Anyway weren't you feigning tiredness to get out of picking an F1 subject to debate on Irish's topic? Not feigning? Off to bed then, or wasn't that a coffin?
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 31 minutes ago
MA I said I work with an ex Mclaren mechanic, not current F1.
I also said I know someone who works at Mclaren, he is their FM manager, not F1.
However they know people who are in F1.
As I have told you before I also do occasional work at the Red Bull factory in MK and at the Merc engine facilty in Brixworth.
Why do you doubt everything people say on here. We don't ALL make things up you know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh sorry GC -- i am very dubious of anybody on an internet forum when they say they know experts connected to F1 just to win an argument , i have heard that so many times over the yrs i just get tired of hearing little fairy tales -
whatever your mate says you are only going to tell me he backs up your opinion so what is the point ?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
Where did I say Expert? I didn't, I said I had contacts.
We ALL know how an engine works.
A piston is pulled down a cylinder. This downward movement causes a slight vacuum which in turn sucks an air and fuel mix through an open valve into the cylinder. As the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke, the valve closes. The piston then moves back up the cylinder, compressing the air fuel mixture. Just as it reaches the top of its stroke a spark ignites the fuel and due to it's compressed state explodes and pushes the piston back down the cylinder. As it returns back upwards another valve opens and the burnt fuel mix is expelled into the exhaust. As the piston reaches the top, the exhaust valve closes and the inlet valve again opens. The 4 stroke cycle begins again.
Simples.
But there is far more to it than HOW it works. It is a matter of how it works better than the others. This comes down to materials, intricacies of gas flow, heat distribution, oil ways for lubrication. THIS is the stuff Honda would want to know and THIS is the stuff Mclaren wouldn't know about without taking their sealed PU appart.
Why do you find this concept so hard to grasp?
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 13 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
========================================
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 19 hours, 11 minutes ago
We ALL know how an engine works.
A piston is pulled down a cylinder. This downward movement causes a slight vacuum which in turn sucks an air and fuel mix through an open valve into the cylinder. As the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke, the valve closes. The piston then moves back up the cylinder, compressing the air fuel mixture. Just as it reaches the top of its stroke a spark ignites the fuel and due to it's compressed state explodes and pushes the piston back down the cylinder. As it returns back upwards another valve opens and the burnt fuel mix is expelled into the exhaust. As the piston reaches the top, the exhaust valve closes and the inlet valve again opens. The 4 stroke cycle begins again.
Simples.
But there is far more to it than HOW it works. It is a matter of how it works better than the others. This comes down to materials, intricacies of gas flow, heat distribution, oil ways for lubrication. THIS is the stuff Honda would want to know and THIS is the stuff Mclaren wouldn't know about without taking their sealed PU appart.
Why do you find this concept so hard to grasp?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
lets start again -
------------- what exactly are we arguing about , i came on here last week and gave my opinion that mclaren would have been drip feeding little snippets to honda about the merc engine - which i still believe has happened -
------------------------- enlighten me what are you now arguing about because i seriously cant see your point in explaining to me how an engine works
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 13 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
========================================
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
You didn't start off saying 'little snippets' did you though? You said they were sending as much as possible. And as we have all said, what Honda want to know Mclaren can't tell them without stripping down and analysis the SEALED PU.
What sort of helpful information do YOU think Mclaren could supply to Honda? Remember the engine Honda are supplying was probably already built before the season started and may well have come under the same engine development restrictions as all the other teams.
Martial, can you please let us know the information you believe McLaren have passed on to Honda?
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 1 minute ago
You didn't start off saying 'little snippets' did you though? You said they were sending as much as possible. And as we have all said, what Honda want to know Mclaren can't tell them without stripping down and analysis the SEALED PU.
What sort of helpful information do YOU think Mclaren could supply to Honda? Remember the engine Honda are supplying was probably already built before the season started and may well have come under the same engine development restrictions as all the other teams.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
whatever i said the terminology i used amounts to the same point / comments i initially made -
everybody else has just added bits on because they did not like my comment -
it really is as simple as that GC
------------- i believe mclaren would have drip fed honda a certain amount of infomation about the merc lump , for me mclaren knowing what is at stake for next season the temptation would have been too great for mclaren not to --
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Martial, can you please let us know the information you believe McLaren have passed on to Honda?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
how do you seriously expect me or anybody else that does not work in a F1 team to know that manx -
------------ come on manx try and think a bit logically mate -
So what do you believe they passed on?
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 2 minutes ago
So what do you believe they passed on?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know manx -- i am not a F1 engineer ,
i just believe the temptation for mclaren to have communication with honda about by far the most competitive engine last season would have been massive -
You do not have to be an engineer to believe they have passed on anything. What do you believe they passed on?
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 41 seconds ago
You do not have to be an engineer to believe they have passed on anything. What do you believe they passed on?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
how many different ways do you want me to say the same thing manx -
---------------------- we are talking about very likely the most sophisticated engines on the planet , i am not qualified enough to even have a clue what would of been of use to honda -
---------------- but i am under no doubt that there would of been communication to honda about the PU --
So you have no clue?
Glad we got there eventually
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 3 minutes ago
So you have no clue?
Glad we got there eventually
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no --------- neither do you
Sorry MA, you have totally missed the point of what everyone else is trying to say.
The experts in building racing PUs are the likes of Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, Renault etc.
The users buy a packaged unit from these companies.
They neither know or need to know what makes one PU better than another. All they want to know is that the unit they are buying will provide them with the power they want and in the way they want it and hopefully more than their opponents. The only other things they will specify / need to know is how the unit fits onto their tub, and how everything else fits together.
One of the early problems the Renault powered teams had for instance was trying to dissipate heat from the engine.
The actual way the PU works is pretty much identical from engine manufacturer to engine manufacturer.
The differences lie deep inside the engine and the other components. Well away from the eyes of the customer. So any information that can be given to another manufacturer is minimal, and probably of no use.
So to ask you again MA, what type of useful information do you think Mercedes could have passed on to Honda? I'm not expecting you to be specific, just some thoughts that is all.
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sorry MA, you have totally missed the point of what everyone else is trying to say.
The experts in building racing PUs are the likes of Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, Renault etc.
The users buy a packaged unit from these companies.
They neither know or need to know what makes one PU better than another. All they want to know is that the unit they are buying will provide them with the power they want and in the way they want it and hopefully more than their opponents. The only other things they will specify / need to know is how the unit fits onto their tub, and how everything else fits together.
One of the early problems the Renault powered teams had for instance was trying to dissipate heat from the engine.
The actual way the PU works is pretty much identical from engine manufacturer to engine manufacturer.
The differences lie deep inside the engine and the other components. Well away from the eyes of the customer. So any information that can be given to another manufacturer is minimal, and probably of no use.
So to ask you again MA, what type of useful information do you think Mercedes could have passed on to Honda? I'm not expecting you to be specific, just some thoughts that is all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no i havent missed any point at all because people here are adding there own little bits of nonsense to my very simplistic initial comments -
once again for the 49 th time -
all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have communicated little snippets of information to honda about the merc PU ,
------------- thats it in very simplistic terms , that was all i have ever said and i strongly believe it to be true -
and once again like everybody else on here i am not remotely qualified to even know what that information may be so i will not waste words talking rubbish about maybe the most sophisticated engine the world has yet seen because like everybody on here i am just not qualified to do so --
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
========================================
Thought you had a good memory Martial, seems more like a sieve to me
I made the point initially and you chose to take it up with me as I assumed you disagree, I even went over this with you the other night when you admitted you didn't know what you were debating about
Perhaps if you don't understand a subject you shouldn't attempt to debate it with me, just a thought.....
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
========================================
Thought you had a good memory Martial, seems more like a sieve to me
I made the point initially and you chose to take it up with me as I assumed you disagree, I even went over this with you the other night when you admitted you didn't know what you were debating about
Perhaps if you don't understand a subject you shouldn't attempt to debate it with me, just a thought.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------
no -------- thats not even a F1 related point it is you having no answer to my initial very simplistic comment about mclaren communicating information to honda ---
----------- try and come back with something related to the point next time
You disagreed with me Martial. I made a point all on it's own and you decided to take it up with me. I wish you'd keep up Martial Want me to go back and quote it all again, this the fourth time now?
Just because you got into a debate which left you out of your depth you can't expect me to go easy on you. You even had the guts to tell me I'd lost the argument before finally admitting you didin't know what you were debating
Why should I have an answer to your point, I agreed with it. It's you who disagreed with me and then didn't have the nous to form even a basic counter argument.
Who knows, maybe Mercedes might tell Ferrari how their PU works next season, they are that charitable after all
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 34 seconds ago
You disagreed with me Martial. I made a point all on it's own and you decided to take it up with me. I wish you'd keep up MartialWant me to go back and quote it all again, this the fourth time now?
Just because you got into a debate which left you out of your depth you can't expect me to go easy on you. You even had the guts to tell me I'd lost the argument before finally admitting you didin't know what you were debating
Why should I have an answer to your point, I agreed with it. It's you who disagreed with me and then didn't have the nous to form even a basic counter argument.
Who knows, maybe Mercedes might tell Ferrari how their PU works next season, they are that charitable after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no --------- thats still not a formula 1 related point -
------------ try again
It's fine Martial, obviously you're afraid or whatever to try and take me on, I expected more of you but there we go.
If you're going to run away and not try and combat my points then there's no point to this. Better luck next time chap
Original point still stands it seems!
"I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
To be honest I thought it was pretty naive to go against me to start with
Sign in if you want to comment
RED BULL NOTHING WITHOUT VETTEL ?
Page 7 of 14
8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12
posted on 2/12/14
Anyway weren't you feigning tiredness to get out of picking an F1 subject to debate on Irish's topic? Not feigning? Off to bed then, or wasn't that a coffin?
posted on 2/12/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 31 minutes ago
MA I said I work with an ex Mclaren mechanic, not current F1.
I also said I know someone who works at Mclaren, he is their FM manager, not F1.
However they know people who are in F1.
As I have told you before I also do occasional work at the Red Bull factory in MK and at the Merc engine facilty in Brixworth.
Why do you doubt everything people say on here. We don't ALL make things up you know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh sorry GC -- i am very dubious of anybody on an internet forum when they say they know experts connected to F1 just to win an argument , i have heard that so many times over the yrs i just get tired of hearing little fairy tales -
whatever your mate says you are only going to tell me he backs up your opinion so what is the point ?
posted on 2/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
posted on 3/12/14
Where did I say Expert? I didn't, I said I had contacts.
posted on 3/12/14
We ALL know how an engine works.
A piston is pulled down a cylinder. This downward movement causes a slight vacuum which in turn sucks an air and fuel mix through an open valve into the cylinder. As the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke, the valve closes. The piston then moves back up the cylinder, compressing the air fuel mixture. Just as it reaches the top of its stroke a spark ignites the fuel and due to it's compressed state explodes and pushes the piston back down the cylinder. As it returns back upwards another valve opens and the burnt fuel mix is expelled into the exhaust. As the piston reaches the top, the exhaust valve closes and the inlet valve again opens. The 4 stroke cycle begins again.
Simples.
But there is far more to it than HOW it works. It is a matter of how it works better than the others. This comes down to materials, intricacies of gas flow, heat distribution, oil ways for lubrication. THIS is the stuff Honda would want to know and THIS is the stuff Mclaren wouldn't know about without taking their sealed PU appart.
Why do you find this concept so hard to grasp?
posted on 3/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 13 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
========================================
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
posted on 3/12/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 19 hours, 11 minutes ago
We ALL know how an engine works.
A piston is pulled down a cylinder. This downward movement causes a slight vacuum which in turn sucks an air and fuel mix through an open valve into the cylinder. As the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke, the valve closes. The piston then moves back up the cylinder, compressing the air fuel mixture. Just as it reaches the top of its stroke a spark ignites the fuel and due to it's compressed state explodes and pushes the piston back down the cylinder. As it returns back upwards another valve opens and the burnt fuel mix is expelled into the exhaust. As the piston reaches the top, the exhaust valve closes and the inlet valve again opens. The 4 stroke cycle begins again.
Simples.
But there is far more to it than HOW it works. It is a matter of how it works better than the others. This comes down to materials, intricacies of gas flow, heat distribution, oil ways for lubrication. THIS is the stuff Honda would want to know and THIS is the stuff Mclaren wouldn't know about without taking their sealed PU appart.
Why do you find this concept so hard to grasp?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
lets start again -
------------- what exactly are we arguing about , i came on here last week and gave my opinion that mclaren would have been drip feeding little snippets to honda about the merc engine - which i still believe has happened -
------------------------- enlighten me what are you now arguing about because i seriously cant see your point in explaining to me how an engine works
posted on 3/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 13 hours, 55 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 21 hours, 5 minutes ago
You really do like the word reasonablewonder why it joined us so late...
You're still not being logical, why would McLaren have to know how the PU works? Mercedes designed the control electronics so they're not going to allow McLaren to see anything they don't want them seeing.
At the end of the day McLaren will know only what Mercedes tell them. How the engine works is not something McLaren need. They just have Mercedes user interface to monitor parameters.
Think logically. Do you understand where I'm coming from? How many systems in the car do you think there are related to the engine outside Mercedes control electronics? What do they have to go go through... Mercedes controlled parts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry i think its rubbish -
--------- the PU would be connected to many of the systems in the mclaren and to say that mclaren of all people just dont have a clue how the PU works when it is connected to many of those systems is beyond laughable -
-------------------- sorry mate i just dont believe that in there 48 seasons in F1 with there incredible expertise and knowledge of F1 that they dont have the foggiest idea how this yrs engine works
========================================
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
posted on 3/12/14
You didn't start off saying 'little snippets' did you though? You said they were sending as much as possible. And as we have all said, what Honda want to know Mclaren can't tell them without stripping down and analysis the SEALED PU.
What sort of helpful information do YOU think Mclaren could supply to Honda? Remember the engine Honda are supplying was probably already built before the season started and may well have come under the same engine development restrictions as all the other teams.
posted on 3/12/14
Martial, can you please let us know the information you believe McLaren have passed on to Honda?
posted on 3/12/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 1 minute ago
You didn't start off saying 'little snippets' did you though? You said they were sending as much as possible. And as we have all said, what Honda want to know Mclaren can't tell them without stripping down and analysis the SEALED PU.
What sort of helpful information do YOU think Mclaren could supply to Honda? Remember the engine Honda are supplying was probably already built before the season started and may well have come under the same engine development restrictions as all the other teams.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
whatever i said the terminology i used amounts to the same point / comments i initially made -
everybody else has just added bits on because they did not like my comment -
it really is as simple as that GC
------------- i believe mclaren would have drip fed honda a certain amount of infomation about the merc lump , for me mclaren knowing what is at stake for next season the temptation would have been too great for mclaren not to --
posted on 3/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
Martial, can you please let us know the information you believe McLaren have passed on to Honda?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
how do you seriously expect me or anybody else that does not work in a F1 team to know that manx -
------------ come on manx try and think a bit logically mate -
posted on 3/12/14
So what do you believe they passed on?
posted on 3/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 2 minutes ago
So what do you believe they passed on?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know manx -- i am not a F1 engineer ,
i just believe the temptation for mclaren to have communication with honda about by far the most competitive engine last season would have been massive -
posted on 3/12/14
You do not have to be an engineer to believe they have passed on anything. What do you believe they passed on?
posted on 3/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 41 seconds ago
You do not have to be an engineer to believe they have passed on anything. What do you believe they passed on?
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how many different ways do you want me to say the same thing manx -
---------------------- we are talking about very likely the most sophisticated engines on the planet , i am not qualified enough to even have a clue what would of been of use to honda -
---------------- but i am under no doubt that there would of been communication to honda about the PU --
posted on 3/12/14
So you have no clue?
Glad we got there eventually
posted on 3/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 3 minutes ago
So you have no clue?
Glad we got there eventually
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no --------- neither do you
posted on 3/12/14
Sorry MA, you have totally missed the point of what everyone else is trying to say.
The experts in building racing PUs are the likes of Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, Renault etc.
The users buy a packaged unit from these companies.
They neither know or need to know what makes one PU better than another. All they want to know is that the unit they are buying will provide them with the power they want and in the way they want it and hopefully more than their opponents. The only other things they will specify / need to know is how the unit fits onto their tub, and how everything else fits together.
One of the early problems the Renault powered teams had for instance was trying to dissipate heat from the engine.
The actual way the PU works is pretty much identical from engine manufacturer to engine manufacturer.
The differences lie deep inside the engine and the other components. Well away from the eyes of the customer. So any information that can be given to another manufacturer is minimal, and probably of no use.
So to ask you again MA, what type of useful information do you think Mercedes could have passed on to Honda? I'm not expecting you to be specific, just some thoughts that is all.
posted on 3/12/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 14 minutes ago
Sorry MA, you have totally missed the point of what everyone else is trying to say.
The experts in building racing PUs are the likes of Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, Renault etc.
The users buy a packaged unit from these companies.
They neither know or need to know what makes one PU better than another. All they want to know is that the unit they are buying will provide them with the power they want and in the way they want it and hopefully more than their opponents. The only other things they will specify / need to know is how the unit fits onto their tub, and how everything else fits together.
One of the early problems the Renault powered teams had for instance was trying to dissipate heat from the engine.
The actual way the PU works is pretty much identical from engine manufacturer to engine manufacturer.
The differences lie deep inside the engine and the other components. Well away from the eyes of the customer. So any information that can be given to another manufacturer is minimal, and probably of no use.
So to ask you again MA, what type of useful information do you think Mercedes could have passed on to Honda? I'm not expecting you to be specific, just some thoughts that is all.
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no i havent missed any point at all because people here are adding there own little bits of nonsense to my very simplistic initial comments -
once again for the 49 th time -
all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have communicated little snippets of information to honda about the merc PU ,
------------- thats it in very simplistic terms , that was all i have ever said and i strongly believe it to be true -
and once again like everybody else on here i am not remotely qualified to even know what that information may be so i will not waste words talking rubbish about maybe the most sophisticated engine the world has yet seen because like everybody on here i am just not qualified to do so --
posted on 3/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
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it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
========================================
Thought you had a good memory Martial, seems more like a sieve to me
I made the point initially and you chose to take it up with me as I assumed you disagree, I even went over this with you the other night when you admitted you didn't know what you were debating about
Perhaps if you don't understand a subject you shouldn't attempt to debate it with me, just a thought.....
posted on 4/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 hours, 13 minutes ago
You are still not addressing the point here Martial. I know how a engine works, I vaguely know how a whole PU works, I'm sure McLaren know even more. But this is not what I'm debating. I'm debating why McLaren would need to know how the Mercedes PU works specifically.
Mercedes aren't going to tell a rival these things, and unless you can reverse engineer the PU McLaren won't be finding it out themselves.
You're just saying words, "connected to many systems", what systems are we talking about here given the PU is a job lot.
To quote Ron Dennis, McLaren don't have access to the Mercedes "source code". They do not know the specifics about what makes the Mercedes PU tick
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it is your point and not mine , it is a point that you have made up for whatever reason which is not relative to my initial comments last week -
which was - i believe mclaren would have been drip feeding honda little bits of info about the merc engine , and then we go all round the houses arguing a ridiculous point whether or not mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU which they obviously do -
------------------ so what exactly are you now saying
========================================
Thought you had a good memory Martial, seems more like a sieve to me
I made the point initially and you chose to take it up with me as I assumed you disagree, I even went over this with you the other night when you admitted you didn't know what you were debating about
Perhaps if you don't understand a subject you shouldn't attempt to debate it with me, just a thought.....
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no -------- thats not even a F1 related point it is you having no answer to my initial very simplistic comment about mclaren communicating information to honda ---
----------- try and come back with something related to the point next time
posted on 4/12/14
You disagreed with me Martial. I made a point all on it's own and you decided to take it up with me. I wish you'd keep up Martial Want me to go back and quote it all again, this the fourth time now?
Just because you got into a debate which left you out of your depth you can't expect me to go easy on you. You even had the guts to tell me I'd lost the argument before finally admitting you didin't know what you were debating
Why should I have an answer to your point, I agreed with it. It's you who disagreed with me and then didn't have the nous to form even a basic counter argument.
Who knows, maybe Mercedes might tell Ferrari how their PU works next season, they are that charitable after all
posted on 4/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 34 seconds ago
You disagreed with me Martial. I made a point all on it's own and you decided to take it up with me. I wish you'd keep up MartialWant me to go back and quote it all again, this the fourth time now?
Just because you got into a debate which left you out of your depth you can't expect me to go easy on you. You even had the guts to tell me I'd lost the argument before finally admitting you didin't know what you were debating
Why should I have an answer to your point, I agreed with it. It's you who disagreed with me and then didn't have the nous to form even a basic counter argument.
Who knows, maybe Mercedes might tell Ferrari how their PU works next season, they are that charitable after all
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no --------- thats still not a formula 1 related point -
------------ try again
posted on 4/12/14
It's fine Martial, obviously you're afraid or whatever to try and take me on, I expected more of you but there we go.
If you're going to run away and not try and combat my points then there's no point to this. Better luck next time chap
Original point still stands it seems!
"I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."
To be honest I thought it was pretty naive to go against me to start with
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