Time will tell how much this season has damaged Vettels image. If he goes on to beat Kimi and put in some cracking performances in the Ferrari all will be forgiven.
Some drivers have adapted better than others this season, the cream will however always rise to the top
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
Time will tell how much this season has damaged Vettels image. If he goes on to beat Kimi and put in some cracking performances in the Ferrari all will be forgiven.
Some drivers have adapted better than others this season, the cream will however always rise to the top
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh thats a good shout nsix -- only a complete mor/on judges a driver on one mediocre season alone -
must admit if vettel still cannot properly adapt his style around the new format next year then questions have to be asked about his versatility and his confidence -
The problem for Vettel is that he's made it hard for him to be judged, not that he'll care. Through his 4 titles no team could really sustain a fight to him. He needs a good season next year and his performances against Kimi will inevitably be compared to Alonso destroying Kimi this year. Almost a lose-lose situation.
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 43 seconds ago
The problem for Vettel is that he's made it hard for him to be judged, not that he'll care. Through his 4 titles no team could really sustain a fight to him. He needs a good season next year and his performances against Kimi will inevitably be compared to Alonso destroying Kimi this year. Almost a lose-lose situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh next season will tell us alot about vettel ,all kimi raikk problems were all about front end grip and getting the tyres to bite to his liking this year which i would imagine he and ferrari will address next year ,
must admit if the german does not at least match KR next year then his street cred will take a bit of a hit --
Vettel has always been mediocre, only those who are not discerning thought he was something special. The redbull cars could have had similar dominance as the mercs, they jst had mediocre drivers.
When Seb was unable to get away from the start, he generally was average. This season just laid it ot clearly
Mugen-Honda have been racing Hybrid units in the CR-Z for a number of years. Whilst these units are not the same as those to be used in the 2015 MP4-30 F1 car, they use the same basic technologies and they would have been using the CR-Z unit to help their development of the new F1 unit.
Where is your evidence of Mclaren drip feeding information to Honda MA. I understand why you say that, but as I have said on other threads, neither Mclaren nor Honda would want to be caught cheating.
And the Japanese will have a certain amount of pride. They would want to develop a Mercedes bearing power unit on their own, not in an underhand cheating way.
See, sensible and adult discussion can be achieved here, so long as we all keep our heads.
Can't understand why it can't happen on all threads.
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 7 hours, 40 minutes ago
Mugen-Honda have been racing Hybrid units in the CR-Z for a number of years. Whilst these units are not the same as those to be used in the 2015 MP4-30 F1 car, they use the same basic technologies and they would have been using the CR-Z unit to help their development of the new F1 unit.
Where is your evidence of Mclaren drip feeding information to Honda MA. I understand why you say that, but as I have said on other threads, neither Mclaren nor Honda would want to be caught cheating.
And the Japanese will have a certain amount of pride. They would want to develop a Mercedes bearing power unit on their own, not in an underhand cheating way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
do you have any " evidence" that mclaren have not been drip feeding honda information about the merc donkey GC
-------------- i dont think pride or fair play even remotely enters into any team"s train of thought when the stakes are so massively high , F1 is a cut throat , ruthless win at all costs business , the mere fact that the teams will go to absolutely ridiculous lengths to copy each other"s aerodynamic designs if there is a lap time advantage in it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught --
Martial, 2 terms
Intellectual property
Confidentiality agreements.
Do you think Mercedes would have given McLaren engines without their IP being protected?
Come on lad, you cannot be this dense
"it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught"
Mclaren got caught last time because of a driver who fell out with them. A driver no less than the one we all expect to rejoin them next season. Heaven help them if they don't give him exactly what he wants, like #1 status and all the preferential treatment he thinks that deserves.
So tell me MA, why is there Zero chance of them being caught?
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 4 hours, 9 minutes ago
Martial, 2 terms
Intellectual property
Confidentiality agreements.
Do you think Mercedes would have given McLaren engines without their IP being protected?
Come on lad, you cannot be this dense
----------------------------------------------------------------------
fancy words manx that you probably wikipedia from somewhere ,
do you seriously think that with mclarens not to distant history of cheating , lying and deceiving on numerous occasions that they would not have given serious thought to feeding honda little snippets about the merc engine and mgu systems ,
not to mention after 6 yrs of winning nothing desperation must be starting to set in at mclaren
mclaren are not stupid enough to ever leave any record of what engine and systems they are actually communicating about so realistically how would merc or anybody else ever find out -
------- " come on lad you cannot be this dense "
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
"it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught"
Mclaren got caught last time because of a driver who fell out with them. A driver no less than the one we all expect to rejoin them next season. Heaven help them if they don't give him exactly what he wants, like #1 status and all the preferential treatment he thinks that deserves.
So tell me MA, why is there Zero chance of them being caught?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
not quite sure what alonso has got to do with anything when it is merc and honda engines we are talking about
there will never be any trace left of any communication from mclaren to honda about the merc power unit and mclaren and honda would never be stupid enough to leave any trace so realistically how can anybody short of the pentagon intelligence agency ever know of any communication whatever the subject matter --
Martial, I work in an industry where those words are common place. I appreciate it may be a challenge for you to understand so will try and make it simple.
The engine's Mercedes provide all teams have particular characteristics. They way they work, the power they generate and the power they distribute. The way the engine works is protected by patents. You cannot copy it because it can be easily traced and you can be easily sued.
The same thing with the software it will have code that can easily expose theft. You can of course glean information from it but the confidentiality agreements will be written in such a way that you cannot exploit it for commercial purposes. If you do, lawsuit. Very simple.
Which is why Ron reported Alonso and co for having Ferrari data. Again the data they had was regarding set up, not engine performance.
I know you do not know a lot about motorsport or engines or how they work but a Honda engine and a Mercedes engine have different characteristics. They are built to do different things. Even your bog standard engine on a lawnmower is built in different ways by manufacturers.
McLaren can give data to Honda about performance of the Mercedes engine, but when they do and it is exploited commercially they are in trouble.
I am sure after learning from their previous mistakes of having people like Alonso around, they will not let him try and do what he did in the past.
I hope it is slightly clearer now as it would be hard to simplify it further as clearly you do not have the brain power by your own admission to understand the intricacies of design engineering
So stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did not pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit has less credibility than stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit?
Squirm out of that one.
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
Martial, I work in an industry where those words are common place. I appreciate it may be a challenge for you to understand so will try and make it simple.
The engine's Mercedes provide all teams have particular characteristics. They way they work, the power they generate and the power they distribute. The way the engine works is protected by patents. You cannot copy it because it can be easily traced and you can be easily sued.
The same thing with the software it will have code that can easily expose theft. You can of course glean information from it but the confidentiality agreements will be written in such a way that you cannot exploit it for commercial purposes. If you do, lawsuit. Very simple.
Which is why Ron reported Alonso and co for having Ferrari data. Again the data they had was regarding set up, not engine performance.
I know you do not know a lot about motorsport or engines or how they work but a Honda engine and a Mercedes engine have different characteristics. They are built to do different things. Even your bog standard engine on a lawnmower is built in different ways by manufacturers.
McLaren can give data to Honda about performance of the Mercedes engine, but when they do and it is exploited commercially they are in trouble.
I am sure after learning from their previous mistakes of having people like Alonso around, they will not let him try and do what he did in the past.
I hope it is slightly clearer now as it would be hard to simplify it further as clearly you do not have the brain power by your own admission to understand the intricacies of design engineering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very colorful manx - but end of the day not a great deal of substance to any of it and i doubt if any of that twaddle is applicable if all we are talking about is communication which i am between mclaren and honda , (* note the word communication because it is relative and significant to the point i am making manx *)
like me you dont have the first clue about a formula one engine and like me you can only guess as to what does actually go on behind the scenes -
the point i am making is mclaren and honda are clever enough to completely eradicate any form of communication
*( note the word communication again ) *between themselves in which case they would be free to discuss the merc power unit in whatever detail they want and with the stakes so high in what has effectively become an engine formula i find it just about impossible to believe there has been no communication between mclaren and honda about the merc lump -
----------------- note the word communication again manx *
---------- communication of information is all i am talking about which would be easy to eradicate and impossible to trace
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
So stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did not pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit has less credibility than stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit?
Squirm out of that one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i have never said i have proof of any form of communication between mclaren and honda , why would i even pretend to have proof of any communication between mclaren and honda and how would i even know of any communication between mclaren and honda , when i am merely an insignificant person on a F1 forum giving an insignificant opinion that there has been communication between mclaren and honda
---------- never really thought i would have to explain syllable by syllable ABC fashion that it is only my uneducated opinion that there has been communication between mclaren and honda about the merc donkey -
cant really put my little mclaren and honda communication opinion any simpler than that for you,
--------are you completely clear on my communication on the point i am trying to communicate to you , communicate back to me if you need it ABC fashion again and i will communicate back to you again
Martial, communication is also protected by confidentiality agreements. I also understand formula 1 engines, how they work, how they are made, etc. I have cars as well, work on them too. I am also actively involved in motorsport and I'm a member of a variety of clubs. I also read information and have been known to indulge myself in races.
The fact you have limited knowledge is your problem, not mine. You have admitted to not knowing anything about F1 as you are not a designer. I am not thick, so can easily grasp these concepts you struggle with.
So let us summarise, you do not know what confidentiality means or intellectual property.
Communication of information can be proven and typically when confidentiality agreements are written this is also included.
It is unfortunate that once again you are engaging in a debate with someone who is so far out of your league it is almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
Quite pathetic really
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 3 minutes ago
Martial, communication is also protected by confidentiality agreements. I also understand formula 1 engines, how they work, how they are made, etc. I have cars as well, work on them too. I am also actively involved in motorsport and I'm a member of a variety of clubs. I also read information and have been known to indulge myself in races.
The fact you have limited knowledge is your problem, not mine. You have admitted to not knowing anything about F1 as you are not a designer. I am not thick, so can easily grasp these concepts you struggle with.
So let us summarise, you do not know what confidentiality means or intellectual property.
Communication of information can be proven and typically when confidentiality agreements are written this is also included.
It is unfortunate that once again you are engaging in a debate with someone who is so far out of your league it is almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
Quite pathetic really
----------------------------------------------------------------------
thats the beauty of the internet manx we can all pretend to be whatever we want to be on it and you tell us you know the fine details of maybe the most sophisticated power units the planet has ever seen -
--------------- and you seriously cant see how completely and utterly pathetic that actually sounds to others on here ?
again you use words about confidential agreements that you have just googled off the internet but is any of it relative when all we are talking about is communication *( and note the word communication*) between completely two anonymous people as it would be -
how do you think that anonymous communication between two anonymous people could ever be traced back to anybody --
----------- again i am talking about anonymous communication nothing else
Martial, anyone with a brain can clearly see I know what I am talking about because I have experience with stuff like this and need to be careful in my job and dealings with contractors we use as they have different products and we must keep their software/hardware separately or could expose ourselves to lawsuits.
Regarding your second point, it is very easy to prove that "anonymous information" can be passed on as I have stated above, when there is a commercial benefit. Mercedes can take Honda to court and under freedom of information can request data about their engines that appear to be similar to theirs.
Like I explained above, the IP can be investigated for infringement if there are any similarities. Any IP lawyer can explain this to you. When applying for a patent, you will have to prove you have not copied anyone and companies like Mercedes will have people employed to scour espacenet and sites like that as well as EU/UK patent sites to identify any IP.
So if said anonymous person gave said anonymous person data and it is incorporated into their engine, they can be caught and sued. Happens all the time.
With software, the coding included a trademark in some cases which can be easily identified when theft has occurred.
Apple and Samsung have been doing this dance for a while as well as has Schlumberger and Halliburton.
Like I said, you are out of your league here my good man.
Why do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?
I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like.
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 8 minutes ago
Martial, anyone with a brain can clearly see I know what I am talking about because I have experience with stuff like this and need to be careful in my job and dealings with contractors we use as they have different products and we must keep their software/hardware separately or could expose ourselves to lawsuits.
Regarding your second point, it is very easy to prove that "anonymous information" can be passed on as I have stated above, when there is a commercial benefit. Mercedes can take Honda to court and under freedom of information can request data about their engines that appear to be similar to theirs.
Like I explained above, the IP can be investigated for infringement if there are any similarities. Any IP lawyer can explain this to you. When applying for a patent, you will have to prove you have not copied anyone and companies like Mercedes will have people employed to scour espacenet and sites like that as well as EU/UK patent sites to identify any IP.
So if said anonymous person gave said anonymous person data and it is incorporated into their engine, they can be caught and sued. Happens all the time.
With software, the coding included a trademark in some cases which can be easily identified when theft has occurred.
Apple and Samsung have been doing this dance for a while as well as has Schlumberger and Halliburton.
Like I said, you are out of your league here my good man.
Why do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh manx as i said we can all be anybody we like on the internet and attempt to bamboozle others with alot of wikipedia words that in reality dont actually mean very much --
---------- afraid to say i am not easily bamboozled by silly words that mean very little and by people that have never come across as very intelligent to begin with -
Again i am talking about anonymous communication between mclaren and honda
----------------- * note the words anonymous communication* because those words are core to our little disagreement -
you have not actually explained and neither can you how anybody would be able to detect anonymous communication between mclaren and honda after that anonymous communication had been eradicated off the face of the planet
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 14 minutes ago
I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
----------------------------------------------------------------------
that is probably a fair point nsix -
------------ all i have said is i find it impossible to believe that mclaren have not drip fed honda little snippets of information about the merc lump as they know that these snippets of anonymous communication can and will never be detected --
------------- with formula 1 now effectively an engine formula and the stakes so high for a very desperate mclaren to become competitive again very quickly i just find it totally impossible to believe that mclaren and honda have not exchanged some kind of information about the merc power unit no matter how small -
I have no doubt that McLaren have passed on information to Honda either, but at the end of the day that info is going to be fairly useless. If you want to reverse engineer something as complex as a hybrid power unit then looking at it from the outside is going to be of extremely limited use.
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RED BULL NOTHING WITHOUT VETTEL ?
Page 2 of 14
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 29/11/14
Time will tell how much this season has damaged Vettels image. If he goes on to beat Kimi and put in some cracking performances in the Ferrari all will be forgiven.
Some drivers have adapted better than others this season, the cream will however always rise to the top
posted on 29/11/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
Time will tell how much this season has damaged Vettels image. If he goes on to beat Kimi and put in some cracking performances in the Ferrari all will be forgiven.
Some drivers have adapted better than others this season, the cream will however always rise to the top
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh thats a good shout nsix -- only a complete mor/on judges a driver on one mediocre season alone -
must admit if vettel still cannot properly adapt his style around the new format next year then questions have to be asked about his versatility and his confidence -
posted on 29/11/14
The problem for Vettel is that he's made it hard for him to be judged, not that he'll care. Through his 4 titles no team could really sustain a fight to him. He needs a good season next year and his performances against Kimi will inevitably be compared to Alonso destroying Kimi this year. Almost a lose-lose situation.
posted on 29/11/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 43 seconds ago
The problem for Vettel is that he's made it hard for him to be judged, not that he'll care. Through his 4 titles no team could really sustain a fight to him. He needs a good season next year and his performances against Kimi will inevitably be compared to Alonso destroying Kimi this year. Almost a lose-lose situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh next season will tell us alot about vettel ,all kimi raikk problems were all about front end grip and getting the tyres to bite to his liking this year which i would imagine he and ferrari will address next year ,
must admit if the german does not at least match KR next year then his street cred will take a bit of a hit --
posted on 29/11/14
Vettel has always been mediocre, only those who are not discerning thought he was something special. The redbull cars could have had similar dominance as the mercs, they jst had mediocre drivers.
When Seb was unable to get away from the start, he generally was average. This season just laid it ot clearly
posted on 29/11/14
Mugen-Honda have been racing Hybrid units in the CR-Z for a number of years. Whilst these units are not the same as those to be used in the 2015 MP4-30 F1 car, they use the same basic technologies and they would have been using the CR-Z unit to help their development of the new F1 unit.
Where is your evidence of Mclaren drip feeding information to Honda MA. I understand why you say that, but as I have said on other threads, neither Mclaren nor Honda would want to be caught cheating.
And the Japanese will have a certain amount of pride. They would want to develop a Mercedes bearing power unit on their own, not in an underhand cheating way.
posted on 29/11/14
beating*
posted on 29/11/14
See, sensible and adult discussion can be achieved here, so long as we all keep our heads.
Can't understand why it can't happen on all threads.
posted on 30/11/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 7 hours, 40 minutes ago
Mugen-Honda have been racing Hybrid units in the CR-Z for a number of years. Whilst these units are not the same as those to be used in the 2015 MP4-30 F1 car, they use the same basic technologies and they would have been using the CR-Z unit to help their development of the new F1 unit.
Where is your evidence of Mclaren drip feeding information to Honda MA. I understand why you say that, but as I have said on other threads, neither Mclaren nor Honda would want to be caught cheating.
And the Japanese will have a certain amount of pride. They would want to develop a Mercedes bearing power unit on their own, not in an underhand cheating way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
do you have any " evidence" that mclaren have not been drip feeding honda information about the merc donkey GC
-------------- i dont think pride or fair play even remotely enters into any team"s train of thought when the stakes are so massively high , F1 is a cut throat , ruthless win at all costs business , the mere fact that the teams will go to absolutely ridiculous lengths to copy each other"s aerodynamic designs if there is a lap time advantage in it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught --
posted on 30/11/14
Martial, 2 terms
Intellectual property
Confidentiality agreements.
Do you think Mercedes would have given McLaren engines without their IP being protected?
Come on lad, you cannot be this dense
posted on 30/11/14
"it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught"
Mclaren got caught last time because of a driver who fell out with them. A driver no less than the one we all expect to rejoin them next season. Heaven help them if they don't give him exactly what he wants, like #1 status and all the preferential treatment he thinks that deserves.
So tell me MA, why is there Zero chance of them being caught?
posted on 30/11/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 4 hours, 9 minutes ago
Martial, 2 terms
Intellectual property
Confidentiality agreements.
Do you think Mercedes would have given McLaren engines without their IP being protected?
Come on lad, you cannot be this dense
----------------------------------------------------------------------
fancy words manx that you probably wikipedia from somewhere ,
do you seriously think that with mclarens not to distant history of cheating , lying and deceiving on numerous occasions that they would not have given serious thought to feeding honda little snippets about the merc engine and mgu systems ,
not to mention after 6 yrs of winning nothing desperation must be starting to set in at mclaren
mclaren are not stupid enough to ever leave any record of what engine and systems they are actually communicating about so realistically how would merc or anybody else ever find out -
------- " come on lad you cannot be this dense "
posted on 30/11/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 2 hours, 32 minutes ago
"it makes me believe that mclaren would not even give a 2nd thought to helping honda with anything they can about the the merc power unit when they know there is zero chance of ever being caught"
Mclaren got caught last time because of a driver who fell out with them. A driver no less than the one we all expect to rejoin them next season. Heaven help them if they don't give him exactly what he wants, like #1 status and all the preferential treatment he thinks that deserves.
So tell me MA, why is there Zero chance of them being caught?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
not quite sure what alonso has got to do with anything when it is merc and honda engines we are talking about
there will never be any trace left of any communication from mclaren to honda about the merc power unit and mclaren and honda would never be stupid enough to leave any trace so realistically how can anybody short of the pentagon intelligence agency ever know of any communication whatever the subject matter --
posted on 30/11/14
Martial, I work in an industry where those words are common place. I appreciate it may be a challenge for you to understand so will try and make it simple.
The engine's Mercedes provide all teams have particular characteristics. They way they work, the power they generate and the power they distribute. The way the engine works is protected by patents. You cannot copy it because it can be easily traced and you can be easily sued.
The same thing with the software it will have code that can easily expose theft. You can of course glean information from it but the confidentiality agreements will be written in such a way that you cannot exploit it for commercial purposes. If you do, lawsuit. Very simple.
Which is why Ron reported Alonso and co for having Ferrari data. Again the data they had was regarding set up, not engine performance.
I know you do not know a lot about motorsport or engines or how they work but a Honda engine and a Mercedes engine have different characteristics. They are built to do different things. Even your bog standard engine on a lawnmower is built in different ways by manufacturers.
McLaren can give data to Honda about performance of the Mercedes engine, but when they do and it is exploited commercially they are in trouble.
I am sure after learning from their previous mistakes of having people like Alonso around, they will not let him try and do what he did in the past.
I hope it is slightly clearer now as it would be hard to simplify it further as clearly you do not have the brain power by your own admission to understand the intricacies of design engineering
posted on 30/11/14
So stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did not pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit has less credibility than stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit?
Squirm out of that one.
posted on 30/11/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
Martial, I work in an industry where those words are common place. I appreciate it may be a challenge for you to understand so will try and make it simple.
The engine's Mercedes provide all teams have particular characteristics. They way they work, the power they generate and the power they distribute. The way the engine works is protected by patents. You cannot copy it because it can be easily traced and you can be easily sued.
The same thing with the software it will have code that can easily expose theft. You can of course glean information from it but the confidentiality agreements will be written in such a way that you cannot exploit it for commercial purposes. If you do, lawsuit. Very simple.
Which is why Ron reported Alonso and co for having Ferrari data. Again the data they had was regarding set up, not engine performance.
I know you do not know a lot about motorsport or engines or how they work but a Honda engine and a Mercedes engine have different characteristics. They are built to do different things. Even your bog standard engine on a lawnmower is built in different ways by manufacturers.
McLaren can give data to Honda about performance of the Mercedes engine, but when they do and it is exploited commercially they are in trouble.
I am sure after learning from their previous mistakes of having people like Alonso around, they will not let him try and do what he did in the past.
I hope it is slightly clearer now as it would be hard to simplify it further as clearly you do not have the brain power by your own admission to understand the intricacies of design engineering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
very colorful manx - but end of the day not a great deal of substance to any of it and i doubt if any of that twaddle is applicable if all we are talking about is communication which i am between mclaren and honda , (* note the word communication because it is relative and significant to the point i am making manx *)
like me you dont have the first clue about a formula one engine and like me you can only guess as to what does actually go on behind the scenes -
the point i am making is mclaren and honda are clever enough to completely eradicate any form of communication
*( note the word communication again ) *between themselves in which case they would be free to discuss the merc power unit in whatever detail they want and with the stakes so high in what has effectively become an engine formula i find it just about impossible to believe there has been no communication between mclaren and honda about the merc lump -
----------------- note the word communication again manx *
---------- communication of information is all i am talking about which would be easy to eradicate and impossible to trace
posted on 30/11/14
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 1 hour, 48 minutes ago
So stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did not pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit has less credibility than stating that you do not have proof that McLaren did pass information on to Honda about the Mercedes Power Unit?
Squirm out of that one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i have never said i have proof of any form of communication between mclaren and honda , why would i even pretend to have proof of any communication between mclaren and honda and how would i even know of any communication between mclaren and honda , when i am merely an insignificant person on a F1 forum giving an insignificant opinion that there has been communication between mclaren and honda
---------- never really thought i would have to explain syllable by syllable ABC fashion that it is only my uneducated opinion that there has been communication between mclaren and honda about the merc donkey -
cant really put my little mclaren and honda communication opinion any simpler than that for you,
--------are you completely clear on my communication on the point i am trying to communicate to you , communicate back to me if you need it ABC fashion again and i will communicate back to you again
posted on 30/11/14
Martial, communication is also protected by confidentiality agreements. I also understand formula 1 engines, how they work, how they are made, etc. I have cars as well, work on them too. I am also actively involved in motorsport and I'm a member of a variety of clubs. I also read information and have been known to indulge myself in races.
The fact you have limited knowledge is your problem, not mine. You have admitted to not knowing anything about F1 as you are not a designer. I am not thick, so can easily grasp these concepts you struggle with.
So let us summarise, you do not know what confidentiality means or intellectual property.
Communication of information can be proven and typically when confidentiality agreements are written this is also included.
It is unfortunate that once again you are engaging in a debate with someone who is so far out of your league it is almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
Quite pathetic really
posted on 30/11/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 3 minutes ago
Martial, communication is also protected by confidentiality agreements. I also understand formula 1 engines, how they work, how they are made, etc. I have cars as well, work on them too. I am also actively involved in motorsport and I'm a member of a variety of clubs. I also read information and have been known to indulge myself in races.
The fact you have limited knowledge is your problem, not mine. You have admitted to not knowing anything about F1 as you are not a designer. I am not thick, so can easily grasp these concepts you struggle with.
So let us summarise, you do not know what confidentiality means or intellectual property.
Communication of information can be proven and typically when confidentiality agreements are written this is also included.
It is unfortunate that once again you are engaging in a debate with someone who is so far out of your league it is almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
Quite pathetic really
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thats the beauty of the internet manx we can all pretend to be whatever we want to be on it and you tell us you know the fine details of maybe the most sophisticated power units the planet has ever seen -
--------------- and you seriously cant see how completely and utterly pathetic that actually sounds to others on here ?
again you use words about confidential agreements that you have just googled off the internet but is any of it relative when all we are talking about is communication *( and note the word communication*) between completely two anonymous people as it would be -
how do you think that anonymous communication between two anonymous people could ever be traced back to anybody --
----------- again i am talking about anonymous communication nothing else
posted on 30/11/14
Martial, anyone with a brain can clearly see I know what I am talking about because I have experience with stuff like this and need to be careful in my job and dealings with contractors we use as they have different products and we must keep their software/hardware separately or could expose ourselves to lawsuits.
Regarding your second point, it is very easy to prove that "anonymous information" can be passed on as I have stated above, when there is a commercial benefit. Mercedes can take Honda to court and under freedom of information can request data about their engines that appear to be similar to theirs.
Like I explained above, the IP can be investigated for infringement if there are any similarities. Any IP lawyer can explain this to you. When applying for a patent, you will have to prove you have not copied anyone and companies like Mercedes will have people employed to scour espacenet and sites like that as well as EU/UK patent sites to identify any IP.
So if said anonymous person gave said anonymous person data and it is incorporated into their engine, they can be caught and sued. Happens all the time.
With software, the coding included a trademark in some cases which can be easily identified when theft has occurred.
Apple and Samsung have been doing this dance for a while as well as has Schlumberger and Halliburton.
Like I said, you are out of your league here my good man.
Why do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?
posted on 30/11/14
I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
posted on 30/11/14
Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like.
posted on 30/11/14
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 8 minutes ago
Martial, anyone with a brain can clearly see I know what I am talking about because I have experience with stuff like this and need to be careful in my job and dealings with contractors we use as they have different products and we must keep their software/hardware separately or could expose ourselves to lawsuits.
Regarding your second point, it is very easy to prove that "anonymous information" can be passed on as I have stated above, when there is a commercial benefit. Mercedes can take Honda to court and under freedom of information can request data about their engines that appear to be similar to theirs.
Like I explained above, the IP can be investigated for infringement if there are any similarities. Any IP lawyer can explain this to you. When applying for a patent, you will have to prove you have not copied anyone and companies like Mercedes will have people employed to scour espacenet and sites like that as well as EU/UK patent sites to identify any IP.
So if said anonymous person gave said anonymous person data and it is incorporated into their engine, they can be caught and sued. Happens all the time.
With software, the coding included a trademark in some cases which can be easily identified when theft has occurred.
Apple and Samsung have been doing this dance for a while as well as has Schlumberger and Halliburton.
Like I said, you are out of your league here my good man.
Why do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?
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yeh manx as i said we can all be anybody we like on the internet and attempt to bamboozle others with alot of wikipedia words that in reality dont actually mean very much --
---------- afraid to say i am not easily bamboozled by silly words that mean very little and by people that have never come across as very intelligent to begin with -
Again i am talking about anonymous communication between mclaren and honda
----------------- * note the words anonymous communication* because those words are core to our little disagreement -
you have not actually explained and neither can you how anybody would be able to detect anonymous communication between mclaren and honda after that anonymous communication had been eradicated off the face of the planet
posted on 30/11/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 14 minutes ago
I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.
Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally
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that is probably a fair point nsix -
------------ all i have said is i find it impossible to believe that mclaren have not drip fed honda little snippets of information about the merc lump as they know that these snippets of anonymous communication can and will never be detected --
------------- with formula 1 now effectively an engine formula and the stakes so high for a very desperate mclaren to become competitive again very quickly i just find it totally impossible to believe that mclaren and honda have not exchanged some kind of information about the merc power unit no matter how small -
posted on 30/11/14
I have no doubt that McLaren have passed on information to Honda either, but at the end of the day that info is going to be fairly useless. If you want to reverse engineer something as complex as a hybrid power unit then looking at it from the outside is going to be of extremely limited use.
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