comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 26 minutes ago
I have no doubt that McLaren have passed on information to Honda either, but at the end of the day that info is going to be fairly useless. If you want to reverse engineer something as complex as a hybrid power unit then looking at it from the outside is going to be of extremely limited use.
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not quite sure why mclaren would pass on useless information to honda nsix , lets not forget this side of a rocket scientist we are talking about some of the most intelligent people on the planet -
the point being i suspect the passing of information has been taking place since honda and mclaren announced there partnership and the honda power unit has been an ongoing project for honda ever since they first announced that partnership --
McLaren can be as smart as they like but they're not smart enough to know what goes on inside a Mercedes engine. If Honda wanted that they'd be better off poaching a Mercedes PU engineer.
I'm agreeing that they are passing on info Martial, it's just McLaren don't get to see the inner working of the Mercedes PU or even the ECU management. All they know is what it looks like from the outside, which after a season of papping isn't all that much more that everyone else knows.
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 25 minutes ago
McLaren can be as smart as they like but they're not smart enough to know what goes on inside a Mercedes engine. If Honda wanted that they'd be better off poaching a Mercedes PU engineer.
I'm agreeing that they are passing on info Martial, it's just McLaren don't get to see the inner working of the Mercedes PU or even the ECU management. All they know is what it looks like from the outside, which after a season of papping isn't all that much more that everyone else knows.
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whatever mclaren do or do not know about the complete power unit systems and i would imagine they have alot of data on the thing i cant imagine whatever they pass on to honda is going to be of no use what so ever to honda
------------ or what is the point of actually passing it on in the first place --
Not sure how Much McLaren do know though. We know McLaren aren't privy to the 'source code', and it's not like they can open up the thing. Passing on information doesn't necessarily make it useful.
It's like opening up the bonnet on your car, having a look at the engine and then being expected to recreate it. You know what it should look like but have no idea how it precisely works beyond what is common knowledge.
Or an even simpler example, look at your watch on your wrist. You may know how watches essentially work but until you open it up and look inside you can't copy it. With these PU's it is of course far more complicated that a mechanical issue though
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 54 minutes ago
Not sure how Much McLaren do know though. We know McLaren aren't privy to the 'source code', and it's not like they can open up the thing. Passing on information doesn't necessarily make it useful.
It's like opening up the bonnet on your car, having a look at the engine and then being expected to recreate it. You know what it should look like but have no idea how it precisely works beyond what is common knowledge.
Or an even simpler example, look at your watch on your wrist. You may know how watches essentially work but until you open it up and look inside you can't copy it. With these PU's it is of course far more complicated that a mechanical issue though
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only mclaren and merc know exactly what mclaren do actually know about the merc donkey nsix -
needless to say working with the thing for nearly a year mclaren must have not to shabby a knowledge about the unit and all its systems -
would imagine some of that knowledge would have been of some use to honda -
Only Mercedes and McLaren know therefore we should listen to you about them knowing things. Hmmm, interesting argument
I'm not arguing about them passing on data, unfortunately they can't look inside the PU and can't look at the ECU so in reality theres not much they can say that isn't shown by various pictures
I feel I've already mentioned this a fair amount.
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
Only Mercedes and McLaren know therefore we should listen to you about them knowing things. Hmmm, interesting argument
I'm not arguing about them passing on data, unfortunately they can't look inside the PU and can't look at the ECU so in reality theres not much they can say that isn't shown by various pictures
I feel I've already mentioned this a fair amount.
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yeh i know exactly what you have said nsix , but unless you are saying that mclaren know nothing at all about the merc donkey and all its systems and have no data at all on anything relating to the merc donkey and all its systems which is just about impossible on both counts -
then by definition any little snippet of information that they can pass onto honda about said donkey and all its systems would very likely have been of some use to honda
Fair enough, I'm sure Honda we're very thankful to know what the PU looks like.
I'm sure that McLaren pairing with Honda being common knowledge since May 2013 had no baring on how Mercedes dealt with McLaren. Why would they do all they could to keep this a secret? Who know's, maybe you think Mercedes really are that charitable.
I'm sure something may have been helpful to Honda, but at the end of the day they would have been pretty far into their development before McLaren even got to see what the outside of the Mercedes PU looked like
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
Fair enough, I'm sure Honda we're very thankful to know what the PU looks like.
I'm sure that McLaren pairing with Honda being common knowledge since May 2013 had no baring on how Mercedes dealt with McLaren. Why would they do all they could to keep this a secret? Who know's, maybe you think Mercedes really are that charitable.
I'm sure something may have been helpful to Honda, but at the end of the day they would have been pretty far into their development before McLaren even got to see what the outside of the Mercedes PU looked like
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so you think the only thing that mclaren with all there knowledge of working with the power unit for over a year and the vast data they have accumulated not to mention the computer wizardry they have on there state of the art computers they have at there fingertips, the only worthwhile information that the incredibly intelligent people at mclaren could possibly offer to honda was what the outside casing of a power unit looks like -
------------- interesting train of thought
Seems that's where we stand then, you seem to have a rosier outlook on life. I disagree with your idea that Mercedes have happily allowed McLaren to copy them but if that's the vision you're set on then so be it.
Personally I believe that Mercedes have given McLaren the bare minimum this year. Why would they possibly need to know how the PU works? They just need to know how it fits to the chassis and that it doesn't get too hot. Yes they'll know how good an engine it is, but thats not going to help them copy it. Mercedes aren't going to be supplying them with in-depth data on the thing, just some parametres to keep the PU to. Unless you think Mercedes are idiots its a odd train of thought to assume they'd supply McLaren with info they can get no other way...
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 13 seconds ago
Seems that's where we stand then, you seem to have a rosier outlook on life. I disagree with your idea that Mercedes have happily allowed McLaren to copy them but if that's the vision you're set on then so be it.
Personally I believe that Mercedes have given McLaren the bare minimum this year. Why would they possibly need to know how the PU works? They just need to know how it fits to the chassis and that it doesn't get too hot. Yes they'll know how good an engine it is, but thats not going to help them copy it. Mercedes aren't going to be supplying them with in-depth data on the thing, just some parametres to keep the PU to. Unless you think Mercedes are idiots its a odd train of thought to assume they'd supply McLaren with info they can get no other way...
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fair enough then nsix -
------ as far as you are concerned all that mclaren can possibly offer honda with the vast amount of computer wizardry they have on some of the most sophisticated computers on the planet that are operated by some of the most intelligent brains in F1 is a pic or two of the outside casing of the merc PU after working with merc and said power unit for over a year -
---------------------- fair enough
What do you think they know?
They can't break the fia or Mercedes seals on the PU to see how it works. They can't look at the ecu and control electronics. They don't know the operating specs.
What do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 5 minutes ago
What do you think they know?
They can't break the fia or Mercedes seals on the PU to see how it works. They can't look at the ecu and control electronics. They don't know the operating specs.
What do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
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i dont know as i am not one of mclarens highly intelligent engineers that is an expert on the high powered state of the art computer wizardry they have at there fingertips as neither are any of us on here -
----- i just believe after working very closely with merc and the PU for over a year said highly intelligent engineers with said high powered state of the art computer wizardry can offer honda a little more than a little pic of the outside casing taken with a mobile phone
Thats not an answer martial. You obviously think they know something or are you just guessing.
If McLaren can't look at the ecu or control electronics what do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 4 minutes ago
Thats not an answer martial. You obviously think they know something or are you just guessing.
If McLaren can't look at the ecu or control electronics what do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
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how do you know what mclaren can and cannot look at nsix , with respect like me you dont have the first clue what mclaren are privy to when they work so closely with the merc engineers -
---- as i said i believe they have access to much more than a view of the outside casing of the merc donkey -
I know as I read. The Mercedes engineers know about the Mercedes PU. Not the McLaren engineers.
Again, what is it you think a computer wiz can gather from a sealed unit? I suppose I never checked, you understand sealed unit don't you?
This all boils down to the simple question. Why would Mercedes tell McLaren about the inner workings of their engine? Are you saying that the Mercedes boffins are idiots?
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 16 minutes ago
I know as I read. The Mercedes engineers know about the Mercedes PU. Not the McLaren engineers.
Again, what is it you think a computer wiz can gather from a sealed unit? I suppose I never checked, you understand sealed unit don't you?
This all boils down to the simple question. Why would Mercedes tell McLaren about the inner workings of their engine? Are you saying that the Mercedes boffins are idiots?
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you are asking me things i dont know or anybody else on here would know -
--------- i just happen to believe that after a year mclaren are privy to a little more than a little pic of the outside casing of a power unit --
you yourself have said you dont doubt mclaren have passed on merc data to honda , think it is safe to say that data contains a little more than what the outer shell of a PU looks like
et it do you?
You claimed that Mclaren had been passing on information to Honda about the Merc PSU.
All I asked for was your proof. To answer the question by asking me to provide proof they haven't is not an answer.
So read, digest and try to understand the following. It isn't proof of no information being passed on, just reasons why it probably didn't happen.
1. As I stated before, Honda/Mugen have been using a similar unit in another form of racing since before 2013 when the Mclaren deal was announced, albeit a different capacity. One of the reasons they quit and why Merc also threatened to was because non-hybrids were not the way their commercial division was going.
2. Do you really think that they made a decision in 2013 to re-enter F1 unless they ALREADY had an engine design on the board, based on the aforementioned Mugen design.
3. Would Mclaren have made their decision if Honda hadn't already got an engine designed and probably already built for them to use.
4. Honda can glean far more information from one of their own units than Mclaren could glean from a unit supplied by Merc on their behalf, so why bother. These could be pre-existing or actual F1 engines in a test cell.
5. The inner workings of the Merc PSU, gas flow models, precise stress level measurements at component levels etc. which as a man of your professed intellect would know is the sort of information that is needed by an engine designer, are NOT known to Mclaren, or any other customer.
6. Therefore what sort of information do you think could be passed on? Only external data such as torque and power curves, temperature mappings and fuel flow readings etc. The sort of data they can get from their own unit without any risk of them being caught, so why take that risk?
7. As MUDD said, copyright, intellectual and real protect the Merc design. Samsung and Apple have been arguing in courts all over the world at the cost of billions of dollars on similar issues. Silly things like look and feel of a smartphone. I'm sure the copying of the secret inner workings of a hybrid power unit would be far easier to prove, don't you?
8. Next year all that needs to happen is for an unguarded remark in earshot of a known informant, followed by that person not getting things their own way and bang, a repeat of 2007. You can just imagine it. "Oooh Jean Todt, Ron and his mates aren't being nice to me again, and guess what I heard someone say the other day?"
Now I have been reasoned and polite. I have not hurled any bile at you, nor claimed you to be a schoolgirl. Neither can you claim me to be gossiping.
You made a statement MA, now either prove you know something, or like I have just done give me some reasoned bullet points as to why they WOULD have cheated.
Or of course just admit you know diddly squat and are just making things up. Unfouned speculation.
Martial, oh martial, this is really tragic and unfortunate. It is clear to me that you do not understand what you read or can process information available to you. Anyone can google anything and post it here, it is not difficult.
However, the ability to explain it in lay terms shows an understanding of it. It is clear to me you are not the brightest so will try to simplify it further.
Typically during the sales of goods and services there is a contract, terms and conditions, terms of service, etc. When dealing with intellectual property there is usually a confidentiality agreement. This agreement protects the transmission of information, written or verbal.
You can pass as much "anonymous information/communication" along if you so choose, however when that "anonymous information/communication" is put into use or performance to seek a competitive advantage or a commercial advantage, you can be sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement or IP infringement.
For example, 2 employees from coke stole the formula and took it to pepsi, pepsi promptly called the FBI because if they had used that information to improve their drink, coke could have sued them.
Apple and Samsung have been suing each other all over the globe for their phones looking similar and having sliders. Considering anyone can buy either phone and break it down into its constituent parts you would think this was not easy to sue as you cannot prove where the infringement happened but they have both won suits, for and in their favour.
In addition to a confidentiality agreement, McLaren would have signed a contract with Mercedes about the "use of their engines." I would wager in that agreement if there are ways to improve performance found by McLaren, they would have to share it with Mercedes. To use the engines and the software and the data Mclaren would have guaranteed Mercedes they will use "reasonable" or "best" endeavours to ensure IP is not infringed or data transferred to another party who is not a named member of the agreement.
Knowing how these organisations work, I would not be surprised that Mercedes have already hired people to examine Honda's hybrid PU patent to see if there are any similarities. If there are, no matter how careful the "anonymous information/communication" was passed on, if it gets incorporated into the design of Honda's PU, Mercedes can and will sue both McLaren and Honda. McLaren for breach of contract and confidentiality and Honda for infringing their intellectual property rights.
They can deny it till the cows come home but if Mercedes can show how their designs were copied, it is a slam dunk. Honda are not stupid, McLaren are also not stupid and I have no doubts that there will be some data that has been shared to do with performance, ratios, fuel efficiency, power delivery, etc.
But the fundamentals, design parameters, characteristics, how the PU works, the internal systems, the general arrangement of the PU, materials used, if alloys were used, what alloys, how the mix was achieved, etc. will have been protected and Mercedes will watch happily to see if McLaren or Honda are that stupid to copy their IP.
I appreciate what I have put down may be too complex for you to understand, so I will try something simpler. You know vending machines, right? When you put money into one for a snack, you have formed an implicit contract with the vending machine to provide you with a snack, if it does not, you can actually sue the owner of the vending machine.
Regarding IP, remember when you were in school and were copying your friend's test answers with or without his knowledge (I suspect without his knowledge), you were stealing his IP. You may have been taught the same thing in class but his interpretation of what was studied in class is his intellectual property so to speak and when your answers are marked, even though the teacher did not see you copying his work, she can see clearly from your answers that you have information you gleaned from him and you will get punished in school.
Hopefully that clears it up, if it does not, I would not bother too much, you do not have the brain power for this sort of stuff.
Cheers
You're right Martial, Mercedes will have done the chartiable thing and told McLaren how their PU works. They may not need to know that info to run their car but why not tell them anyway
A guy with a computer could magically work it out anyway
The only people that can provide Honda with any useful information are the Mercedes engineers. McLaren engineers simply fit the complete unit into their car. They can not look inside the components or see the manufacturing process and McLaren do not have access to the source code. So can someone explain what exactly McLaren have actually “drip fed” to Honda? Maybe it helped them to run the 3 laps they achieved in post season testing.
The word on the street - whether through the paddock grapevine or via engineers who have switched camps and spilled the beans on what's really going on at Merc's power-unit HQ in Brixworth - is that the German make could be even further ahead next year than this.
Engineers suggest that Mercedes' energy recovery systems are not actually the best on the grid, so it knows it has plenty of room for improvement in that area during the window for developments this winter.
Furthermore, potentially bigger gains could come from its exhausts. The concept used by the German car manufacturer this year did not deliver maximum power and, because it has managed to make improvements elsewhere in terms of aerodynamic compromises and weight saving, it could unleash a better system in 2015 to lift its horsepower even more.
The way the sporting regulations have been set up provides Mercedes with a big list of development opportunities and they are expected to introduce a big upgrade for 2015 unleashing as much as 70bhp more than it has at the moment.
WTCBU, heard it is rumoured to be an additional 80bhp. In terms of engine performance alone. Without reliability Mercedes would have won 18 of 19 races this season. Next year, I am pretty sure these failures would be sorted out and with competent drivers like our double world champion and Nico Rosberg (criminally underrated), it could be over just after midseason
Mind you, one of their advantages was the splitting of the Turbo with the turbine at the back of the engine and the compressor at the front to help reduce the lag and also the need for so much intercooling.. Not sure if all the Merc powered cars used this concept but I would guess Renault Ferrari and Honda will try to copy that idea.
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 56 minutes ago
Mind you, one of their advantages was the splitting of the Turbo with the turbine at the back of the engine and the compressor at the front to help reduce the lag and also the need for so much intercooling.. Not sure if all the Merc powered cars used this concept but I would guess Renault Ferrari and Honda will try to copy that idea.
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Indeed but the car would need to be designed around this concept as well, as will the aero modules. I would prefer everyone was competitive but so far as Mercedes let their guys race, it should be fun
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posted on 30/11/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 26 minutes ago
I have no doubt that McLaren have passed on information to Honda either, but at the end of the day that info is going to be fairly useless. If you want to reverse engineer something as complex as a hybrid power unit then looking at it from the outside is going to be of extremely limited use.
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not quite sure why mclaren would pass on useless information to honda nsix , lets not forget this side of a rocket scientist we are talking about some of the most intelligent people on the planet -
the point being i suspect the passing of information has been taking place since honda and mclaren announced there partnership and the honda power unit has been an ongoing project for honda ever since they first announced that partnership --
posted on 30/11/14
McLaren can be as smart as they like but they're not smart enough to know what goes on inside a Mercedes engine. If Honda wanted that they'd be better off poaching a Mercedes PU engineer.
I'm agreeing that they are passing on info Martial, it's just McLaren don't get to see the inner working of the Mercedes PU or even the ECU management. All they know is what it looks like from the outside, which after a season of papping isn't all that much more that everyone else knows.
posted on 30/11/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 25 minutes ago
McLaren can be as smart as they like but they're not smart enough to know what goes on inside a Mercedes engine. If Honda wanted that they'd be better off poaching a Mercedes PU engineer.
I'm agreeing that they are passing on info Martial, it's just McLaren don't get to see the inner working of the Mercedes PU or even the ECU management. All they know is what it looks like from the outside, which after a season of papping isn't all that much more that everyone else knows.
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whatever mclaren do or do not know about the complete power unit systems and i would imagine they have alot of data on the thing i cant imagine whatever they pass on to honda is going to be of no use what so ever to honda
------------ or what is the point of actually passing it on in the first place --
posted on 30/11/14
Not sure how Much McLaren do know though. We know McLaren aren't privy to the 'source code', and it's not like they can open up the thing. Passing on information doesn't necessarily make it useful.
It's like opening up the bonnet on your car, having a look at the engine and then being expected to recreate it. You know what it should look like but have no idea how it precisely works beyond what is common knowledge.
Or an even simpler example, look at your watch on your wrist. You may know how watches essentially work but until you open it up and look inside you can't copy it. With these PU's it is of course far more complicated that a mechanical issue though
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 54 minutes ago
Not sure how Much McLaren do know though. We know McLaren aren't privy to the 'source code', and it's not like they can open up the thing. Passing on information doesn't necessarily make it useful.
It's like opening up the bonnet on your car, having a look at the engine and then being expected to recreate it. You know what it should look like but have no idea how it precisely works beyond what is common knowledge.
Or an even simpler example, look at your watch on your wrist. You may know how watches essentially work but until you open it up and look inside you can't copy it. With these PU's it is of course far more complicated that a mechanical issue though
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only mclaren and merc know exactly what mclaren do actually know about the merc donkey nsix -
needless to say working with the thing for nearly a year mclaren must have not to shabby a knowledge about the unit and all its systems -
would imagine some of that knowledge would have been of some use to honda -
posted on 1/12/14
Only Mercedes and McLaren know therefore we should listen to you about them knowing things. Hmmm, interesting argument
I'm not arguing about them passing on data, unfortunately they can't look inside the PU and can't look at the ECU so in reality theres not much they can say that isn't shown by various pictures
I feel I've already mentioned this a fair amount.
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
Only Mercedes and McLaren know therefore we should listen to you about them knowing things. Hmmm, interesting argument
I'm not arguing about them passing on data, unfortunately they can't look inside the PU and can't look at the ECU so in reality theres not much they can say that isn't shown by various pictures
I feel I've already mentioned this a fair amount.
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yeh i know exactly what you have said nsix , but unless you are saying that mclaren know nothing at all about the merc donkey and all its systems and have no data at all on anything relating to the merc donkey and all its systems which is just about impossible on both counts -
then by definition any little snippet of information that they can pass onto honda about said donkey and all its systems would very likely have been of some use to honda
posted on 1/12/14
Fair enough, I'm sure Honda we're very thankful to know what the PU looks like.
I'm sure that McLaren pairing with Honda being common knowledge since May 2013 had no baring on how Mercedes dealt with McLaren. Why would they do all they could to keep this a secret? Who know's, maybe you think Mercedes really are that charitable.
I'm sure something may have been helpful to Honda, but at the end of the day they would have been pretty far into their development before McLaren even got to see what the outside of the Mercedes PU looked like
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
Fair enough, I'm sure Honda we're very thankful to know what the PU looks like.
I'm sure that McLaren pairing with Honda being common knowledge since May 2013 had no baring on how Mercedes dealt with McLaren. Why would they do all they could to keep this a secret? Who know's, maybe you think Mercedes really are that charitable.
I'm sure something may have been helpful to Honda, but at the end of the day they would have been pretty far into their development before McLaren even got to see what the outside of the Mercedes PU looked like
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so you think the only thing that mclaren with all there knowledge of working with the power unit for over a year and the vast data they have accumulated not to mention the computer wizardry they have on there state of the art computers they have at there fingertips, the only worthwhile information that the incredibly intelligent people at mclaren could possibly offer to honda was what the outside casing of a power unit looks like -
------------- interesting train of thought
posted on 1/12/14
Seems that's where we stand then, you seem to have a rosier outlook on life. I disagree with your idea that Mercedes have happily allowed McLaren to copy them but if that's the vision you're set on then so be it.
Personally I believe that Mercedes have given McLaren the bare minimum this year. Why would they possibly need to know how the PU works? They just need to know how it fits to the chassis and that it doesn't get too hot. Yes they'll know how good an engine it is, but thats not going to help them copy it. Mercedes aren't going to be supplying them with in-depth data on the thing, just some parametres to keep the PU to. Unless you think Mercedes are idiots its a odd train of thought to assume they'd supply McLaren with info they can get no other way...
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 13 seconds ago
Seems that's where we stand then, you seem to have a rosier outlook on life. I disagree with your idea that Mercedes have happily allowed McLaren to copy them but if that's the vision you're set on then so be it.
Personally I believe that Mercedes have given McLaren the bare minimum this year. Why would they possibly need to know how the PU works? They just need to know how it fits to the chassis and that it doesn't get too hot. Yes they'll know how good an engine it is, but thats not going to help them copy it. Mercedes aren't going to be supplying them with in-depth data on the thing, just some parametres to keep the PU to. Unless you think Mercedes are idiots its a odd train of thought to assume they'd supply McLaren with info they can get no other way...
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fair enough then nsix -
------ as far as you are concerned all that mclaren can possibly offer honda with the vast amount of computer wizardry they have on some of the most sophisticated computers on the planet that are operated by some of the most intelligent brains in F1 is a pic or two of the outside casing of the merc PU after working with merc and said power unit for over a year -
---------------------- fair enough
posted on 1/12/14
What do you think they know?
They can't break the fia or Mercedes seals on the PU to see how it works. They can't look at the ecu and control electronics. They don't know the operating specs.
What do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 5 minutes ago
What do you think they know?
They can't break the fia or Mercedes seals on the PU to see how it works. They can't look at the ecu and control electronics. They don't know the operating specs.
What do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
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i dont know as i am not one of mclarens highly intelligent engineers that is an expert on the high powered state of the art computer wizardry they have at there fingertips as neither are any of us on here -
----- i just believe after working very closely with merc and the PU for over a year said highly intelligent engineers with said high powered state of the art computer wizardry can offer honda a little more than a little pic of the outside casing taken with a mobile phone
posted on 1/12/14
Thats not an answer martial. You obviously think they know something or are you just guessing.
If McLaren can't look at the ecu or control electronics what do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 4 minutes ago
Thats not an answer martial. You obviously think they know something or are you just guessing.
If McLaren can't look at the ecu or control electronics what do you think these computer folk can do exactly?
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how do you know what mclaren can and cannot look at nsix , with respect like me you dont have the first clue what mclaren are privy to when they work so closely with the merc engineers -
---- as i said i believe they have access to much more than a view of the outside casing of the merc donkey -
posted on 1/12/14
I know as I read. The Mercedes engineers know about the Mercedes PU. Not the McLaren engineers.
Again, what is it you think a computer wiz can gather from a sealed unit? I suppose I never checked, you understand sealed unit don't you?
This all boils down to the simple question. Why would Mercedes tell McLaren about the inner workings of their engine? Are you saying that the Mercedes boffins are idiots?
posted on 1/12/14
comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 16 minutes ago
I know as I read. The Mercedes engineers know about the Mercedes PU. Not the McLaren engineers.
Again, what is it you think a computer wiz can gather from a sealed unit? I suppose I never checked, you understand sealed unit don't you?
This all boils down to the simple question. Why would Mercedes tell McLaren about the inner workings of their engine? Are you saying that the Mercedes boffins are idiots?
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you are asking me things i dont know or anybody else on here would know -
--------- i just happen to believe that after a year mclaren are privy to a little more than a little pic of the outside casing of a power unit --
you yourself have said you dont doubt mclaren have passed on merc data to honda , think it is safe to say that data contains a little more than what the outer shell of a PU looks like
posted on 1/12/14
et it do you?
You claimed that Mclaren had been passing on information to Honda about the Merc PSU.
All I asked for was your proof. To answer the question by asking me to provide proof they haven't is not an answer.
So read, digest and try to understand the following. It isn't proof of no information being passed on, just reasons why it probably didn't happen.
1. As I stated before, Honda/Mugen have been using a similar unit in another form of racing since before 2013 when the Mclaren deal was announced, albeit a different capacity. One of the reasons they quit and why Merc also threatened to was because non-hybrids were not the way their commercial division was going.
2. Do you really think that they made a decision in 2013 to re-enter F1 unless they ALREADY had an engine design on the board, based on the aforementioned Mugen design.
3. Would Mclaren have made their decision if Honda hadn't already got an engine designed and probably already built for them to use.
4. Honda can glean far more information from one of their own units than Mclaren could glean from a unit supplied by Merc on their behalf, so why bother. These could be pre-existing or actual F1 engines in a test cell.
5. The inner workings of the Merc PSU, gas flow models, precise stress level measurements at component levels etc. which as a man of your professed intellect would know is the sort of information that is needed by an engine designer, are NOT known to Mclaren, or any other customer.
6. Therefore what sort of information do you think could be passed on? Only external data such as torque and power curves, temperature mappings and fuel flow readings etc. The sort of data they can get from their own unit without any risk of them being caught, so why take that risk?
7. As MUDD said, copyright, intellectual and real protect the Merc design. Samsung and Apple have been arguing in courts all over the world at the cost of billions of dollars on similar issues. Silly things like look and feel of a smartphone. I'm sure the copying of the secret inner workings of a hybrid power unit would be far easier to prove, don't you?
8. Next year all that needs to happen is for an unguarded remark in earshot of a known informant, followed by that person not getting things their own way and bang, a repeat of 2007. You can just imagine it. "Oooh Jean Todt, Ron and his mates aren't being nice to me again, and guess what I heard someone say the other day?"
Now I have been reasoned and polite. I have not hurled any bile at you, nor claimed you to be a schoolgirl. Neither can you claim me to be gossiping.
You made a statement MA, now either prove you know something, or like I have just done give me some reasoned bullet points as to why they WOULD have cheated.
Or of course just admit you know diddly squat and are just making things up. Unfouned speculation.
posted on 1/12/14
Martial, oh martial, this is really tragic and unfortunate. It is clear to me that you do not understand what you read or can process information available to you. Anyone can google anything and post it here, it is not difficult.
However, the ability to explain it in lay terms shows an understanding of it. It is clear to me you are not the brightest so will try to simplify it further.
Typically during the sales of goods and services there is a contract, terms and conditions, terms of service, etc. When dealing with intellectual property there is usually a confidentiality agreement. This agreement protects the transmission of information, written or verbal.
You can pass as much "anonymous information/communication" along if you so choose, however when that "anonymous information/communication" is put into use or performance to seek a competitive advantage or a commercial advantage, you can be sued for breaking a confidentiality agreement or IP infringement.
For example, 2 employees from coke stole the formula and took it to pepsi, pepsi promptly called the FBI because if they had used that information to improve their drink, coke could have sued them.
Apple and Samsung have been suing each other all over the globe for their phones looking similar and having sliders. Considering anyone can buy either phone and break it down into its constituent parts you would think this was not easy to sue as you cannot prove where the infringement happened but they have both won suits, for and in their favour.
In addition to a confidentiality agreement, McLaren would have signed a contract with Mercedes about the "use of their engines." I would wager in that agreement if there are ways to improve performance found by McLaren, they would have to share it with Mercedes. To use the engines and the software and the data Mclaren would have guaranteed Mercedes they will use "reasonable" or "best" endeavours to ensure IP is not infringed or data transferred to another party who is not a named member of the agreement.
Knowing how these organisations work, I would not be surprised that Mercedes have already hired people to examine Honda's hybrid PU patent to see if there are any similarities. If there are, no matter how careful the "anonymous information/communication" was passed on, if it gets incorporated into the design of Honda's PU, Mercedes can and will sue both McLaren and Honda. McLaren for breach of contract and confidentiality and Honda for infringing their intellectual property rights.
They can deny it till the cows come home but if Mercedes can show how their designs were copied, it is a slam dunk. Honda are not stupid, McLaren are also not stupid and I have no doubts that there will be some data that has been shared to do with performance, ratios, fuel efficiency, power delivery, etc.
But the fundamentals, design parameters, characteristics, how the PU works, the internal systems, the general arrangement of the PU, materials used, if alloys were used, what alloys, how the mix was achieved, etc. will have been protected and Mercedes will watch happily to see if McLaren or Honda are that stupid to copy their IP.
I appreciate what I have put down may be too complex for you to understand, so I will try something simpler. You know vending machines, right? When you put money into one for a snack, you have formed an implicit contract with the vending machine to provide you with a snack, if it does not, you can actually sue the owner of the vending machine.
Regarding IP, remember when you were in school and were copying your friend's test answers with or without his knowledge (I suspect without his knowledge), you were stealing his IP. You may have been taught the same thing in class but his interpretation of what was studied in class is his intellectual property so to speak and when your answers are marked, even though the teacher did not see you copying his work, she can see clearly from your answers that you have information you gleaned from him and you will get punished in school.
Hopefully that clears it up, if it does not, I would not bother too much, you do not have the brain power for this sort of stuff.
Cheers
posted on 1/12/14
You're right Martial, Mercedes will have done the chartiable thing and told McLaren how their PU works. They may not need to know that info to run their car but why not tell them anyway
A guy with a computer could magically work it out anyway
posted on 1/12/14
The only people that can provide Honda with any useful information are the Mercedes engineers. McLaren engineers simply fit the complete unit into their car. They can not look inside the components or see the manufacturing process and McLaren do not have access to the source code. So can someone explain what exactly McLaren have actually “drip fed” to Honda? Maybe it helped them to run the 3 laps they achieved in post season testing.
The word on the street - whether through the paddock grapevine or via engineers who have switched camps and spilled the beans on what's really going on at Merc's power-unit HQ in Brixworth - is that the German make could be even further ahead next year than this.
Engineers suggest that Mercedes' energy recovery systems are not actually the best on the grid, so it knows it has plenty of room for improvement in that area during the window for developments this winter.
Furthermore, potentially bigger gains could come from its exhausts. The concept used by the German car manufacturer this year did not deliver maximum power and, because it has managed to make improvements elsewhere in terms of aerodynamic compromises and weight saving, it could unleash a better system in 2015 to lift its horsepower even more.
The way the sporting regulations have been set up provides Mercedes with a big list of development opportunities and they are expected to introduce a big upgrade for 2015 unleashing as much as 70bhp more than it has at the moment.
posted on 1/12/14
WTCBU, heard it is rumoured to be an additional 80bhp. In terms of engine performance alone. Without reliability Mercedes would have won 18 of 19 races this season. Next year, I am pretty sure these failures would be sorted out and with competent drivers like our double world champion and Nico Rosberg (criminally underrated), it could be over just after midseason
posted on 1/12/14
Mind you, one of their advantages was the splitting of the Turbo with the turbine at the back of the engine and the compressor at the front to help reduce the lag and also the need for so much intercooling.. Not sure if all the Merc powered cars used this concept but I would guess Renault Ferrari and Honda will try to copy that idea.
posted on 1/12/14
comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 56 minutes ago
Mind you, one of their advantages was the splitting of the Turbo with the turbine at the back of the engine and the compressor at the front to help reduce the lag and also the need for so much intercooling.. Not sure if all the Merc powered cars used this concept but I would guess Renault Ferrari and Honda will try to copy that idea.
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Indeed but the car would need to be designed around this concept as well, as will the aero modules. I would prefer everyone was competitive but so far as Mercedes let their guys race, it should be fun
posted on 1/12/14
Bump, bump, bump
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