It's gone very quiet. Maybe he's gone back to read some of the earlier comments finally.

Sorry no serial WUM responses. Henry's cat you are actually debating with reason

I'm just picking up on a thread, its not a wind up just a debate

I firmly believe that Arsene has made a lot of errors in recent years and has used the stadium as a ready made excuse as to why the club can't compete. He sits smugly suggesting that because Arsenal have finished in the top 4 he's been performing wonders. That simply isn't true.

Even this season, find yourselves in a strong position in January, and what does he do....buys a crock! Clearly when the club is saying there is money to spend he's not actually going for it. He's not trying to actually complete and win...is he afraid of failure?

He's got his ready made excuse that the big boys have 'more money than us'. For him to play that card when he's had since 1996 to create the right structure for enough quality players to come through to offset any spending by any other club, it's just wrong.

9 years on.....how long do you give it? There is now talk of another contract. My suggestion would be that he at this stage takes a 50% pay cut with the other 50% been based on bonuses for actually winning trophies

Let's give it some more context. George Graham came to Arsenal, he was far more successful in winning trophies with players he actually brought through the ranks than Arsene. He successfully took on the big nasty boys that at the time were Liverpool.

He didn't make excuses, he didn't complain how the big boys had more money & power....he used the resources he had and made the most of them.

So I take it that we now have agreement

Arsene has not overachieved in any context by keeping Arsenal in the top 4?

I think I can safely say that if an article has reached over 500 comments, not only has agreement not been reached, but also that it's highly unlikely to.

Can we at least all agree upon that?

comment by Respectedabsolutetruth11 (U9573)
posted 19 minutes ago
So I take it that we now have agreement

Arsene has not overachieved in any context by keeping Arsenal in the top 4?


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Not sure anyone said he had 'over achieved', but if that's the case then, at the very least, Spurs and Liverpool have done even worse than I thought. Given the money spent by these two clubs, and several others, over the years the fact that Wenger has consistently kept Arsenal ahead of them means that all those clubs have done a REALLY bad job. Or Arsenal have done a good one.

Spurs and Liverpool have done even worse than I thought

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The thing is, both those clubs have had big changes in the board and management.

While Arsenal have had a constant there in the board and manager.

So despite the fact that Arsene has had since 1996 to create a structure of talent creation to offset any spending by anyone else, Spurs and Liverpool have done a really bad job because they spent more money 2004 onwards?

From our base line of 2004. Arsenal Champions, Liverpool 30 points behind them, Spurs 45 points behind them but never mind that, its not relevant

In that time since because they spent more money 'net' on players they should have not only closed the massive gap but actually beaten Arsenal who had the Championship winning squad of players already?

Also negating the fact that Liverpool have actually achieved more than Arsenal in that time by actually winning the CL, genuinely title challenging & winning other trophies.

There is no logic like Gooner logic is there...interesting.

I can look objectively at Liverpool and say they did a poor job on the football side of things between 2010 and 2013. So much so that we even told King Kenny his time was up, we made the necessary changes to take us forward. We learnt, we haven't accepted failure. Even now, top 4, wow....no. Just a stepping stone. We want to win stuff!

As Jose said. If he doesn't win anything in the 4 years of his contract he will leave London and never come back...we live in hope

I don't know about all this. I think there is an element of truth in what everyone has been saying (mostly).

I do think the Arsenal fans are sticking up for Wenger for the sake of it though. Wenger has made mistakes that, in my opinion, have really held Arsenal back. Losing players, not giving the older ones longer contracts and a failed youth policy and system (and it is a failure of a youth system in my opinion).

For all the NET spend figures (Arsene was once good at spotting unknown talent which is a lot harder now) they still had a massive wage bill, higher than most, and achieved nothing other than coming 3rd or 4th in the league mostly by the skin of their teeth.

The key part is now the future because if Liverpool do somehow, however unlikely, win the league before Arsenal or even come above them then Wenger will rightly look a failure.

This is based on your mis-guided assertion that Arsenal haven't challenged for anything in that time. Which is wrong. Someone could sit here and list all our near-misses, I can't be ársed - you probably won't read it, or dismiss it anyway.

Spurs and Liverpool spend is much higher 'gross', I did make that point (there was a link, with numbers and everything - duly ignored by your good self, natch) as you already made it clear that 'net spend' is not on the table - as then Arsenal would have about 17 teams 'ahead' of them, and not just 5.

"winning the CL, genuinely title challenging & winning other trophies."

The CL was a great win, no doubt, I watched the final in a little bar in Dubrovnik - awesome evening. Other than that you've won a league cup. That's it. Your statement is presumably an example of you 'objectivity' regarding Liverpool. Liverpool have been no more been 'genuine title contenders' than Arsenal, probably less so in fact.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

"I do think the Arsenal fans are sticking up for Wenger for the sake of it though. Wenger has made mistakes that, in my opinion, have really held Arsenal back."

I do think that if you read the comments, you'd see no-one blinding sticking up for Wenger and pretty much all Arsenal fans on this thread pointing out his mistakes. Jeezus guys, open both eyes when reading.

comment by Greatteamswinit4times (U6008)
posted 1 minute ago
I don't think anyone can dispute that Wenger has overachieved based on what he has spent and the players he has lost. My whole issue with him is that he has had the option to spend significant funds for the good of the club and he hasn't done so based on a stubbornness he has to do things the 'right way'. That isn't his decision to make, Arsenal have money made from doing things the 'right way', he has hurt your club by not bringing in players. His excuse of not wanting to 'kill' young players is outrageous. His job isn't to protect the feelings of certain players, it is to win things.

That is my issue with Wenger.
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Agreed. It's pretty much what I wrote earlier, I think Serial or Lex wrote something similar. But these fruit loops didn't notice that.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Greatteamswinit4times (U6008)
posted 4 minutes ago
I'm only ducking in and out of this article so haven't read all the comments, apologies if I'm repeating what has been said.
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I realise that , it's why I said "these" fruit loops. Absolute has been here the whole time, and seemingly hardly read a thing anyone's written. Just coming back with his passive-aggressive witty put downs.

Helps the day pass quicker, I guess.

But Henry's cat....all some ever throw out is spending figures, that's it. The sole reason for everything!

It's not true though is it in truth. It's not all about spending. If it was Chelsea would have won everything 2005 - 2011. City since.

Again, in 2004 Arsenal were the 'Champions'. Liverpool were 30 points behind and Spurs 45 points behind. The clubs were no where near the same level. Subsequently spending more money on players to try and bridge that huge gap is a factor yes but these clubs were playing catch up!

Couple this to the fact that again, no one is 'mentioning' this. Arsene has had since 1996 opportunity to put a structure in place to offset the need to spend large sums of money on players. Look at what Barcelona have done with their youth system...

And I'll give you near misses. A CL defeat to Barcelona, a League Cup loss to Birmingham City. CL semi defeats to United & QF to Liverpool. In truth when the opportunity has been there. Every single time they have found a way to lose it!

I made a point previously as well about United. Arsenal were the last champions before Chelsea won there title in 2005. SAF didn't sit back and complain about financial doping and say how he couldn't compete. He took them on, he rebuilt and won trophy after trophy against the spending power of Chelsea and then City. He didn't moan about it!

Arsenal had the team, the squad...no massive rebuilding job. Instead Arsene started been clever didn't he. No Robert, you must accept a one year deal - this is Arsenal, no oh, OK now I need to spend £10 million on Hleb to replace you. Not as good but never mind!

Matieu, you want another £10K a week - non! In the meantime Arsene is been paid what £7/8 million a year.

Overall not very strong management. Based on the evidence Arsene has done the bare minimum to keep Arsenal in the top 4. The idea that Spurs or Liverpool should suddenly have improved so much more because they spent more is a nonsense!

To repeat, my main point is that Arsene has done the bare minimum in keeping the club in the top 4. Nothing more

His reward should not be a new long term contract and lets be honest, looking at some of the decisions you can argue he is now holding the club back...shame!

The CL was a great win, no doubt, I watched the final in a little bar in Dubrovnik - awesome evening. Other than that you've won a league cup. That's it. Your statement is presumably an example of you 'objectivity' regarding Liverpool. Liverpool have been no more been 'genuine title contenders' than Arsenal, probably less so in fact.
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Well no actually we've also won an FA cup and been to various other finals. We also came 2nd in the league with 86 points. Arsenal have not done any of that. They got to a couple of finals and failed both.

"Overall not very strong management."

Or very strong, and principled, management. Depends how you want to spin it.

Here's what I wrote earlier; if you're going 'round in circles, I'm not typing it in again:

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For me Wenger's big mistake was showing too much faith in youth and giving them too long a contracts. When they didn't turn out to be the world beaters he hoped for we were stuck with an expensive, underachieving squad we couldn't afford to replace quickly. It was a gamble, but didn't work out. But, having made that decision and failed to achieve the 'best case', he still achieved the minimum that the board could stomach - so no great disaster, no massive loss, despite what you would have everyone believe.

Some great sage once said, "You won't win anything with kids", well turns out he was probably right. Ho-hum, ever onwards.
--

Btw, an extra £10k a week is just over half a million a year - quite lot really - and makes more sense next to your Wenger's £7/8 million per year comment.

"It's not true though is it in truth. It's not all about spending. If it was Chelsea would have won everything 2005 - 2011. City since."

Erm, they pretty much have - with ManU tagging in every so often.

You really have to stop taking tabloid reporting as gospel.

Robbing you can't make reasoned points with evidence to the Gooners

Clearly Spurs and Liverpool should for the reasons of spending more money have bridged a massive gap and outperformed Arsenal over the last 9 years....despite there been a strong argument that actually Liverpool have. They clearly did during Rafa's tenure

Come on Henry's cat

How is United winning 5 titles and the CL during this period them tagging onto Chelsea's tails

At least try to be sensible.

"Well no actually we've also won an FA cup and been to various other finals. We also came 2nd in the league with 86 points. Arsenal have not done any of that. They got to a couple of finals and failed both."

Seriously read this back, apart from the FA Cup win (which I actually forgot about, apologies), you're saying nothing - you even contradict yourself.

Let me tell you a tale of two clubs.

One club opened a new 60,000 seater stadium in 2006. Since then they have not won a single trophy. Since then they have the highest prices in the country, if not Europe, for match day tickets and season tickets. They've regularly sold their best players, and very rarely, until last summer have they shopped in the highest bracket of players. Their excuse for not winning trophies, for selling players and for not buying players was the new stadium. This club is Arsenal.

The other club opened a new 69,000 seater stadium in 2005. Its an amazing stadium, you'd all recognise it straight away. The team who play in that new stadium have won the league 4 times since 2005 and also won the Champions League. Arguably the team is now the best in Europe. Their season ticket and match day prices are very, very reasonable considering they are one of the elite teams in Europe. This team is Bayern Munich.


Moral of this story (its like an Aesop's fable), is that Arsenal fans are gullible. Bayern have managed to build a brand new state of the art stadium and maintained their success and their tickets prices have not shot through the roof.

comment by Respectedabsolutetruth11 (U9573)
posted 1 minute ago
Come on Henry's cat

How is United winning 5 titles and the CL during this period them tagging onto Chelsea's tails

At least try to be sensible.
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Erm, what? What does "tagging onto Chelsea's tails" even mean? I said "with ManU tagging in", it's a reference to tag teams, where two people take turns. See, you just read what you want and make stuff up - and then make some stupid comment like:

"Robbing you can't make reasoned points with evidence to the Gooners"

Which, ironically, is the most accurate and honest thing you've written in pretty much the entire thread.

Bayern Munich are the envy of every club in Europe, probably the world - and on the list of every club in Europe is Arsenal. Not sure I see your point there FatJan.

As you like making club comparison's why not do one with Arsenal and, I dunno say Leeds or Portsmouth - see how that one works out. We make no claims to be Bayern Munich or Portsmouth.

"It's not true though is it in truth. It's not all about spending. If it was Chelsea would have won everything 2005 - 2011. City since."

Erm, they pretty much have - with ManU tagging in every so often.
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Henry's cat - this is what you wrote. ManU tagging in every so often

They've 'tagged' in to 5 titles and the CL during this period. So no, sorry you are wrong

"Robbing you can't make reasoned points with evidence to the Gooners"

Which, ironically, is the most accurate and honest thing you've written in pretty much the entire thread.
_____________________________________________

Again, as you admit yourself. Forget the evidence...the evidence paints a true picture. Why would Gooners bother with that