comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Martial, oh martial, this is really tragic and unfortunate. It is clear to me that you do not understand what you read or can process information available to you. Anyone can google anything and post it here, it is not difficult.
However, the ability to explain it in lay terms shows an understanding of it. It is clear to me you are not the brightest so will try to simplify it further.
Typically during the sales of goods and services there is a contract, terms and conditions, terms of service, etc. When dealing with intellectual property there is usually a confidentiality agreement. This agreement protects the transmission of information, written or verbal.
You can pass as much "anonymous information/communication" along if you so choose, however when that "anonymous information/communication" is put into use or performance to seek a competitive advantage or a commercial advantage, you can be sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement or IP infringement.
For example, 2 employees from coke stole the formula and took it to pepsi, pepsi promptly called the FBI because if they had used that information to improve their drink, coke could have sued them.
Apple and Samsung have been suing each other all over the globe for their phones looking similar and having sliders. Considering anyone can buy either phone and break it down into its constituent parts you would think this was not easy to sue as you cannot prove where the infringement happened but they have both won suits, for and in their favour.
In addition to a confidentiality agreement, McLaren would have signed a contract with Mercedes about the "use of their engines." I would wager in that agreement if there are ways to improve performance found by McLaren, they would have to share it with Mercedes. To use the engines and the software and the data Mclaren would have guaranteed Mercedes they will use "reasonable" or "best" endeavours to ensure IP is not infringed or data transferred to another party who is not a named member of the agreement.
Knowing how these organisations work, I would not be surprised that Mercedes have already hired people to examine Honda's hybrid PU patent to see if there are any similarities. If there are, no matter how careful the "anonymous information/communication" was passed on, if it gets incorporated into the design of Honda's PU, Mercedes can and will sue both McLaren and Honda. McLaren for breach of contract and confidentiality and Honda for infringing their intellectual property rights.
They can deny it till the cows come home but if Mercedes can show how their designs were copied, it is a slam dunk. Honda are not stupid, McLaren are also not stupid and I have no doubts that there will be some data that has been shared to do with performance, ratios, fuel efficiency, power delivery, etc.
But the fundamentals, design parameters, characteristics, how the PU works, the internal systems, the general arrangement of the PU, materials used, if alloys were used, what alloys, how the mix was achieved, etc. will have been protected and Mercedes will watch happily to see if McLaren or Honda are that stupid to copy their IP.
I appreciate what I have put down may be too complex for you to understand, so I will try something simpler. You know vending machines, right? When you put money into one for a snack, you have formed an implicit contract with the vending machine to provide you with a snack, if it does not, you can actually sue the owner of the vending machine.
Regarding IP, remember when you were in school and were copying your friend's test answers with or without his knowledge (I suspect without his knowledge), you were stealing his IP. You may have been taught the same thing in class but his interpretation of what was studied in class is his intellectual property so to speak and when your answers are marked, even though the teacher did not see you copying his work, she can see clearly from your answers that you have information you gleaned from him and you will get punished in school.
Hopefully that clears it up, if it does not, I would not bother too much, you do not have the brain power for this sort of stuff.
Cheers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very unimpressive load of twaddle that you have obviously googled and copied that in the real world has absolutely no relation to the original point i made -
do you seriously believe in your wildest dreams that mclaren have had no communication with honda about the merc engine - note the word " communication "
i did not say copying the merc PU piece for piece to make an identical copy
------------ merely communication with little snippets of info and data about the merc unit -
------------- again note the word " communication "
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 13 minutes ago
You really are a dumb fecker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you think there has been no communication between mclaren and honda about the merc donkey -
------------------------ gotcha
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
=========================
You're going to have to explain your thinking there Martial. Why would McLaren know how the PU works, it arrives as a sealed unit. Mercedes have known since May 2013 that McLaren were jumping ship and would have taken precautions.
Why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU works. You're going to have to form an argument at some point otherwise this aint a debate
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 27 minutes ago
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh i read it manx -- but it had zero relation to my initial point about communication -
-------------- again note the word communication
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
=========================
You're going to have to explain your thinking there Martial. Why would McLaren know how the PU works, it arrives as a sealed unit. Mercedes have known since May 2013 that McLaren were jumping ship and would have taken precautions.
Why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU works. You're going to have to form an argument at some point otherwise this aint a debate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car to work in harmony with the mp4/29 and the many mclaren systems dont have the foggiest idea how the PU works --
----------- interesting
Your argument falls over straight away there martial,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why do they have to know how it works? Yes they have to know it works but not how it works. I don't want this to get to technical but they are in effect just 'users'. Users need not know 'how' something works, just how to use it
We're talking about smart cookies here Martial, Mercedes aren't going to be giving away trade secrets to the opposition, there would be zero benefit to it.
So then, why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU actually works?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 12 minutes ago
Your argument falls over straight away there martial,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why do they have to know how it works? Yes they have to know it works but not how it works. I don't want this to get to technical but they are in effect just 'users'. Users need not know 'how' something works, just how to use it
We're talking about smart cookies here Martial, Mercedes aren't going to be giving away trade secrets to the opposition, there would be zero benefit to it.
So then, why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you seriously dont think that mclaren need to know or dont know how the PU works in order to it install into there car in order to make it work in harmony with there own incredibly sophisticated and complex systems
---------------- yeh ok
------------ you are missing my original point here which was initially that mclaren in my opinion would of been giving honda little snippets of useful information about the PU -
------------ that was my original point , not that they didnt have as much expertise with the unit as merc , but again to repeat and something that you agreed with -
----------------- that mclaren would have been sending information to honda about the merc unit
You're not putting a very good argument across here Martial. Why would McLaren need to know how the PU works to use it? Mercedes are the team who design and make it, why on earth would McLaren need to know? What are they going to do with that info that benefits Mercedes, don't be so naive!
I didn't miss your original point Martial, I agreed that McLaren would be in communication with Honda, theres no use back tracking here, I never made that argument
At the end of the day McLaren won't know how the Mercedes PU works so the info they do send to Honda is going to be pretty limited.
Until you can come up with a legitimate reason for McLaren knowing how the PU works you have a flawed argument. McLaren needs to know what the PU requires, not why it requires it or how it'll work. Think about it logically mate.
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're not putting a very good argument across here Martial. Why would McLaren need to know how the PU works to use it? Mercedes are the team who design and make it, why on earth would McLaren need to know? What are they going to do with that info that benefits Mercedes, don't be so naive!
I didn't miss your original point Martial, I agreed that McLaren would be in communication with Honda, theres no use back tracking here, I never made that argument
At the end of the day McLaren won't know how the Mercedes PU works so the info they do send to Honda is going to be pretty limited.
Until you can come up with a legitimate reason for McLaren knowing how the PU works you have a flawed argument. McLaren needs to know what the PU requires, not why it requires it or how it'll work. Think about it logically mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to put words into my mouth nsix - i have never said mclaren have the same expertise as merc with the PU it is you who are saying that and are trying to bend it into an argument as to mclaren not having that same expertise -
-------- all i have said and you have agreed with me several times is that mclaren would have been giving honda information about the merc PU -
------------ nothing more nothing less
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 minute ago
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you tell us WT --
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
=======================================
I agreed that McLaren would help Honda if they could from the start, why are you trying to make an argument out of this, I agreed! I'm not going to counter something I agree with
You're the one trying to get out of this, you're the one who argued something you couldn't back up. My argument was only ever about how much McLaren know about how the Mercedes PU worked.
and once again, this is YOUR quote:
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why the sudden change of mind about how much McLaren know? Let's concentrate on what we are debating here Martial, why would you want to repeat something we agree with over and over? Cold feet about your debating skills?
MA you said
----- again note the word communication
Let me remind you of your first mention of Mclaren passing information to Honda in this thread.
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 2 days, 2 hours ago
Blah, blah blah........
on the plus side to that i would imagine that mclaren ( despite them probably saying otherwise ) would have drip fed honda as much in depth information on the merc donkey as was humanely possible with given the computer wizardry they have at there fingertips i would imagine was fairly substantial -
You weren't just saying communication were you? Or was this just tongue in cheek like so many other posts turn out to be when you realise you lost the argument?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
=======================================
I agreed that McLaren would help Honda if they could from the start, why are you trying to make an argument out of this, I agreed! I'm not going to counter something I agree with
You're the one trying to get out of this, you're the one who argued something you couldn't back up. My argument was only ever about how much McLaren know about how the Mercedes PU worked.
and once again, this is YOUR quote:
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why the sudden change of mind about how much McLaren know? Let's concentrate on what we are debating here Martial, why would you want to repeat something we agree with over and over? Cold feet about your debating skills?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh -- i think it is reasonable to assume that mclaren have a certain amount of knowledge how an engine works ---- why would they not have any knowledge of how there respective engines work in any given season when they have to work with it and install it into there cars -
------------- glad you agree with me on my communication opinion
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 minute ago
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you tell us WT --
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OK nothing.
You're still not giving me reason's of why McLaren would know how the PU works? If you want to fit an engine do you need to know about it's mounting points or valve timing
There is not a single reason for McLaren to know how the PU actually works. They just have to know how to operate it. If it breaks thats Mercedes issue, the PU is a sealed unit that they deal with.
Not in a million years would a F1 team allow a competitor to know how the PU works. As like I said, why would McLaren need to know? Why would they be allowed to know?
Poor show Martial, poor show.
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
You're still not giving me reason's of why McLaren would know how the PU works? If you want to fit an engine do you need to know about it's mounting points or valve timing
There is not a single reason for McLaren to know how the PU actually works. They just have to know how to operate it. If it breaks thats Mercedes issue, the PU is a sealed unit that they deal with.
Not in a million years would a F1 team allow a competitor to know how the PU works. As like I said, why would McLaren need to know? Why would they be allowed to know?
Poor show Martial, poor show.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so mclaren over the years have never known how any of there engines have worked when they have installed them into there respective cars -
-------------- they just install them and hope by magic that all there other systems work in harmony with the respective engine without having a reasonable idea how the engine works -
--------------- note the word reasonable
-------------------------------- gotcha
Well Martial, a few years ago McLaren and Mercedes were in a partnership so I'm sure they knew a bit about the V8's and V10's etc
Since May 2013 we've known McLaren were joining Honda and since 2010 Mercedes has had it's own team so didn't need this partnership. Thus McLaren and Mercedes weren't exactly going to be the closest when they finally set their eyes on the new V6 PU.
You realise yes that the PU is far more than a engine these days, it's the whole package? Why would a 'user' need to know how the thing actually works, they just need to be able to use it. This is one of the reasons McLaren got out of bed with Mercedes, keep up to date with current affairs chap
Know how to use it and fit it to the car - yes
Know how it works - no
Follow me?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
Well Martial, a few years ago McLaren and Mercedes were in a partnership so I'm sure they knew a bit about the V8's and V10's etc
Since May 2013 we've known McLaren were joining Honda and since 2010 Mercedes has had it's own team so didn't need this partnership. Thus McLaren and Mercedes weren't exactly going to be the closest when they finally set their eyes on the new V6 PU.
You realise yes that the PU is far more than a engine these days, it's the whole package? Why would a 'user' need to know how the thing actually works, they just need to be able to use it. This is one of the reasons McLaren got out of bed with Mercedes, keep up to date with current affairs chap
Know how to use it and fit it to the car - yes
Know how it works - no
Follow me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh i see where you are coming from
so over the years mclaren have known how all there other engines have worked in there respective cars since there arrival in F1 48 yrs ago or whatever it is -
but in the one solitary year of 2014 they dont have the foggiest idea
------------ but in the last 47 years they did -
------------------ gotcha
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posted on 1/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 7 hours, 54 minutes ago
Martial, oh martial, this is really tragic and unfortunate. It is clear to me that you do not understand what you read or can process information available to you. Anyone can google anything and post it here, it is not difficult.
However, the ability to explain it in lay terms shows an understanding of it. It is clear to me you are not the brightest so will try to simplify it further.
Typically during the sales of goods and services there is a contract, terms and conditions, terms of service, etc. When dealing with intellectual property there is usually a confidentiality agreement. This agreement protects the transmission of information, written or verbal.
You can pass as much "anonymous information/communication" along if you so choose, however when that "anonymous information/communication" is put into use or performance to seek a competitive advantage or a commercial advantage, you can be sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement or IP infringement.
For example, 2 employees from coke stole the formula and took it to pepsi, pepsi promptly called the FBI because if they had used that information to improve their drink, coke could have sued them.
Apple and Samsung have been suing each other all over the globe for their phones looking similar and having sliders. Considering anyone can buy either phone and break it down into its constituent parts you would think this was not easy to sue as you cannot prove where the infringement happened but they have both won suits, for and in their favour.
In addition to a confidentiality agreement, McLaren would have signed a contract with Mercedes about the "use of their engines." I would wager in that agreement if there are ways to improve performance found by McLaren, they would have to share it with Mercedes. To use the engines and the software and the data Mclaren would have guaranteed Mercedes they will use "reasonable" or "best" endeavours to ensure IP is not infringed or data transferred to another party who is not a named member of the agreement.
Knowing how these organisations work, I would not be surprised that Mercedes have already hired people to examine Honda's hybrid PU patent to see if there are any similarities. If there are, no matter how careful the "anonymous information/communication" was passed on, if it gets incorporated into the design of Honda's PU, Mercedes can and will sue both McLaren and Honda. McLaren for breach of contract and confidentiality and Honda for infringing their intellectual property rights.
They can deny it till the cows come home but if Mercedes can show how their designs were copied, it is a slam dunk. Honda are not stupid, McLaren are also not stupid and I have no doubts that there will be some data that has been shared to do with performance, ratios, fuel efficiency, power delivery, etc.
But the fundamentals, design parameters, characteristics, how the PU works, the internal systems, the general arrangement of the PU, materials used, if alloys were used, what alloys, how the mix was achieved, etc. will have been protected and Mercedes will watch happily to see if McLaren or Honda are that stupid to copy their IP.
I appreciate what I have put down may be too complex for you to understand, so I will try something simpler. You know vending machines, right? When you put money into one for a snack, you have formed an implicit contract with the vending machine to provide you with a snack, if it does not, you can actually sue the owner of the vending machine.
Regarding IP, remember when you were in school and were copying your friend's test answers with or without his knowledge (I suspect without his knowledge), you were stealing his IP. You may have been taught the same thing in class but his interpretation of what was studied in class is his intellectual property so to speak and when your answers are marked, even though the teacher did not see you copying his work, she can see clearly from your answers that you have information you gleaned from him and you will get punished in school.
Hopefully that clears it up, if it does not, I would not bother too much, you do not have the brain power for this sort of stuff.
Cheers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very unimpressive load of twaddle that you have obviously googled and copied that in the real world has absolutely no relation to the original point i made -
do you seriously believe in your wildest dreams that mclaren have had no communication with honda about the merc engine - note the word " communication "
i did not say copying the merc PU piece for piece to make an identical copy
------------ merely communication with little snippets of info and data about the merc unit -
------------- again note the word " communication "
posted on 1/12/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/12/14
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
posted on 1/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 13 minutes ago
You really are a dumb fecker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so you think there has been no communication between mclaren and honda about the merc donkey -
------------------------ gotcha
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
posted on 1/12/14
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
posted on 1/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
=========================
You're going to have to explain your thinking there Martial. Why would McLaren know how the PU works, it arrives as a sealed unit. Mercedes have known since May 2013 that McLaren were jumping ship and would have taken precautions.
Why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU works. You're going to have to form an argument at some point otherwise this aint a debate
posted on 1/12/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 27 minutes ago
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh i read it manx -- but it had zero relation to my initial point about communication -
-------------- again note the word communication
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 10 minutes ago
I'm certainly confused, I can't get my head around someone thinking Mercedes are charitable enough to tell McLaren how their PU works. Why tell any team, never mind one that is defecting to another supplier
----------------------------------------------------------------------
doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now
=========================
You're going to have to explain your thinking there Martial. Why would McLaren know how the PU works, it arrives as a sealed unit. Mercedes have known since May 2013 that McLaren were jumping ship and would have taken precautions.
Why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU works. You're going to have to form an argument at some point otherwise this aint a debate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car to work in harmony with the mp4/29 and the many mclaren systems dont have the foggiest idea how the PU works --
----------- interesting
posted on 1/12/14
Your argument falls over straight away there martial,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why do they have to know how it works? Yes they have to know it works but not how it works. I don't want this to get to technical but they are in effect just 'users'. Users need not know 'how' something works, just how to use it
We're talking about smart cookies here Martial, Mercedes aren't going to be giving away trade secrets to the opposition, there would be zero benefit to it.
So then, why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU actually works?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 12 minutes ago
Your argument falls over straight away there martial,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why do they have to know how it works? Yes they have to know it works but not how it works. I don't want this to get to technical but they are in effect just 'users'. Users need not know 'how' something works, just how to use it
We're talking about smart cookies here Martial, Mercedes aren't going to be giving away trade secrets to the opposition, there would be zero benefit to it.
So then, why would McLaren know how the Mercedes PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you seriously dont think that mclaren need to know or dont know how the PU works in order to it install into there car in order to make it work in harmony with there own incredibly sophisticated and complex systems
---------------- yeh ok
------------ you are missing my original point here which was initially that mclaren in my opinion would of been giving honda little snippets of useful information about the PU -
------------ that was my original point , not that they didnt have as much expertise with the unit as merc , but again to repeat and something that you agreed with -
----------------- that mclaren would have been sending information to honda about the merc unit
posted on 1/12/14
You're not putting a very good argument across here Martial. Why would McLaren need to know how the PU works to use it? Mercedes are the team who design and make it, why on earth would McLaren need to know? What are they going to do with that info that benefits Mercedes, don't be so naive!
I didn't miss your original point Martial, I agreed that McLaren would be in communication with Honda, theres no use back tracking here, I never made that argument
At the end of the day McLaren won't know how the Mercedes PU works so the info they do send to Honda is going to be pretty limited.
Until you can come up with a legitimate reason for McLaren knowing how the PU works you have a flawed argument. McLaren needs to know what the PU requires, not why it requires it or how it'll work. Think about it logically mate.
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 8 minutes ago
You're not putting a very good argument across here Martial. Why would McLaren need to know how the PU works to use it? Mercedes are the team who design and make it, why on earth would McLaren need to know? What are they going to do with that info that benefits Mercedes, don't be so naive!
I didn't miss your original point Martial, I agreed that McLaren would be in communication with Honda, theres no use back tracking here, I never made that argument
At the end of the day McLaren won't know how the Mercedes PU works so the info they do send to Honda is going to be pretty limited.
Until you can come up with a legitimate reason for McLaren knowing how the PU works you have a flawed argument. McLaren needs to know what the PU requires, not why it requires it or how it'll work. Think about it logically mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to put words into my mouth nsix - i have never said mclaren have the same expertise as merc with the PU it is you who are saying that and are trying to bend it into an argument as to mclaren not having that same expertise -
-------- all i have said and you have agreed with me several times is that mclaren would have been giving honda information about the merc PU -
------------ nothing more nothing less
posted on 1/12/14
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
posted on 1/12/14
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 minute ago
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you tell us WT --
posted on 1/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
=======================================
I agreed that McLaren would help Honda if they could from the start, why are you trying to make an argument out of this, I agreed! I'm not going to counter something I agree with
You're the one trying to get out of this, you're the one who argued something you couldn't back up. My argument was only ever about how much McLaren know about how the Mercedes PU worked.
and once again, this is YOUR quote:
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why the sudden change of mind about how much McLaren know? Let's concentrate on what we are debating here Martial, why would you want to repeat something we agree with over and over? Cold feet about your debating skills?
posted on 1/12/14
MA you said
----- again note the word communication
Let me remind you of your first mention of Mclaren passing information to Honda in this thread.
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 2 days, 2 hours ago
Blah, blah blah........
on the plus side to that i would imagine that mclaren ( despite them probably saying otherwise ) would have drip fed honda as much in depth information on the merc donkey as was humanely possible with given the computer wizardry they have at there fingertips i would imagine was fairly substantial -
You weren't just saying communication were you? Or was this just tongue in cheek like so many other posts turn out to be when you realise you lost the argument?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
You're putting words into your own mouth
Where have I said you said McLaren had the same expertise as Mercedes?
Are you aware of what you have even been arguing with me... oh dear.
I even specified when I quoted you,
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Are you now saying McLaren don't need to know how the PU actually works?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you are trying to steer away from my initial comments that you have agreed with several times by creating a different argument because you cannot counter my initial comments that you agree with -
once again all i have ever said is i believe mclaren would have been sending honda snippets of information about the merc PU
---------------------- and you agreed with me ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- several times
=======================================
I agreed that McLaren would help Honda if they could from the start, why are you trying to make an argument out of this, I agreed! I'm not going to counter something I agree with
You're the one trying to get out of this, you're the one who argued something you couldn't back up. My argument was only ever about how much McLaren know about how the Mercedes PU worked.
and once again, this is YOUR quote:
"so mclaren who work with the unit and its systems , and by definition have to know how it works because they install it into there car ..."
Why the sudden change of mind about how much McLaren know? Let's concentrate on what we are debating here Martial, why would you want to repeat something we agree with over and over? Cold feet about your debating skills?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh -- i think it is reasonable to assume that mclaren have a certain amount of knowledge how an engine works ---- why would they not have any knowledge of how there respective engines work in any given season when they have to work with it and install it into there cars -
------------- glad you agree with me on my communication opinion
posted on 1/12/14
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 minute ago
What information can McLaren pass on to Honda that would help them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you tell us WT --
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OK nothing.
posted on 1/12/14
You're still not giving me reason's of why McLaren would know how the PU works? If you want to fit an engine do you need to know about it's mounting points or valve timing
There is not a single reason for McLaren to know how the PU actually works. They just have to know how to operate it. If it breaks thats Mercedes issue, the PU is a sealed unit that they deal with.
Not in a million years would a F1 team allow a competitor to know how the PU works. As like I said, why would McLaren need to know? Why would they be allowed to know?
Poor show Martial, poor show.
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
You're still not giving me reason's of why McLaren would know how the PU works? If you want to fit an engine do you need to know about it's mounting points or valve timing
There is not a single reason for McLaren to know how the PU actually works. They just have to know how to operate it. If it breaks thats Mercedes issue, the PU is a sealed unit that they deal with.
Not in a million years would a F1 team allow a competitor to know how the PU works. As like I said, why would McLaren need to know? Why would they be allowed to know?
Poor show Martial, poor show.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
so mclaren over the years have never known how any of there engines have worked when they have installed them into there respective cars -
-------------- they just install them and hope by magic that all there other systems work in harmony with the respective engine without having a reasonable idea how the engine works -
--------------- note the word reasonable
-------------------------------- gotcha
posted on 1/12/14
Well Martial, a few years ago McLaren and Mercedes were in a partnership so I'm sure they knew a bit about the V8's and V10's etc
Since May 2013 we've known McLaren were joining Honda and since 2010 Mercedes has had it's own team so didn't need this partnership. Thus McLaren and Mercedes weren't exactly going to be the closest when they finally set their eyes on the new V6 PU.
You realise yes that the PU is far more than a engine these days, it's the whole package? Why would a 'user' need to know how the thing actually works, they just need to be able to use it. This is one of the reasons McLaren got out of bed with Mercedes, keep up to date with current affairs chap
Know how to use it and fit it to the car - yes
Know how it works - no
Follow me?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
Well Martial, a few years ago McLaren and Mercedes were in a partnership so I'm sure they knew a bit about the V8's and V10's etc
Since May 2013 we've known McLaren were joining Honda and since 2010 Mercedes has had it's own team so didn't need this partnership. Thus McLaren and Mercedes weren't exactly going to be the closest when they finally set their eyes on the new V6 PU.
You realise yes that the PU is far more than a engine these days, it's the whole package? Why would a 'user' need to know how the thing actually works, they just need to be able to use it. This is one of the reasons McLaren got out of bed with Mercedes, keep up to date with current affairs chap
Know how to use it and fit it to the car - yes
Know how it works - no
Follow me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh i see where you are coming from
so over the years mclaren have known how all there other engines have worked in there respective cars since there arrival in F1 48 yrs ago or whatever it is -
but in the one solitary year of 2014 they dont have the foggiest idea
------------ but in the last 47 years they did -
------------------ gotcha
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