Just curious, what was your point with the RVP at 21 vs Welbeck stat? You trying to tell me Welbeck was the superior player then?

So how come you ignored this point?

"And surely you are therefore suggesting that football ability is only really developed from the age of 20? After all, few players break into PL sides before that age. Thus, if foreigners are to blame then you must surely be arguing that development up until the age of 20 is more or less irrelevant?"

And I don't think many of the players you mentioned are any better than Rooney, Becks, Scholes, Ince, Shearer, Adams, Ferdinand, Neville, Owen, Andy Cole, Ashley Cole, Gazza, Ian Wright, Sheringham, Hargreaves, etc.

I'm not denying we used to have good players but all the above players played in the PL era when foreigners were allegedly stealing places from English players.

Equally consistent is the fact that the national team was pretty pants, and and our play limited, in both eras.

Our squad right now is extremely poor but you cannot say that is because of an issue that dates back to 1992. Why are we not producing talent to compete with young foreign starlets? I do not accept that all clubs are biased towards foreign imports over local lads unless the local lads are somehow inferior. For what possible reason would they prefer to bring in foreigners who don't speak the language, are less loyal, might not settle etc. if, according to you, young English players are just as good?

Thankfully, most Englishmen see what's wrong, so this problem might get remedied in the future.
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Most Englishmen could see what was wrong in the 1980s and nothing has changed so don't hold your breath!

Redmisty
Just being polite mate.

I was born and brought up here, so I actually want England to do well.
But guys who support the caveman football mentality irritate the c'rap out of me.

"Can you please explain why no top club outside England is interested in our players?"

Because there is a stupid premium price put on English players plus the fact the PL generates the most money of all the leagues in the world meaning the English players get handsomely paid. It's nothing new English players not moving abroad, there's always been a stigma attached to it probably largely due to the non adventurous nature of English players. You only need to read Ian Rush's verdict on his unsuccessful time at Juve to see why we don't see more English players playing abroad, "It's like living in a foreign country.".

"You're clearly in denial though. It's guys like you who's holding English football back.
You think everything's alright, so looks to make excuses and whatnot."

What the f-ck are you talking about, where have I said everything is alright in English football, I have always maintained it isn't with one of the key problems being the lack of integration of home grown youth into first teams because of the availability of cheaper foreign alternatives.

Young English are definately NOT jus as good, ther maybe a few exceptions but if a comparison is made and like for like is used then you find the foriegners are way ahead of us in terms of ability.

There are also some SH**E foriegners in the league that you could argue that are hampering some development of players but on the whole, we as a nation are way behind our counterparts.

The problems definately stems from old school coaching and mentality/education of players at that young age.

What annoys me about our situation is that people look for others to blame rather than ourselves.

Playing someone because they are English above another player who is better but is foreign is discrimination.

Instead of blaming others for our ck ups, why don't we learn from them?

"What the f-ck are you talking about, where have I said everything is alright in English football, I have always maintained it isn't with one of the key problems being the lack of integration of home grown youth into first teams because of the availability of cheaper foreign alternatives."

There you go. You just showed it there, you simpleton.

English clubs don't go for foreign players cause they are cheaper. They go for them cause they are better.
Is this idiot serious?

You are indeed in denial.

Yes Sheriff, vidic is awful with the ball at his feet when compared to Evans who brings the ball out very well, as rio has done throughout his career. Carrick is technically very gifted when compared to Anderson and fletcher, that's why they make a good combination.....a passer and tackler! Cleverly is teat and sound technically.....giggs fist touch is just wonderful and by far the best at club and has alway been. Valencia at times technically is woeful, as is herndenez and the worse when off form is Rooney. Van persie is a joy to watch but the point I made is that most if the British players at united that I watch are technically as sound as the forgein lot and in many cases better!

"And I don't think many of the players you mentioned are any better than Rooney, Becks, Scholes, Ince, Shearer, Adams, Ferdinand, Neville, Owen, Andy Cole, Ashley Cole, Gazza, Ian Wright, Sheringham, Hargreaves, etc."

In the past 20 years of English football you are able to name me 3 that are currently playing now, 2 of which are in their 30s, well done. While 6 of the remaining players all began their career in the 80s while Hargeaves grew up playing for Bayern.

I can't be bothered to argue with you 2, is it half term or something?

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 3 minutes ago
"Can you please explain why no top club outside England is interested in our players?"

Because there is a stupid premium price put on English players plus the fact the PL generates the most money of all the leagues in the world meaning the English players get handsomely paid. It's nothing new English players not moving abroad, there's always been a stigma attached to it probably largely due to the non adventurous nature of English players.
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Actually that's not accurate. British players are sold abroad for cheap when they have the courage to go. It's selling them to each other that is expensive.

Again you are not addressing the fundamental problem, why are our players not sought after? When was the last time you saw one of our players linked with a club abroad?

As a matter of fact, when the prem was in it's glory, the national team did very well because our players learnt from the evil foreigners.

Stop deceiving yourself my friend, our players are cack. That is why no one wants them at home or abroad

Carrick is not technically gifted. Wtf? Good player. But all he does is recycle possession. His technique is just solid.

Anderson actually has/had good technique, believe it or not.

Giggs has good technique. Fair enough. Cleverley is very average.

"When was the last time you saw one of our players linked with a club abroad?"

Pretty sure Rooney has been linked with PSG for a while.

"As a matter of fact, when the prem was in it's glory, the national team did very well because our players learnt from the evil foreigners."

Did we? I thought the golden period of the PL was 05-09? Pretty sure we quite poor in Germany and didn't even qualify for the Euros.

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)



posted 58 seconds ago


"And I don't think many of the players you mentioned are any better than Rooney, Becks, Scholes, Ince, Shearer, Adams, Ferdinand, Neville, Owen, Andy Cole, Ashley Cole, Gazza, Ian Wright, Sheringham, Hargreaves, etc."

In the past 20 years of English football you are able to name me 3 that are currently playing now, 2 of which are in their 30s, well done. While 6 of the remaining players all began their career in the 80s while Hargeaves grew up playing for Bayern.

I can't be bothered to argue with you 2, is it half term or something?
_______________________

Is there any need for that? Are you incapable of addressing my points without hurling insults? Is your argument/ego really that weak?

I have already commented on the poor state of our current squad and asked you to explain why the foreigner issue seemd to have no effect on the quality of our players in the 1990s and 2000s. Are you saying it took 20 years and we are only just seeing the impact of foreign players?

Funny that, earlier on you said the problem started in 1992 yet now you claim that all the players I mentioned are irrelevant despite all playing since 1992.

If you have "given up" on this debate then that is because you have been beaten. Be a man and accept that rather than claiming it is because we are too childish for you.

I have not insulted you in the slightest yet you are acting like a spoilt brat whose mummy won't buy him an ice cream.

"well done" you.

Rooney, whoopie do! So one Englishman, we should be so proud.

The sad thing is that the germans play like us and realised their national team wasn't good enough and looked at themselves, fixed their problems and are getting rewarded for it.

Whilst our approach is, blame Johnny Foreigner

This has been a good thread, with a range of contrasting opinions on the matter of youth development put forward, plus one Gooner who thoughtfully informs us that all of United's players are rubbish.

Where have I said all United players are rubbish exactly? Don't turn this into a Man U vs Arsenal debate. Stay on track.

This argument is about winning you complete cretin.

I have stated at the very beginning there are many problems with why English footballers aren't the best, one of them being the lack of opportunities given to home grown youth with stifles development.

This problem has arisen gradually over the past 20 years with the birth of the PL, the influx of money, the Bosman ruling and the removal of the 3 foreigner rule. Yes many of the players you mentioned played during the 90s but their breaks came before the PL when home grown players were given more of a chance.

I have given you umpteen stats to prove my point yet you still feel the need to completely ignore them without any kind of reasoning. This is why I can't be bothered. Maybe I should add a few of these like Wenger.

Wenger? How did he come about in this discussion?

This argument *isn't about winning

it's not about winning? oh for fúck sake I've wasted an afternoon then

comment by Dubbed The New Wenger (U9163) posted 29 minutes ago
Carrick is not technically gifted. Wtf? Good player. But all he does is recycle possession. His technique is just solid.

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depends what you mean by technically gifted

He ain't a dribbler but he is very gifted in the art of possession, reading the game, his touch, seeing a pass, and executing it to perfection, certainly better than any other Englishman currently. His off the ball movement is always intelligent and he is totally disciplined positionally

There is more to being 'technically' gifted than being able to dribble

comment by manutd1982 (U6633)



posted 4 minutes ago


This argument *isn't about winning

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Then don't act like a spoilt brat who has been denied ice cream by his mummy.

And don't insult people for no reason whatsoever.

You're the one who inexplicably threw in the towell and then accused those who disagree with you of being children.

If you are capable of debate then do so, if you are not then behave yourself and feck off gracefully.