comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
I'm pretty confident a govt could introduce some laws about this, why has this not been done?

I'm also pretty confident a govt can make education accessible to all and not make the average joe start life 45k in debt.

There's money to bomb brown people in the ME but no money to invest in our own?
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Laws about what? Zero hours? Immigration? The latter is a no go. The former would need exceptions, as there still needs to be a certain amount of flexible work in the jobs market.

Yes, higher education costs, but the genetalbdebate we are having now is not particularly relevant to graduates, if at all.

No argument from me on point three. Sadly that is a consequence of Tone though. He made the bed, we are lying in it

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 4 minutes ago
Would it not have been better to work with the EU to revise this arrangement?

How would 1 country force its will on the other 27?
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There is no appetite to change it from the EU though. We know this.

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That's not entirely accurate, considering the concerns regarding Syrian refugees, there is an appetite to change it.
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The only way freedom of movement will be up for debate is if a critical mass of countries look to leave the EU. The threat of us alone was not enough, but I thinknit would also take France looking to do so for them to take action

Laws about employment contracts for instance and the minimum wage.

You address the issue immediately, head on

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 36 minutes ago
Indeed melton which is why I am concerned that now in a far more competitive market place, the self employed will be further decimated by countries with the same skills and lower wages.

This is why when these criminals are saying we need to form closer relationships with the common wealth and China, Brits should be very afraid.
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Its a global market place right now. The difference is that high skilled workforce is a scarce commodity. In other words highly skilled workers are paid about the same where ever you go in the world or the work is out sourced. The problem is not the educated workforce. Its the uneducated or low skilled economy that is troublesome because in reality they can only really move in a free movement liberal market. That will never exist with countries you quote.

There needs to be some flexibility though, as not everyone wants a full time job or to be given set hours they cannot fulfil.

Perhaps a % quota on perm/zero hrs contracts, with a core off permanent staff. Not all companies would fit the same criteria though.

Simply upping the wage will not help. The job uncertaintly will still be there, and these jobs will simply become increasingly more attractive.

It does seem like a convolute way of solving a problem

It is a very simple way to solve the problem. I did not suggest you just up the wage.

1. You eliminate unskilled workers as employers will not be willing to foot the bill for someone not trained and suitably competent

2. You stop the local workforce getting undercut

comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 36 minutes ago
Indeed melton which is why I am concerned that now in a far more competitive market place, the self employed will be further decimated by countries with the same skills and lower wages.

This is why when these criminals are saying we need to form closer relationships with the common wealth and China, Brits should be very afraid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Its a global market place right now. The difference is that high skilled workforce is a scarce commodity. In other words highly skilled workers are paid about the same where ever you go in the world or the work is out sourced. The problem is not the educated workforce. Its the uneducated or low skilled economy that is troublesome because in reality they can only really move in a free movement liberal market. That will never exist with countries you quote.
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How do you define who is educated and who is not educated?

The vast majority of the migrants that come here from Eastern Europe have got university degrees.

They'll take a lesser paying job because they will earn more here than back home. Same issue with commonwealth workers.

You see the same thing in Asda, NHS, etc.

They are happy to work here because per hour they are making more than they would at home.

I'll give you an example, when I worked in Nigeria grads were making £2k per month there.

In Nigeria for example; £2k will pay your rent in a 3 bed apartment in a nice area for a year.

Do you see the fundamental difference?

£1 in Nigeria can feed you for a day, no problem whatsoever.

So when the skilled worker comes here and cannot get a job because his name is exotic in the resume, he'll work his ass off in a low paying job for the duration he is here and take what he has made back home.

Same with the poles and the romanians.

The more they are antagonised by the disgusting immigrant rhetoric, the more you prevent them from contributing here besides their tax and NI.

Skilled workers are hard to come by and there is a dearth of them in technical engineering disciplines in the UK.

Most of the schools we used to recruit from before May implemented her racist immigration policies were foreign nationals.

There is a serious problem with this country nobody wants to address with education, manufacturing and opportunities for the less privileged.

The chasm between the have and the have nots will continue to grow whilst the have nots continue to vote against their economic interests.

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 4 minutes ago
It is a very simple way to solve the problem. I did not suggest you just up the wage.

1. You eliminate unskilled workers as employers will not be willing to foot the bill for someone not trained and suitably competent

2. You stop the local workforce getting undercut
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Mudd, bit naive maybe, but your point 2 about undercutting. How does that happen?

Let me explain, most of my contact with immigrants from EU shows them to be in essence minimum wage types, no racism implied or intended here. Isn't minimum wage paid to them, same as it would be to a local?

I'll explain Redd, in addition to the wage, you ensure enforcement and stop guys hiring people in Poland at polish rates and bringing them here to work because once they come here, they must be paid the minimum wage.

Increasing the wage is 1 thing, ensuring enforcement and writing legislation is the other

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 7 minutes ago
It is a very simple way to solve the problem. I did not suggest you just up the wage.

1. You eliminate unskilled workers as employers will not be willing to foot the bill for someone not trained and suitably competent

2. You stop the local workforce getting undercut
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How do eliminate unskilled workers? People will still need to man tills, to deliver parcels, stack shelves.

How would you address the zero hours contract problem? You said yourself you have no problem with them if people wished to have them.To decrease them would be to either:

A) Have a convolute method of when they are allowed or not, and the loopholes that come with it

B) Ban them altogether and punish the many it actively suits

C) Control the number of people we allow to migrate here, and make pay better for the entire lower rung.

At present it seems to be a case of "take a zero hours job, if not an migrant will do it"

Not fair on anyone really, our own unskilled or the migrant.

How do eliminate unskilled workers? People will still need to man tills, to deliver parcels, stack shelves.
=============

That requires you learning some skills, to man tills you need to understand how it works.

comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted less than a minute ago
At present it seems to be a case of "take a zero hours job, if not an migrant will do it"

Not fair on anyone really, our own unskilled or the migrant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, so why are we not fighting the proposers of these, but are focused on the immigrant?

Thanks MUDD. Will need tonlook into it to grasp it.

Again this is just my experience, based on my work in regeneration and recently the building trade, but the "black economy" (for want of a better word) where undercutting etc happens is mainly locals and not immigrants as such

What I mean is that, in say building trade, the main people undercutting are local tradesmen who are on benefits etc and will do day work for £30/£40/£50 a day cash in hand

Lad near me, for example, is the cheapest guy you will find to do up your garden (fencing, paving, landscaping etc).

A mate recently needed fire doors fitting. Joiners quoted £40 a door. Polish quoted £35. Local builder said he would work for £50 a day. It was 6 doors in total. Done in 2 days for £100. Whereas polish and joiners would have been in excess of £200.

comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 4 minutes ago
It is a very simple way to solve the problem. I did not suggest you just up the wage.

1. You eliminate unskilled workers as employers will not be willing to foot the bill for someone not trained and suitably competent

2. You stop the local workforce getting undercut
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mudd, bit naive maybe, but your point 2 about undercutting. How does that happen?

Let me explain, most of my contact with immigrants from EU shows them to be in essence minimum wage types, no racism implied or intended here. Isn't minimum wage paid to them, same as it would be to a local?
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That is in your experience. The thing is there are skilled workers coming here and doing skilled jobs for less money that an English skilled worker is willing to do the job for. And no I'm not talking minimum wage here.

Imagine there is a shipbuilder looking for skilled welders / boilermakers. There are 150 applicants for the 15 jobs. 120 of these applicants are fully skilled English workers and expecting a welder / boilermaker wage of say £40k (as an example before people start saying they don't earn anywhere near that).

Now say the remaining 30 are equally skilled EU immigrants who are willing to do the job for £30k-£35k. Who do you think the shipyard is going to employ?

I would hazard a guess that the shipyard would love to save £75k-£150k per year and would employ the immigrants. Anybody who thinks differently is deluding themselves.

Genghis, I admit nativity hence my question mate. And yeah it was very much unskilled work I was looking at


In terms of your example didn't this occur anyway? I mean big business always tender and even move operations abroad to save money?

I appreciate I may be being thick here, so bear with me. Am just trying to get my head around things

comment by sᴉɥƃuǝlפ (U19365)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 4 minutes ago
It is a very simple way to solve the problem. I did not suggest you just up the wage.

1. You eliminate unskilled workers as employers will not be willing to foot the bill for someone not trained and suitably competent

2. You stop the local workforce getting undercut
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mudd, bit naive maybe, but your point 2 about undercutting. How does that happen?

Let me explain, most of my contact with immigrants from EU shows them to be in essence minimum wage types, no racism implied or intended here. Isn't minimum wage paid to them, same as it would be to a local?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is in your experience. The thing is there are skilled workers coming here and doing skilled jobs for less money that an English skilled worker is willing to do the job for. And no I'm not talking minimum wage here.

Imagine there is a shipbuilder looking for skilled welders / boilermakers. There are 150 applicants for the 15 jobs. 120 of these applicants are fully skilled English workers and expecting a welder / boilermaker wage of say £40k (as an example before people start saying they don't earn anywhere near that).

Now say the remaining 30 are equally skilled EU immigrants who are willing to do the job for £30k-£35k. Who do you think the shipyard is going to employ?

I would hazard a guess that the shipyard would love to save £75k-£150k per year and would employ the immigrants. Anybody who thinks differently is deluding themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why Polish shipyards are getting way more work than British ones.

Wonder what people will think will happen when everything gets outsourced to commonwealth countries.

I still don't get why the EU is being blamed for our own government failings, it's focussing on the symptom rather than the cause.

Wonder what people will think will happen when everything gets outsourced to commonwealth countries.
--------------


Anyone want to hazard a guess what the average wage is in the rest of the "commonwealth" excluding the UK?

This is why Polish shipyards are getting way more work than British ones.

Wonder what people will think will happen when everything gets outsourced to commonwealth countries.


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My apologies as I am just coming late to this interesting debate.

But what on earth are you talking about here exactly. We are already outsourcing services and manufacturing to India and China and have been for the last 2 decades. What are you so worried about?

We are already outsourcing services and manufacturing to India and China and have been for the last 2 decades. What are you so worried about?

---------------------------
how do you plan to stem that flow and keep the jobs in the UK?

If the actual jobs move abroad, they won't be contributing PAYE or NI in the UK, nor are those employees spending money on goods and services in the UK.

UK companies will be buying these services from abroad, affected balance of payments still.

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted less than a minute ago
At present it seems to be a case of "take a zero hours job, if not an migrant will do it"

Not fair on anyone really, our own unskilled or the migrant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, so why are we not fighting the proposers of these, but are focused on the immigrant?
----------------------------------------------------------------------


It is not the immigrant, it is unlimited immigration.

It is not all or nothing.

The fact is, all the time there is an virtually endless market for zero hours jobs, the more there will be.

We cannot eliminate zero hours jobs, in moderation they are needed.

Policing what percentage is needed, and what is firms taking advantage is not workable because of the many different types of job

comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 14 minutes ago
This is why Polish shipyards are getting way more work than British ones.

Wonder what people will think will happen when everything gets outsourced to commonwealth countries.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

My apologies as I am just coming late to this interesting debate.

But what on earth are you talking about here exactly. We are already outsourcing services and manufacturing to India and China and have been for the last 2 decades. What are you so worried about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not worried about anything. I worry about the people who voted to leave the EU because they want to develop enhanced relationships with these countries.

They are not aware of what they have signed up to

comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted less than a minute ago
At present it seems to be a case of "take a zero hours job, if not an migrant will do it"

Not fair on anyone really, our own unskilled or the migrant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, so why are we not fighting the proposers of these, but are focused on the immigrant?
----------------------------------------------------------------------


It is not the immigrant, it is unlimited immigration.

It is not all or nothing.

The fact is, all the time there is an virtually endless market for zero hours jobs, the more there will be.

We cannot eliminate zero hours jobs, in moderation they are needed.

Policing what percentage is needed, and what is firms taking advantage is not workable because of the many different types of job

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is unlimited immigration peculiar to the UK? Nope

7th or 8th destination for migrants, so why are we number 1 when it comes to fear about it?

comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted less than a minute ago
At present it seems to be a case of "take a zero hours job, if not an migrant will do it"

Not fair on anyone really, our own unskilled or the migrant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, so why are we not fighting the proposers of these, but are focused on the immigrant?
----------------------------------------------------------------------


It is not the immigrant, it is unlimited immigration.

It is not all or nothing.

The fact is, all the time there is an virtually endless market for zero hours jobs, the more there will be.

We cannot eliminate zero hours jobs, in moderation they are needed.

Policing what percentage is needed, and what is firms taking advantage is not workable because of the many different types of job

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is unlimited immigration peculiar to the UK? Nope

7th or 8th destination for migrants, so why are we number 1 when it comes to fear about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Are we 7th or 8th in terms of EU migration?

Are we really number 1 in terms of fear? How do you quantify this?