Please post the full story, I do not have an autosport subscription.
Pretty please.
The public debut of the rekindled McLaren-Honda Formula 1 partnership last month offered the first glimpses of the Japanese manufacturer's new engine.
From what we've seen at the post-season Abu Dhabi F1 test and the team's filming day at Silverstone prior to that, the Honda power unit appears to be at least partly inspired by developments we saw from the other manufacturers in 2014.
Although the Abu Dhabi test was not a successful one, due to electrical problems preventing the car running anywhere near a full programme, the two outings Honda already has under its belt with this package puts it far ahead of where its rivals were at the same time last year.
Aside from changes to accommodate the Honda engine, the MP4-29H IXI (H for Honda and IXI for the engine specification), externally the car remains identical to the late-season MP4-29 racer.
Honda's power unit
Honda revealed the first image of its power unit before the Japanese GP
But underneath the bodywork the car is very different as the Honda power unit differs in many ways from the outgoing Mercedes package.
In the week of the Japanese Grand Prix Honda produced renders of its engine. Although much of the detail was edited or hidden, we now know that elements of these images were accurate from the limited view we had of the installation on the test car.
It appears that the key difference is the turbo layout. As widely expected, the Honda engine features a turbo split between the front and rear of the engine, as per the 2014 Mercedes motor.
Images of the test car appear to show the airbox ('1' on the main image, below) leads towards the front of the engine and not the rear.
The split turbo concept has benefits in packing by reducing heat transfer from the exhaust-driven turbine side of the turbo to the compressor, shortening the turbo's pipework for less turbo lag, and critically allowing space for a larger compressor.
A rear-mounted turbo is limited in diameter by the fixed gearbox mounts and space to package the MGU-H inside the V of the engine.
Having a larger compressor creates more power, but this can be compromised by the larger turbine being slower to spin up at low revs, which creates turbo lag. Mercedes appears to have countered the lag issue with use of the MGU-H and electronic control of a wastegate and pop-off valve.
In the McLaren test car and Honda's publicity images, we can tell that the turbo's charge air is cooled by an air-to-air cooler ('2' in the main image) mounted in the right sidepod. This is a mirror of McLaren's 2014 Mercedes installation where the cooler was in the left sidepod.
There's no apparent benefit to the cooler being on a particular side, so it's most likely the turbo location and the mounting of ancillaries that defines which side the outlet appears on.
The air-to-air intercooler is a bulkier but lighter solution, compared with a water-to-air cooler. It also lowers the temperature of the air entering the engine, meaning it can create more power.
Unusually for an F1 engine, the plenum that forms the intake above the engine is made from aluminium, rather than carbon fibre. This may be a solution purely for testing in order to allow access to the variable inlet trumpets, which are now allowed in 2015. The pipe exiting the intercooler can be seen running back up to the top of the engine to connect the plenum.
As the intercooler is on the right of the car, the other coolers for engine water/oil and ERS are now in the left sidepod. To ensure these cooled the power unit enough in testing, the team created large slots in the sidepod in order to vent the heat.
McLaren added slots to the sidepods for the tesst
McLaren could opt for Red Bull-style sidepods with its 2015 car © XPB
These openings are not a legal part of the regulations for races, but in testing such solutions are allowed. As with McLaren's 2014 race car the gearbox oil cooler is mounted above the gearbox and fed by a duct from the roll-hoop.
Mounted low down at the sides of the engine are large heat-shielded items ('3' on the main image) - these are likely to be the exhausts feeding the turbo. Unlike the majority of 2014 exhaust installations they are very low - mounted at floor level.
Presumably they tuck in around the back of the engine and lead up to the turbo, which sits in the front section of the gearbox.
The only other team to run such low exhausts in 2014 was Red Bull, which mounted a very long cooler package in the sidepods, with the intercoolers sited directly above the heat-shielded exhaust. This allowed much larger coolers within slimmer sidepods for better aerodynamics. Perhaps McLaren's 2015 MP4-30 will follow Red Bull's long and narrow sidepod philosophy?
Since pre-season testing does not begin until the start of February, McLaren and Honda now have three months to work through the issues found at Silverstone and Yas Marina, and complete the 12 days of pre-season testing, ahead of the first race of the season in Australia on March 15.
Thank you very much. They have emulated Mercedes' general arrangement of the turbo.
Interesting their power unit is so different. With all the info McLaren have been anonymously communicating and data from the control electronics that some did not know existed
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
this stuff is above my head
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, now, my ol bruvver WTCCBSBMOTOGPSBKMOTOGPF1GP2GP3
What is this gobbleygook you have copied from google?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, now, my ol bruvver WTCCBSBMOTOGPSBKMOTOGPF1GP2GP3
What is this gobbleygook you have copied from google?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ah the magic of google
Wrong again a\s usual.
You will never find that information on google or anywhere else.
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
========================================
Dress it up however you want mate, I've only ever debated one thing and I made that clear from the start. You chose to take it up with me, I didn't make you. As it turned out you had no idea about the subject. You get anoyed when people debate about Senna without having seen him live. How do you think it looks when you debated the PU with me without even know that the Control Electronics (CE) was a thing?
""I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
All I ever debated
I seriously doubt martial saw Senna race at all
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 11 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
========================================
Dress it up however you want mate, I've only ever debated one thing and I made that clear from the start. You chose to take it up with me, I didn't make you. As it turned out you had no idea about the subject. You get anoyed when people debate about Senna without having seen him live. How do you think it looks when you debated the PU with me without even know that the Control Electronics (CE) was a thing?
""I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
All I ever debated
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you still think mclaren dont have any knowledge of how the merc PU works -
-------------- even though it has been attached to there cars and there cars systems for over a year and that data is spread all over there many rows of super sophisticated state of the art computers -
you could"nt make this stuff up
"you could"nt make this stuff up "
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
=======================================
Where have I ever said McLaren have no knowledge of the Mercedes PU?
We're talking specifics here, what makes the Mercedes PU stand out from the rest, the kind of things Mercedes would do their all to protect.
If we're talking daft things I'm afraid you're leading the way by a country mile. Debating PU's with me for days, taking on my Control Electronics arguments over and over only to then tell me,
"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"
To coin a phrase, you could"nt make this stuff up
Know what all the parts of the PU do yet? realised that Mercedes choose what McLaren get to see?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
=======================================
Where have I ever said McLaren have no knowledge of the Mercedes PU?
We're talking specifics here, what makes the Mercedes PU stand out from the rest, the kind of things Mercedes would do their all to protect.
If we're talking daft things I'm afraid you're leading the way by a country mile. Debating PU's with me for days, taking on my Control Electronics arguments over and over only to then tell me,
"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"
To coin a phrase, you could"nt make this stuff up
Know what all the parts of the PU do yet? realised that Mercedes choose what McLaren get to see?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren have no knowledge of the engine that powered there car during 2014 -
it gets funnier every time i say it
I'm glad it amuses you Martial
Anyone said it in particular or is it another one of your personal quotes along with "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind "
Got anything to say for yourself about that little gem
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 seconds ago
I'm glad it amuses you Martial
Anyone said it in particular or is it another one of your personal quotes along with "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind "
Got anything to say for yourself about that little gem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren have no knowledge of the engine that powered there car during 2014 -
------------ that is the gem among gems on here and quite possibly the biggest gem that has ever been on any F1 forum -
--------------------------------- ever
Then please do tell Martial, who has said that, let us all be in on the joke
Or is this another little fib to get out of your "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind " conundrum
I see you're running away from F1 debate and into childish games again
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 7 minutes ago
Then please do tell Martial, who has said that, let us all be in on the joke
Or is this another little fib to get out of your "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind " conundrum
I see you're running away from F1 debate and into childish games again
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so what are you actually disagreeing about if you agree with me that mclaren had a substantial knowledge of the merc PU -
------------------- all i have ever said is they would have had enough knowledge to have sent honda useful information of the unit -
--------------------------------- it really is that simple
You keep on changing your tune Martial, I just said it on the other thread, you're falling apart at every seam.
Substantial knowledge now, We've jumped from no knowledge, through reasonable knowledge to substantial. If you're going to have an argument mate you're going to have to pick one thing to argue. It's just amusing if you keep on changing your tune every 5 seconds
You know what I've been arguing, I've reminded you 8 times in this thread already. If you didn't want to get into that argument you shouldn't have, I never forced you. Your simple inability to counter my points means perhaps my points were right. After all you have no idea about PU's so why get into a debate about them
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 19 hours, 46 minutes ago
You keep on changing your tune Martial, I just said it on the other thread, you're falling apart at every seam.
Substantial knowledge now, We've jumped from no knowledge, through reasonable knowledge to substantial. If you're going to have an argument mate you're going to have to pick one thing to argue. It's just amusing if you keep on changing your tune every 5 seconds
You know what I've been arguing, I've reminded you 8 times in this thread already. If you didn't want to get into that argument you shouldn't have, I never forced you. Your simple inability to counter my points means perhaps my points were right. After all you have no idea about PU's so why get into a debate about them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
suggest you go back and look at the start of our debate nsix to find out who said what and when they said it -
i have only said mclaren would have been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
---------- it has been you adding bits on arguing all along that mclaren would not have a clue about the PU ,
what do you seriously expect me to say to somebody that thinks mclaren F1 -- repeat mclaren F1 would not have a fairly -- repeat fairly knowledgeable idea of the merc PU after having it inside there cars for over a year
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RED BULL NOTHING WITHOUT VETTEL ?
Page 14 of 14
10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14
posted on 9/12/14
Please post the full story, I do not have an autosport subscription.
Pretty please.
posted on 9/12/14
The public debut of the rekindled McLaren-Honda Formula 1 partnership last month offered the first glimpses of the Japanese manufacturer's new engine.
From what we've seen at the post-season Abu Dhabi F1 test and the team's filming day at Silverstone prior to that, the Honda power unit appears to be at least partly inspired by developments we saw from the other manufacturers in 2014.
Although the Abu Dhabi test was not a successful one, due to electrical problems preventing the car running anywhere near a full programme, the two outings Honda already has under its belt with this package puts it far ahead of where its rivals were at the same time last year.
Aside from changes to accommodate the Honda engine, the MP4-29H IXI (H for Honda and IXI for the engine specification), externally the car remains identical to the late-season MP4-29 racer.
Honda's power unit
Honda revealed the first image of its power unit before the Japanese GP
But underneath the bodywork the car is very different as the Honda power unit differs in many ways from the outgoing Mercedes package.
In the week of the Japanese Grand Prix Honda produced renders of its engine. Although much of the detail was edited or hidden, we now know that elements of these images were accurate from the limited view we had of the installation on the test car.
It appears that the key difference is the turbo layout. As widely expected, the Honda engine features a turbo split between the front and rear of the engine, as per the 2014 Mercedes motor.
Images of the test car appear to show the airbox ('1' on the main image, below) leads towards the front of the engine and not the rear.
The split turbo concept has benefits in packing by reducing heat transfer from the exhaust-driven turbine side of the turbo to the compressor, shortening the turbo's pipework for less turbo lag, and critically allowing space for a larger compressor.
A rear-mounted turbo is limited in diameter by the fixed gearbox mounts and space to package the MGU-H inside the V of the engine.
Having a larger compressor creates more power, but this can be compromised by the larger turbine being slower to spin up at low revs, which creates turbo lag. Mercedes appears to have countered the lag issue with use of the MGU-H and electronic control of a wastegate and pop-off valve.
In the McLaren test car and Honda's publicity images, we can tell that the turbo's charge air is cooled by an air-to-air cooler ('2' in the main image) mounted in the right sidepod. This is a mirror of McLaren's 2014 Mercedes installation where the cooler was in the left sidepod.
There's no apparent benefit to the cooler being on a particular side, so it's most likely the turbo location and the mounting of ancillaries that defines which side the outlet appears on.
The air-to-air intercooler is a bulkier but lighter solution, compared with a water-to-air cooler. It also lowers the temperature of the air entering the engine, meaning it can create more power.
Unusually for an F1 engine, the plenum that forms the intake above the engine is made from aluminium, rather than carbon fibre. This may be a solution purely for testing in order to allow access to the variable inlet trumpets, which are now allowed in 2015. The pipe exiting the intercooler can be seen running back up to the top of the engine to connect the plenum.
As the intercooler is on the right of the car, the other coolers for engine water/oil and ERS are now in the left sidepod. To ensure these cooled the power unit enough in testing, the team created large slots in the sidepod in order to vent the heat.
McLaren added slots to the sidepods for the tesst
McLaren could opt for Red Bull-style sidepods with its 2015 car © XPB
These openings are not a legal part of the regulations for races, but in testing such solutions are allowed. As with McLaren's 2014 race car the gearbox oil cooler is mounted above the gearbox and fed by a duct from the roll-hoop.
Mounted low down at the sides of the engine are large heat-shielded items ('3' on the main image) - these are likely to be the exhausts feeding the turbo. Unlike the majority of 2014 exhaust installations they are very low - mounted at floor level.
Presumably they tuck in around the back of the engine and lead up to the turbo, which sits in the front section of the gearbox.
The only other team to run such low exhausts in 2014 was Red Bull, which mounted a very long cooler package in the sidepods, with the intercoolers sited directly above the heat-shielded exhaust. This allowed much larger coolers within slimmer sidepods for better aerodynamics. Perhaps McLaren's 2015 MP4-30 will follow Red Bull's long and narrow sidepod philosophy?
Since pre-season testing does not begin until the start of February, McLaren and Honda now have three months to work through the issues found at Silverstone and Yas Marina, and complete the 12 days of pre-season testing, ahead of the first race of the season in Australia on March 15.
posted on 9/12/14
Thank you very much. They have emulated Mercedes' general arrangement of the turbo.
Interesting their power unit is so different. With all the info McLaren have been anonymously communicating and data from the control electronics that some did not know existed
posted on 9/12/14
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
posted on 9/12/14
this stuff is above my head
posted on 9/12/14
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, now, my ol bruvver WTCCBSBMOTOGPSBKMOTOGPF1GP2GP3
What is this gobbleygook you have copied from google?
posted on 9/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
posted on 9/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The CE is probably the most complex and important part of the PU. Even the sub components are strictly limited to how many times you can change them. Below is a list of some of them
control electronics PSU (CE PSU)
control electronics DC-DC (CE DC-DC)
control electronics CUH-K (CE CUH-K)
control electronics CUH (CE CUH)
control electronics PB1&2 (CE PB1&2)
control electronics OBI-2 (CE OBI-2)
control electronics CUK (CE CUK)
control electronics IGN310 (CE IGN310)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, now, my ol bruvver WTCCBSBMOTOGPSBKMOTOGPF1GP2GP3
What is this gobbleygook you have copied from google?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ah the magic of google
posted on 10/12/14
Wrong again a\s usual.
You will never find that information on google or anywhere else.
posted on 10/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
========================================
Dress it up however you want mate, I've only ever debated one thing and I made that clear from the start. You chose to take it up with me, I didn't make you. As it turned out you had no idea about the subject. You get anoyed when people debate about Senna without having seen him live. How do you think it looks when you debated the PU with me without even know that the Control Electronics (CE) was a thing?
""I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
All I ever debated
posted on 10/12/14
I seriously doubt martial saw Senna race at all
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 11 hours, 9 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 37 minutes ago
Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.
If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are actually missing the point of my initial comment nsix that started this debate / argument / two weeks ago or whatever it was -
my initial comment was that mclaren would of been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
it was not about mclarens expertise or knowledge with the PU which of course they must have a certain amount of both it was merely that they would of been sending honda a certain amount of information about the merc PU ,
---------------- as to the degree of expertise they have with the engine was not the issue as only merc and mclaren can actually answer that -
---------------- again my point was that mclaren would of been sending honda information about the merc donkey -
---------------- nothing more nothing less
========================================
Dress it up however you want mate, I've only ever debated one thing and I made that clear from the start. You chose to take it up with me, I didn't make you. As it turned out you had no idea about the subject. You get anoyed when people debate about Senna without having seen him live. How do you think it looks when you debated the PU with me without even know that the Control Electronics (CE) was a thing?
""I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
All I ever debated
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you still think mclaren dont have any knowledge of how the merc PU works -
-------------- even though it has been attached to there cars and there cars systems for over a year and that data is spread all over there many rows of super sophisticated state of the art computers -
you could"nt make this stuff up
posted on 11/12/14
"you could"nt make this stuff up "
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
posted on 11/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
=======================================
Where have I ever said McLaren have no knowledge of the Mercedes PU?
We're talking specifics here, what makes the Mercedes PU stand out from the rest, the kind of things Mercedes would do their all to protect.
If we're talking daft things I'm afraid you're leading the way by a country mile. Debating PU's with me for days, taking on my Control Electronics arguments over and over only to then tell me,
"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"
To coin a phrase, you could"nt make this stuff up
Know what all the parts of the PU do yet? realised that Mercedes choose what McLaren get to see?
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 35 minutes ago
"you could"nt make this stuff up"
Are we talking about your lack of knowledge of what a PU is here? Or are we talking about your naivety at how nice Mercedes would be to McLaren?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU -
we have all said daft things on here but that is something else completely
=======================================
Where have I ever said McLaren have no knowledge of the Mercedes PU?
We're talking specifics here, what makes the Mercedes PU stand out from the rest, the kind of things Mercedes would do their all to protect.
If we're talking daft things I'm afraid you're leading the way by a country mile. Debating PU's with me for days, taking on my Control Electronics arguments over and over only to then tell me,
"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"
To coin a phrase, you could"nt make this stuff up
Know what all the parts of the PU do yet? realised that Mercedes choose what McLaren get to see?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren have no knowledge of the engine that powered there car during 2014 -
it gets funnier every time i say it
posted on 11/12/14
I'm glad it amuses you Martial
Anyone said it in particular or is it another one of your personal quotes along with "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind "
Got anything to say for yourself about that little gem
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 seconds ago
I'm glad it amuses you Martial
Anyone said it in particular or is it another one of your personal quotes along with "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind "
Got anything to say for yourself about that little gem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
mclaren have no knowledge of the engine that powered there car during 2014 -
------------ that is the gem among gems on here and quite possibly the biggest gem that has ever been on any F1 forum -
--------------------------------- ever
posted on 11/12/14
Then please do tell Martial, who has said that, let us all be in on the joke
Or is this another little fib to get out of your "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind " conundrum
I see you're running away from F1 debate and into childish games again
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 7 minutes ago
Then please do tell Martial, who has said that, let us all be in on the joke
Or is this another little fib to get out of your "not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind " conundrum
I see you're running away from F1 debate and into childish games again
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so what are you actually disagreeing about if you agree with me that mclaren had a substantial knowledge of the merc PU -
------------------- all i have ever said is they would have had enough knowledge to have sent honda useful information of the unit -
--------------------------------- it really is that simple
posted on 11/12/14
You keep on changing your tune Martial, I just said it on the other thread, you're falling apart at every seam.
Substantial knowledge now, We've jumped from no knowledge, through reasonable knowledge to substantial. If you're going to have an argument mate you're going to have to pick one thing to argue. It's just amusing if you keep on changing your tune every 5 seconds
You know what I've been arguing, I've reminded you 8 times in this thread already. If you didn't want to get into that argument you shouldn't have, I never forced you. Your simple inability to counter my points means perhaps my points were right. After all you have no idea about PU's so why get into a debate about them
posted on 11/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 19 hours, 46 minutes ago
You keep on changing your tune Martial, I just said it on the other thread, you're falling apart at every seam.
Substantial knowledge now, We've jumped from no knowledge, through reasonable knowledge to substantial. If you're going to have an argument mate you're going to have to pick one thing to argue. It's just amusing if you keep on changing your tune every 5 seconds
You know what I've been arguing, I've reminded you 8 times in this thread already. If you didn't want to get into that argument you shouldn't have, I never forced you. Your simple inability to counter my points means perhaps my points were right. After all you have no idea about PU's so why get into a debate about them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
suggest you go back and look at the start of our debate nsix to find out who said what and when they said it -
i have only said mclaren would have been feeding honda information about the merc PU ,
---------- it has been you adding bits on arguing all along that mclaren would not have a clue about the PU ,
what do you seriously expect me to say to somebody that thinks mclaren F1 -- repeat mclaren F1 would not have a fairly -- repeat fairly knowledgeable idea of the merc PU after having it inside there cars for over a year
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