Well I guess it depends on situation, it's not something you can really generalise Martial. McLaren have had close partnerships with engine manufacturers and then not so close. You're trying to fit a simple answer to something thats not simple sorry

They probably knew more when they were in partnership with Mercedes as they were working on the engine together. Now McLaren are going off to Honda so Mercedes aren't exactly going to say "hey, want to see some in depth data on our PU"

Think about it logically, where's the logic with working closely with a team thats going off to Honda? Wheres the logic in working closely with a competitor when you have your own team?

Why do you think McLaren are even leaving Mercedes

get it?

comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 35 minutes ago
MA you said
----- again note the word communication

Let me remind you of your first mention of Mclaren passing information to Honda in this thread.

comment by martial artist (U9033)

posted 2 days, 2 hours ago

Blah, blah blah........

on the plus side to that i would imagine that mclaren ( despite them probably saying otherwise ) would have drip fed honda as much in depth information on the merc donkey as was humanely possible with given the computer wizardry they have at there fingertips i would imagine was fairly substantial -

You weren't just saying communication were you? Or was this just tongue in cheek like so many other posts turn out to be when you realise you lost the argument?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

so you split hairs over minutiae over something that none of us are sure of the quantity of information that may have been passed

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 54 seconds ago
Well I guess it depends on situation, it's not something you can really generalise Martial. McLaren have had close partnerships with engine manufacturers and then not so close. You're trying to fit a simple answer to something thats not simple sorry

They probably knew more when they were in partnership with Mercedes as they were working on the engine together. Now McLaren are going off to Honda so Mercedes aren't exactly going to say "hey, want to see some in depth data on our PU"

Think about it logically, where's the logic with working closely with a team thats going off to Honda? Wheres the logic in working closely with a competitor when you have your own team?

Why do you think McLaren are even leaving Mercedes

get it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

oh i see what you are saying now -

so mclaren did have knowledge of the merc PU but not as much as they have had in the other 47 years of working with other engine manufactures -
----------------- gotcha

Nope, try reading that again

Where did I even get close to suggesting that, what did you just read Martial

Mercedes aren't mugs, they would have told McLaren a grand total of zilch about how their PU works. McLaren simply don't need to know so Mercedes are obviously going to protect their creation. They are rivals these day.

comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 2 hours, 51 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 27 minutes ago
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
----------------------------------------------------------------------

yeh i read it manx -- but it had zero relation to my initial point about communication -
-------------- again note the word communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You poor simpleton, communication can be verbal or written.

Confidentiality agreements cover written and verbal communications.

You did not read or understand my post as I tried to make IP and CA simple for you to understand especially the use of IP and confidential info.

You really are thick as pigshít

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 15 minutes ago
Nope, try reading that again

Where did I even get close to suggesting that, what did you just read Martial

Mercedes aren't mugs, they would have told McLaren a grand total of zilch about how their PU works. McLaren simply don't need to know so Mercedes are obviously going to protect their creation. They are rivals these day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

oh i see -

so all the other engine manufactures that mclaren have worked with in the last 47 yrs mclaren have known how the engine works and how to fit it into the other systems on the respective cars because they have worked with the respective engine manufacturers -

--------------------------- but in the one solitary year of 2014 mclaren didnt have the first foggiest clue or idea because merc would not work with mclaren
------------------------ gotcha

So you agree with me then that McLaren don't know how the Mercedes PU actually works then? Well it took a while but I'm glad to have you onboard

As for the rest of whatever you've just typed? What? Not sure I'd agree with that, where did you get that idea from? Trying to generalise a whole 47 years as well... interesting move

comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 2 hours, 51 minutes ago
comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire(U9612)
posted 27 minutes ago
Do you actually read posts? I would suggest you read mine again. You clearly do not understand it
----------------------------------------------------------------------

yeh i read it manx -- but it had zero relation to my initial point about communication -
-------------- again note the word communication
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You poor simpleton, communication can be verbal or written.

Confidentiality agreements cover written and verbal communications.

You did not read or understand my post as I tried to make IP and CA simple for you to understand especially the use of IP and confidential info.

You really are thick as pigshít
----------------------------------------------------------------------

dont have a another little childish tantrum manx -

--- i dont need to read your longwinded twaddle that you googled to reach the opinion that i believe mclaren have communicated with honda about the merc PU -
------------ note the word communicated

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 46 seconds ago
So you agree with me then that McLaren don't know how the Mercedes PU actually works then? Well it took a while but I'm glad to have you onboard

As for the rest of whatever you've just typed? What? Not sure I'd agree with that, where did you get that idea from? Trying to generalise a whole 47 years as well... interesting move
----------------------------------------------------------------------

its you who is saying that mclaren dont have any knowledge of the merc PU not me nsix -

yeh --- who knows about the other 47 yrs of mclarens F1 history
--------------- maybe it was just during 2014 and 2014 alone that nobody told mclaren anything about the engine but the other 47 yrs they did

I have no idea what you are arguing now Martial, I assume another desperate ploy to change the subject? Bit of a (to use your words) cowardly move

I'm not about to debate year by year through McLarens engine partnerships, I've never made any suggestions about them and have no intention to debate this imaginary point.

So make your mind up, Why do you think Mercedes would let McLaren know the inner workings of their PU when they are a competitor who is leaving to a different PU manufacturer?

Answer me that, say on course and stop the silly subject changing games hey

MA, of course Mclaren know how an engine and energy recovery systems work. They make their own engines for their road cars.

But they will NOT know the materials used, the way stress on components is dealt with, how gas flow within the engine is managed. Just a slight change in the profile of the top of a piston, or the shape of the inlet or exhaust ducting in the cylinder heads can make a massive difference to the efficiency of the engine. Have you never heard of gas flowed cylinder heads etc.
So unless they strip down and precisely measure and analyse each component, and then enter that information into a suitably high powered computer or build an exact copy they really DON'T know how it works. And that is just the engine.
So as most of us have said, even IF Mclaren passed ANY information to Honda, it would be pretty useless as they can get more information from the engine they already had running in the CRZ and the ones they already had on test beds throughout the year. Or did you think maybe the engine they strapped to the back of the MP4-29 after Abu Dhabi they put together a couple of weeks ago.
Let me make this REALLY easy.
Honda are a large car manufacturer.
They are in the business of making engines.
They have created and raced high performance engines in numerous racing formulae.
They already have Hybrid engines and probably had them before Mercedes.
They have been racing hybrid units for years.
They can get ALL the data they need from their own engines.
They DO NOT need, I repeat DO NOT need to get embroiled in a spying / cheating scandal before they start.
It really isn't rocket science.

comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 5 minutes ago
MA, of course Mclaren know how an engine and energy recovery systems work. They make their own engines for their road cars.

But they will NOT know the materials used, the way stress on components is dealt with, how gas flow within the engine is managed. Just a slight change in the profile of the top of a piston, or the shape of the inlet or exhaust ducting in the cylinder heads can make a massive difference to the efficiency of the engine. Have you never heard of gas flowed cylinder heads etc.
So unless they strip down and precisely measure and analyse each component, and then enter that information into a suitably high powered computer or build an exact copy they really DON'T know how it works. And that is just the engine.
So as most of us have said, even IF Mclaren passed ANY information to Honda, it would be pretty useless as they can get more information from the engine they already had running in the CRZ and the ones they already had on test beds throughout the year. Or did you think maybe the engine they strapped to the back of the MP4-29 after Abu Dhabi they put together a couple of weeks ago.
Let me make this REALLY easy.
Honda are a large car manufacturer.
They are in the business of making engines.
They have created and raced high performance engines in numerous racing formulae.
They already have Hybrid engines and probably had them before Mercedes.
They have been racing hybrid units for years.
They can get ALL the data they need from their own engines.
They DO NOT need, I repeat DO NOT need to get embroiled in a spying / cheating scandal before they start.
It really isn't rocket science.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

GC ------------- i have never said mclaren have the same expertise with the merc PU as merc have -

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have communicated to honda about the merc PU for the mutual benefit of both mclaren and honda -

------------- it really is that simple

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 13 minutes ago
I have no idea what you are arguing now Martial, I assume another desperate ploy to change the subject? Bit of a (to use your words) cowardly move

I'm not about to debate year by year through McLarens engine partnerships, I've never made any suggestions about them and have no intention to debate this imaginary point.

So make your mind up, Why do you think Mercedes would let McLaren know the inner workings of their PU when they are a competitor who is leaving to a different PU manufacturer?

Answer me that, say on course and stop the silly subject changing games hey
----------------------------------------------------------------------

so now you magically dont know what we have been debating about for the last 3 hours -

i have never said anything about the " inner workings " of the PU it is you that is saying that when you cant think of anything else to say -

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU

Sigh, want me to start quoting you again martial? That got you to end the silly game last time I suppose

All I have ever said from the very start is that McLaren will know next to nothing about how Mercedes PU actually works. I said this because Mercedes aren't idiots and so wouldn't go telling a rival things they simply didn't need to know.

You either agree with me or you don't. Simple as, this is the sole point I have argued from the start

So which is it? Agree or disagree with me?

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
Sigh, want me to start quoting you again martial? That got you to end the silly game last time I suppose

All I have ever said from the very start is that McLaren will know next to nothing about how Mercedes PU actually works. I said this because Mercedes aren't idiots and so wouldn't go telling a rival things they simply didn't need to know.

You either agree with me or you don't. Simple as, this is the sole point I have argued from the start

So which is it? Agree or disagree with me?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

you are starting to sound desperate nsix as you always end up sounding when you cant beat me -

i dont have to " agree " or " disagree" with you nsix -

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the merc PU

----------- which is a reasonable assumption when mclaren use the merc PU

"all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have communicated to honda about the merc PU for the mutual benefit of both mclaren and honda -

------------- it really is that simple"

So what sort of information do you think Mclaren have communicated to Honda?
You have to give us something to work on here.
So far you have claimed two different levels of information.
Did they "drip feed as much information as they could" or just "communicated information", again what does the latter mean?

More dodging I see Martial, I'm disappointed, I thought we were having a good debate but in fact you were simply randomly making it up as you went along!

You've been disagreeing with me all through this and I've only ever had one point so it brings us round to the an interesting question. Were you disagreeing with me as you thought I was wrong, or did you simply not understand the subject matter?

Why not go back a little and look at your statements,

---
"doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now"
---

Do you perhaps still stand by that? Try to stay away from the jibberish as well, we're talking about your own words here

All this from my simple statement that McLaren wouldn't be privy to how the Mercedes PU actually works

It truly is amazing how dense martial is. Go cell, you must have googled that twaddle, nobody knows about stuff like that

comment by go-cellino-go (U6730)
posted 6 minutes ago
"all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have communicated to honda about the merc PU for the mutual benefit of both mclaren and honda -

------------- it really is that simple"

So what sort of information do you think Mclaren have communicated to Honda?
You have to give us something to work on here.
So far you have claimed two different levels of information.
Did they "drip feed as much information as they could" or just "communicated information", again what does the latter mean?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

how do you possibly expect any of us to know what specific information they have exchanged when none of us here have the first clue about the PU -
----------- come on GC none of us work within F1 --

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 11 minutes ago
More dodging I see Martial, I'm disappointed, I thought we were having a good debate but in fact you were simply randomly making it up as you went along!

You've been disagreeing with me all through this and I've only ever had one point so it brings us round to the an interesting question. Were you disagreeing with me as you thought I was wrong, or did you simply not understand the subject matter?

Why not go back a little and look at your statements,

---
"doubt very much whether mercedes need to tell mclaren anything about how there PU works
----------- after a year of working close to mercedes and close to the PU i would imagine mclaren have a pretty good idea by now"
---

Do you perhaps still stand by that? Try to stay away from the jibberish as well, we're talking about your own words here

All this from my simple statement that McLaren wouldn't be privy to how the Mercedes PU actually works
----------------------------------------------------------------------

dear dear me nsix

another longwinded gettysburg address of pure desperation when you have lost

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the PU
-------------- nothing more ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- nothing less

No one has asked you to be specific. They have asked you to explain what you have posted.

comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago

dear dear me nsix

another longwinded gettysburg address of pure desperation when you have lost

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the PU
-------------- nothing more ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- nothing less

=======================================

Please specify what I have lost, are you saying the single point I've been debating is wrong?

Well you must be if you think I've lost. Which means you think Mercedes have been charitable and told McLaren all about their PU. Deary me, that is a fantasy would you live in

Want to dodge any more? Every dodge confirms my points you realise so be my guest

comment by M.U.D.D - Luke Shaw makes me throb with desire (U9612)
posted 11 minutes ago
It truly is amazing how dense martial is. Go cell, you must have googled that twaddle, nobody knows about stuff like that
----------------------------------------------------------------------

oh dear ---------- the usual insults when you cant get people to agree with you -
--------------- are you really an high powered oil executive with a brilliant portfolio that employs lots of people

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by martial artist (U9033)
posted 1 minute ago

dear dear me nsix

another longwinded gettysburg address of pure desperation when you have lost

all i have ever said is i believe mclaren have a reasonable knowledge of the PU
-------------- nothing more ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- nothing less

=======================================

Please specify what I have lost, are you saying the single point I've been debating is wrong?

Well you must be if you think I've lost. Which means you think Mercedes have been charitable and told McLaren all about their PU. Deary me, that is a fantasy would you live in

Want to dodge any more? Every dodge confirms my points you realise so be my guest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

reasonable knowledge of the PU
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------nothing more --------------------------------------------------------------------and ----------------------------------------------------------------------nothing less

Martial, I am not insulting you. My apologies if you think I am. I am just reacting to what you post. I generally call a spade a spade.