UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
It was just a joke.
Wow - that is quite a short temper you have there. Really no need for that reaction.
Don't act like an idiot to a poster who just gave an opinion on the OP then, particularly when the comment wasn't aimed at you
Oh, I didn't lose my temper. This is the internet.
at the end of the day its not my money and barring injury the lad looks like a good bet at 18 years old. In 10 years 30 mill could turn out to have been a snip
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 8 minutes ago
I'd love to know exactly how players are valued. Fans, especially so when it comes to valuing their own players, come up with valuations all the time. I often wonder what they are basing those valuations on. I would imagine factors such as position (defenders/goalkeepers being valued less than attacking players for example) influence their decision. Plus how long a player has left on his contract. Both perfectly valid reasons.
But how accurate are the figures that us mere fans come up with? Clubs, when valuing players will have several factors to take into account that enables them to come up with a realistic figure. A club signing a player will not only have to think about the transfer fee, but how much the player will command in wages/bonuses over the course of a contract. I suppose the thinking being that, because players are ultimately assets, the possible revenue boost that a player will bring in over the course of his contract is deducted from the overall amount that the player costs the club.
At the moment, the figure being quoted for Shaw is probably speculative (that doesn't mean that it isn't correct however). Let's say that United do sign him for £30m, on a 5 year contract worth £100k per week (including bonuses). The cost to United over that period therefore being £56m. What could United expect to receive in return? Shirt sales/merchandise is one area in which they would get a return - how much I simply couldn't say. Other areas would of course relate to his performances on the pitch and his contribution to any success that United have. His age is also a huge plus in this regard, as it is likely his valuation won't reduce for many years, especially if he is a success (in which case it will most likely increase), meaning that he will remain a saleable asset for quite some time, and thus United can recoup on their outlay should they choose to do so. If he does stay for the majority/rest of his career, then obviously he would only do so if he was a success. In which case, a £30m transfer fee (contract notwithstanding) for many years service could ultimately be deemed to good value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
Act like an idiot?
Wow.
If I was you, I'd have apologised. I've done it before - over reacted and then realised it was an ott reaction.
Either you don't have it in you, or that's just the way you behave.
Shame - but I've no interest in continuing this with you.
It was a light hearted remark and you've behaved pretty poorly.
maybe the club should be looking to poach some of the southhampton scouts with the success theyve had in the last 5-10 years
----------------------------
I don't imagine that the scouts are hugely better than ours, just that the club are under far less pressure to compete at the very top, so can blood in youngsters without so much resting on their shoulders.
Don't get me wrong, they are doing an immense job down there at Saints and have been for some time. But it is not really comparable to how our academy/reserves teams can be run.
Civil war on the United board! Ahoy!
blabla (U11635)
I agree - it's not a major issue if we do it.
But I do prefer it when United unearth a gem, rather than over paying (imo) for a player.
Either way, if it works out well then we'll all be pleased, of course.
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 2 seconds ago
maybe the club should be looking to poach some of the southhampton scouts with the success theyve had in the last 5-10 years
----------------------------
I don't imagine that the scouts are hugely better than ours, just that the club are under far less pressure to compete at the very top, so can blood in youngsters without so much resting on their shoulders.
Don't get me wrong, they are doing an immense job down there at Saints and have been for some time. But it is not really comparable to how our academy/reserves teams can be run.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
theyve had an incredible output in the last number of years. off the top of my head wayne bridge, walcott, chamberlain, bale , shaw
Irwin, Silvestre, Heinze and Evra all came in at decent prices and gave us years of service. None of them cost a tenth of what Shaw is being sold for and it is incredibly stupid for Utd to not look elsewhere for alternatives.
-----------
come on Mudd, they are awful comparrisons.
Irwin was signed over 20 years ago, and Heinze had 1 good season.
Silvestre was average but was lucky enough to have quality around him.
Evra again was near on 10 years ago.
As Macca mentioned, noone battered an eyelid when we paid near on 20 million for jones.
I did bat an eyelid about Jones outlay and still do.
Winstone
Stop acting like you are the bigger man. You;re the one who made the initial comment, not me
Seems you can give it out but not take it
I batted several eyelids for Jones and I still am.
In regards to the selling club, in this case Southampton, any transfer fee they get for him is effectively regarded as compensation. The starting point of any players valuation will relate to the value of his contract. Say he's on £50k per week and has 3 years of his contract remaining. A total of £7.8m. Added to this valuation will be what the selling club could potentially stand to lose by selling the player. Loss in merchandise over the remaining duration of his contract. A possible loss in performance related income over the course of his contract (for example, finishing lower in the PL - a scenario which is obviously more likely when the player in question is one of the club's better, if not best, players).
Then a premium would be added because of his nationality - the home grown quota being the reason for that (which is ultimately the reason why English players cost more for English clubs - the buying club acquires a home-grown player while the selling club loses one).
And then I would imagine the amount (or least a percentage of the amount) that it would cost the selling club to replace him would also be added.
Dunc, SIlvestre was not average, amazing how many people have selective memories when it comes to him. Heinze also did not have only one good season.
Our scouting team should be sacked if we buy this guy for 30m
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 11 minutes ago
blabla (U11635)
I agree - it's not a major issue if we do it.
But I do prefer it when United unearth a gem, rather than over paying (imo) for a player.
Either way, if it works out well then we'll all be pleased, of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
bottom line is the lad is available and has proven hes of pl standard with lots of potential. It sounds like he wants to sign for us and with other positions to be filled the club dont really have the time to be messing about. After last summers fiasco it would be great to get one deal done and dusted already
the fact is noone knows how shaw will turn out, the same as they didnt know how Rio would fare, or rooney when they both made the switch.
My cousin is a season ticket holder at saint Mary's and they really do rate him down there ( yes we know MUDD, new bridge blah blah blah) so for me its worth taking the risk.
We could get 15 years of top service from him, which would be fantastic.
if we dont, who gives a feck, we sell him and move on, it wouldnt be the first time its happened.
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
Shaw has shown nothing near the ability of a young Rooney/Ronaldo and 30m is too big a risk an an unproven player.
Amazing how so many people want to throw 30m on a player they have rarely seen play. Amazing
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
-------
you can see shaw is an accomplished footballer though as he is at the minute.
your concern is whether he can sustain that.
UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
This will be my last comment on the matter.
I made a light hearted comment, as a joke.
You responded with insults.
There's a difference.
It's a shame you don't have the maturity to accept you overreacted and had no need to be as rude as you were.
There's only one of us flinging insults around, and it isn't me.
But anyway, I don't waste my time with people like you, so that's that. All the best.
Macca,
making friends i see
"After last summers fiasco it would be great to get one deal done and dusted already"
Now that I agree with!
Macca is becoming as antagonistic as VC.
comment by dunc - slayer of the gullible (U11713)
posted 15 minutes ago
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
-------
you can see shaw is an accomplished footballer though as he is at the minute.
your concern is whether he can sustain that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not seen anything to make me believe he is good enough at our level. He needs to do that first, then sustain it.
If we have a kitty of about 100m, spending a third on a LB is madness
Amazing how so many people want to throw 30m on a player they have rarely seen play. Amazing
--------------------------------
didn't you earlier say you have seen him play only 5 times?
Don't you see any irony in the fact that you have seen him a few times and feel like you can clearly say if he will make it or not... Yet deride others who have seen him a few times, yet think the opposite?
Sign in if you want to comment
Shaw
Page 5 of 8
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posted on 21/5/14
UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
It was just a joke.
Wow - that is quite a short temper you have there. Really no need for that reaction.
posted on 21/5/14
Don't act like an idiot to a poster who just gave an opinion on the OP then, particularly when the comment wasn't aimed at you
Oh, I didn't lose my temper. This is the internet.
posted on 21/5/14
at the end of the day its not my money and barring injury the lad looks like a good bet at 18 years old. In 10 years 30 mill could turn out to have been a snip
posted on 21/5/14
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 8 minutes ago
I'd love to know exactly how players are valued. Fans, especially so when it comes to valuing their own players, come up with valuations all the time. I often wonder what they are basing those valuations on. I would imagine factors such as position (defenders/goalkeepers being valued less than attacking players for example) influence their decision. Plus how long a player has left on his contract. Both perfectly valid reasons.
But how accurate are the figures that us mere fans come up with? Clubs, when valuing players will have several factors to take into account that enables them to come up with a realistic figure. A club signing a player will not only have to think about the transfer fee, but how much the player will command in wages/bonuses over the course of a contract. I suppose the thinking being that, because players are ultimately assets, the possible revenue boost that a player will bring in over the course of his contract is deducted from the overall amount that the player costs the club.
At the moment, the figure being quoted for Shaw is probably speculative (that doesn't mean that it isn't correct however). Let's say that United do sign him for £30m, on a 5 year contract worth £100k per week (including bonuses). The cost to United over that period therefore being £56m. What could United expect to receive in return? Shirt sales/merchandise is one area in which they would get a return - how much I simply couldn't say. Other areas would of course relate to his performances on the pitch and his contribution to any success that United have. His age is also a huge plus in this regard, as it is likely his valuation won't reduce for many years, especially if he is a success (in which case it will most likely increase), meaning that he will remain a saleable asset for quite some time, and thus United can recoup on their outlay should they choose to do so. If he does stay for the majority/rest of his career, then obviously he would only do so if he was a success. In which case, a £30m transfer fee (contract notwithstanding) for many years service could ultimately be deemed to good value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 21/5/14
UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
Act like an idiot?
Wow.
If I was you, I'd have apologised. I've done it before - over reacted and then realised it was an ott reaction.
Either you don't have it in you, or that's just the way you behave.
Shame - but I've no interest in continuing this with you.
It was a light hearted remark and you've behaved pretty poorly.
posted on 21/5/14
maybe the club should be looking to poach some of the southhampton scouts with the success theyve had in the last 5-10 years
----------------------------
I don't imagine that the scouts are hugely better than ours, just that the club are under far less pressure to compete at the very top, so can blood in youngsters without so much resting on their shoulders.
Don't get me wrong, they are doing an immense job down there at Saints and have been for some time. But it is not really comparable to how our academy/reserves teams can be run.
posted on 21/5/14
Civil war on the United board! Ahoy!
posted on 21/5/14
blabla (U11635)
I agree - it's not a major issue if we do it.
But I do prefer it when United unearth a gem, rather than over paying (imo) for a player.
Either way, if it works out well then we'll all be pleased, of course.
posted on 21/5/14
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 2 seconds ago
maybe the club should be looking to poach some of the southhampton scouts with the success theyve had in the last 5-10 years
----------------------------
I don't imagine that the scouts are hugely better than ours, just that the club are under far less pressure to compete at the very top, so can blood in youngsters without so much resting on their shoulders.
Don't get me wrong, they are doing an immense job down there at Saints and have been for some time. But it is not really comparable to how our academy/reserves teams can be run.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
theyve had an incredible output in the last number of years. off the top of my head wayne bridge, walcott, chamberlain, bale , shaw
posted on 21/5/14
Irwin, Silvestre, Heinze and Evra all came in at decent prices and gave us years of service. None of them cost a tenth of what Shaw is being sold for and it is incredibly stupid for Utd to not look elsewhere for alternatives.
-----------
come on Mudd, they are awful comparrisons.
Irwin was signed over 20 years ago, and Heinze had 1 good season.
Silvestre was average but was lucky enough to have quality around him.
Evra again was near on 10 years ago.
As Macca mentioned, noone battered an eyelid when we paid near on 20 million for jones.
posted on 21/5/14
I did bat an eyelid about Jones outlay and still do.
posted on 21/5/14
Winstone
Stop acting like you are the bigger man. You;re the one who made the initial comment, not me
Seems you can give it out but not take it
posted on 21/5/14
I batted several eyelids for Jones and I still am.
posted on 21/5/14
In regards to the selling club, in this case Southampton, any transfer fee they get for him is effectively regarded as compensation. The starting point of any players valuation will relate to the value of his contract. Say he's on £50k per week and has 3 years of his contract remaining. A total of £7.8m. Added to this valuation will be what the selling club could potentially stand to lose by selling the player. Loss in merchandise over the remaining duration of his contract. A possible loss in performance related income over the course of his contract (for example, finishing lower in the PL - a scenario which is obviously more likely when the player in question is one of the club's better, if not best, players).
Then a premium would be added because of his nationality - the home grown quota being the reason for that (which is ultimately the reason why English players cost more for English clubs - the buying club acquires a home-grown player while the selling club loses one).
And then I would imagine the amount (or least a percentage of the amount) that it would cost the selling club to replace him would also be added.
posted on 21/5/14
Dunc, SIlvestre was not average, amazing how many people have selective memories when it comes to him. Heinze also did not have only one good season.
Our scouting team should be sacked if we buy this guy for 30m
posted on 21/5/14
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 11 minutes ago
blabla (U11635)
I agree - it's not a major issue if we do it.
But I do prefer it when United unearth a gem, rather than over paying (imo) for a player.
Either way, if it works out well then we'll all be pleased, of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
bottom line is the lad is available and has proven hes of pl standard with lots of potential. It sounds like he wants to sign for us and with other positions to be filled the club dont really have the time to be messing about. After last summers fiasco it would be great to get one deal done and dusted already
posted on 21/5/14
the fact is noone knows how shaw will turn out, the same as they didnt know how Rio would fare, or rooney when they both made the switch.
My cousin is a season ticket holder at saint Mary's and they really do rate him down there ( yes we know MUDD, new bridge blah blah blah) so for me its worth taking the risk.
We could get 15 years of top service from him, which would be fantastic.
if we dont, who gives a feck, we sell him and move on, it wouldnt be the first time its happened.
posted on 21/5/14
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
Shaw has shown nothing near the ability of a young Rooney/Ronaldo and 30m is too big a risk an an unproven player.
Amazing how so many people want to throw 30m on a player they have rarely seen play. Amazing
posted on 21/5/14
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
-------
you can see shaw is an accomplished footballer though as he is at the minute.
your concern is whether he can sustain that.
posted on 21/5/14
UnitedRedMacca (U2024)
This will be my last comment on the matter.
I made a light hearted comment, as a joke.
You responded with insults.
There's a difference.
It's a shame you don't have the maturity to accept you overreacted and had no need to be as rude as you were.
There's only one of us flinging insults around, and it isn't me.
But anyway, I don't waste my time with people like you, so that's that. All the best.
posted on 21/5/14
Macca,
making friends i see
posted on 21/5/14
"After last summers fiasco it would be great to get one deal done and dusted already"
Now that I agree with!
posted on 21/5/14
Macca is becoming as antagonistic as VC.
posted on 21/5/14
comment by dunc - slayer of the gullible (U11713)
posted 15 minutes ago
Not true about Rio Dunc, Rio was already an accomplished footballer and with Rooney you could see it.
-------
you can see shaw is an accomplished footballer though as he is at the minute.
your concern is whether he can sustain that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not seen anything to make me believe he is good enough at our level. He needs to do that first, then sustain it.
If we have a kitty of about 100m, spending a third on a LB is madness
posted on 21/5/14
Amazing how so many people want to throw 30m on a player they have rarely seen play. Amazing
--------------------------------
didn't you earlier say you have seen him play only 5 times?
Don't you see any irony in the fact that you have seen him a few times and feel like you can clearly say if he will make it or not... Yet deride others who have seen him a few times, yet think the opposite?
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