It's a bit of a myth that we are a club who buy unknown players over 'known' stars.
Back in SAF's early days we spent big (at the time) money on players like Pallister, Webb, Ince, Keane, Cole, Wallace and Parker.
£27 million sounds like a lot but with inflation taken into account it's the equivalent of £20 million 10 years ago and if someone said for £20 million we could get a top left back who could give us 15 years of service it would turn out to be a very good signing.
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
How is he unproven?
He's played two seasons at the top level, with no appearances in Europe and one at International level.
£30 million should be for ready made world class players - not ones that might be world class. Particularly at full back!
"It's a bit of a myth that we are a club who buy unknown players over 'known' stars."
It's not a myth at all.
No one claimed we've never spent big.
But for plenty of our players, that's not the case at all.
Winston
I remember when I was a kid my grandmother (RIP) saying that 20p for a chocolate bar was scandalous. They used to cost 5p. I remember thinking she silly because her preconceptions were formed when most people earned about £1000 a year.
If Manchester United the business projects that profits are going to be 50% over the next few years and if people across the sport are aware of this, we have to adjust what we think of as normal pricing.
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
Red Russian (U4715)
I do understand that, but £30 million is not yet at that level, is it?
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
---------------------------------
Completely disagree.
If he were a Brazilian playing in the Bundesliga that they could check on FM and see has a great rating, they would be buzzing.
It is the fact that he IS English that is leading people to question his price.
I also think that some people on here just flat out dismiss any player that comes from a so called "lesser" team in the PL.
comment by The_Red_Cognoscente (U9741)
posted 2 minutes ago
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People were apoplectic when we didn't pay the agents fees for Hazard and didn't bid a high enough amount for Lucas!
This kid is proven in the PL which IMO is the most important thing and plays in a position which needs sorted and can give us many years of service.
We could pay £15 million on a 26 year old left back (Coentrao) who will need replacing in 5 or so years.
There has been far less quaffing about the price of Mangala, for instance.
I would say this.
I agree that we should be in for Shaw, and I agree that he won't be cheap.
But £30 million?
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
-------------------------------------------------------
How so? He is at a club who haven't exactly got money woes. He is one of their brightest ever prospects and is already one of the best 2 left backs in the league. He has many years left on his contract.
We need a left back. They don't need to sell theirs.
How much do you really think he's worth in this current market? Surely not anything less than £20 million and that's being generous.
But £30 million?
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
---------------------------------
If PSG came in for Januzaj, how much would we demand?
I imagine it would be a similar figure and I also imagine that some of our fans would be upset (me included). So why should Saints do anything but try and get the very best price?
#Robb (U19350)
How so?
Quite easy really. Look at what £30 million buys you in the market.
Luke Shaw, as good as he may turn out to be, is currently nowhere near that level.
If we pay that price for him, we are paying absolute top whack.
That's why it would be no negotiation.
They don't need to sell, but they're also not stupid. It's unlikely his price will increase in the next two years, and then it's contract time.
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
That's because he's at Man Utd.
United could quite happily tell PSG to go away, and it's not really a concern.
Southampton have an asset that they're probably resigned to losing at some point, so their issue is at what point can they sell for an optimum price.
"So why should Saints do anything but try and get the very best price?"
Just to pick up on this... where did I suggest that they shouldn't do that?
If PSG came in for Januzaj, how much would we demand?
------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Because he's foreign and everyone knows that English players are awful and anyone born outside these isles is world class.
2) On a more serious note, most United fans have seen what Adnan can do whereas they haven't seen what Shaw can do so feel nervous about backing such a move.
I would never ever say £30 million for Shaw is 'cheap' but whether we pay £20 million for him or £30 million, if he stays with us for the next 15 years and becomes the next Irwin/Neville in terms of full back consistency then it will be a good purchase.
I would never ever say £30 million for Shaw is 'cheap' but whether we pay £20 million for him or £30 million, if he stays with us for the next 15 years and becomes the next Irwin/Neville in terms of full back consistency then it will be a good purchase.
================================
The key word being 'if'.
If we knew he was at CL and International level then absolutely, it's the right thing to do.
But we don't.
The kid has had a decent season in the prem with Southampton but is being priced as if there's no doubt that he's the next Cole.
Hazard had a decent season in a lesser league and was being priced like he was the next Ronaldo.
Many people on here were annoyed we didn't pay top dollar to get him.
If we knew he was at CL and International level then absolutely, it's the right thing to do.
But we don't.
--------------------------------------
We don't. I imagine the club has exhaustively analysed Shaw's worth and potential - and these things are done far more scientifically than they were 10 years ago.
#Robb (U19350)
Not sure what Hazard has to do with this. I would personally offer my view on each case individually.
I think we all agree that he is overpriced, but that is how it is with English players. But writing him off as the next Wayne Bridge is over the top.
Red Russian (U4715)
Fair point.
Though I'd question how much science can really be applied to whether players can cut it in the CL and at International level.
Else, why are so many mistakes being made by clubs, including ourselves?!
I think the massive bonus with Shaw is that he has proven himself in the prem. That is certainly a major plus point.
Just to pick up on this... where did I suggest that they shouldn't do that?
------------------------
I can address your post and also add my own point without it being strictly about what you said.
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
Calm down.
It wasn't unreasonable to ask the question, given that the rest of your post was directed at me, particularly as you were seemingly asking me a question.
Seeing as you agree I hadn't said anything of the sort, my answer would simply be 'of course they should try and get the best price'.
I'd say that is fairly obvious.
I think you would find many are not questioning our interest in Shaw.
The gallery noises are because of his quite frankly, obscene price coupled with the fact that we have not addressed the major problem area: central midfield. People are rightly apprehensive.
Yet, we are willing to outlay a significant chunk on a fullback. I am of the notion that such outlay is for those who are coming around their peak or are at their peaks, thereabout! Shaw is not. He is a tyro! Last Year, he was valued at about 10/15m. Can anyone say with a straight face that he has more than doubled his worth in one season?
RE Hazard, he is an offensive player and has been a star for three seasons running. He was not a nonentity. Many find the Lucas M money silly, so why not Shaw?
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posted on 21/5/14
It's a bit of a myth that we are a club who buy unknown players over 'known' stars.
Back in SAF's early days we spent big (at the time) money on players like Pallister, Webb, Ince, Keane, Cole, Wallace and Parker.
£27 million sounds like a lot but with inflation taken into account it's the equivalent of £20 million 10 years ago and if someone said for £20 million we could get a top left back who could give us 15 years of service it would turn out to be a very good signing.
posted on 21/5/14
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
How is he unproven?
He's played two seasons at the top level, with no appearances in Europe and one at International level.
£30 million should be for ready made world class players - not ones that might be world class. Particularly at full back!
posted on 21/5/14
"It's a bit of a myth that we are a club who buy unknown players over 'known' stars."
It's not a myth at all.
No one claimed we've never spent big.
But for plenty of our players, that's not the case at all.
posted on 21/5/14
Winston
I remember when I was a kid my grandmother (RIP) saying that 20p for a chocolate bar was scandalous. They used to cost 5p. I remember thinking she silly because her preconceptions were formed when most people earned about £1000 a year.
If Manchester United the business projects that profits are going to be 50% over the next few years and if people across the sport are aware of this, we have to adjust what we think of as normal pricing.
posted on 21/5/14
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
posted on 21/5/14
Red Russian (U4715)
I do understand that, but £30 million is not yet at that level, is it?
posted on 21/5/14
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
---------------------------------
Completely disagree.
If he were a Brazilian playing in the Bundesliga that they could check on FM and see has a great rating, they would be buzzing.
It is the fact that he IS English that is leading people to question his price.
I also think that some people on here just flat out dismiss any player that comes from a so called "lesser" team in the PL.
posted on 21/5/14
comment by The_Red_Cognoscente (U9741)
posted 2 minutes ago
If Shaw were not English, the usual suspects would be apoplectic we are spending North of 30M on a relatively unproven kid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People were apoplectic when we didn't pay the agents fees for Hazard and didn't bid a high enough amount for Lucas!
This kid is proven in the PL which IMO is the most important thing and plays in a position which needs sorted and can give us many years of service.
We could pay £15 million on a 26 year old left back (Coentrao) who will need replacing in 5 or so years.
posted on 21/5/14
There has been far less quaffing about the price of Mangala, for instance.
posted on 21/5/14
I would say this.
I agree that we should be in for Shaw, and I agree that he won't be cheap.
But £30 million?
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
posted on 21/5/14
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
-------------------------------------------------------
How so? He is at a club who haven't exactly got money woes. He is one of their brightest ever prospects and is already one of the best 2 left backs in the league. He has many years left on his contract.
We need a left back. They don't need to sell theirs.
How much do you really think he's worth in this current market? Surely not anything less than £20 million and that's being generous.
posted on 21/5/14
But £30 million?
That's not a negotiation. That's pulling your pants down and letting them rifle through your crown jewels.
---------------------------------
If PSG came in for Januzaj, how much would we demand?
I imagine it would be a similar figure and I also imagine that some of our fans would be upset (me included). So why should Saints do anything but try and get the very best price?
posted on 21/5/14
#Robb (U19350)
How so?
Quite easy really. Look at what £30 million buys you in the market.
Luke Shaw, as good as he may turn out to be, is currently nowhere near that level.
If we pay that price for him, we are paying absolute top whack.
That's why it would be no negotiation.
They don't need to sell, but they're also not stupid. It's unlikely his price will increase in the next two years, and then it's contract time.
posted on 21/5/14
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
That's because he's at Man Utd.
United could quite happily tell PSG to go away, and it's not really a concern.
Southampton have an asset that they're probably resigned to losing at some point, so their issue is at what point can they sell for an optimum price.
posted on 21/5/14
"So why should Saints do anything but try and get the very best price?"
Just to pick up on this... where did I suggest that they shouldn't do that?
posted on 21/5/14
If PSG came in for Januzaj, how much would we demand?
------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Because he's foreign and everyone knows that English players are awful and anyone born outside these isles is world class.
2) On a more serious note, most United fans have seen what Adnan can do whereas they haven't seen what Shaw can do so feel nervous about backing such a move.
I would never ever say £30 million for Shaw is 'cheap' but whether we pay £20 million for him or £30 million, if he stays with us for the next 15 years and becomes the next Irwin/Neville in terms of full back consistency then it will be a good purchase.
posted on 21/5/14
I would never ever say £30 million for Shaw is 'cheap' but whether we pay £20 million for him or £30 million, if he stays with us for the next 15 years and becomes the next Irwin/Neville in terms of full back consistency then it will be a good purchase.
================================
The key word being 'if'.
If we knew he was at CL and International level then absolutely, it's the right thing to do.
But we don't.
The kid has had a decent season in the prem with Southampton but is being priced as if there's no doubt that he's the next Cole.
posted on 21/5/14
Hazard had a decent season in a lesser league and was being priced like he was the next Ronaldo.
Many people on here were annoyed we didn't pay top dollar to get him.
posted on 21/5/14
If we knew he was at CL and International level then absolutely, it's the right thing to do.
But we don't.
--------------------------------------
We don't. I imagine the club has exhaustively analysed Shaw's worth and potential - and these things are done far more scientifically than they were 10 years ago.
posted on 21/5/14
#Robb (U19350)
Not sure what Hazard has to do with this. I would personally offer my view on each case individually.
posted on 21/5/14
I think we all agree that he is overpriced, but that is how it is with English players. But writing him off as the next Wayne Bridge is over the top.
posted on 21/5/14
Red Russian (U4715)
Fair point.
Though I'd question how much science can really be applied to whether players can cut it in the CL and at International level.
Else, why are so many mistakes being made by clubs, including ourselves?!
I think the massive bonus with Shaw is that he has proven himself in the prem. That is certainly a major plus point.
posted on 21/5/14
Just to pick up on this... where did I suggest that they shouldn't do that?
------------------------
I can address your post and also add my own point without it being strictly about what you said.
posted on 21/5/14
Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
Calm down.
It wasn't unreasonable to ask the question, given that the rest of your post was directed at me, particularly as you were seemingly asking me a question.
Seeing as you agree I hadn't said anything of the sort, my answer would simply be 'of course they should try and get the best price'.
I'd say that is fairly obvious.
posted on 21/5/14
I think you would find many are not questioning our interest in Shaw.
The gallery noises are because of his quite frankly, obscene price coupled with the fact that we have not addressed the major problem area: central midfield. People are rightly apprehensive.
Yet, we are willing to outlay a significant chunk on a fullback. I am of the notion that such outlay is for those who are coming around their peak or are at their peaks, thereabout! Shaw is not. He is a tyro! Last Year, he was valued at about 10/15m. Can anyone say with a straight face that he has more than doubled his worth in one season?
RE Hazard, he is an offensive player and has been a star for three seasons running. He was not a nonentity. Many find the Lucas M money silly, so why not Shaw?
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