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Van Dijk won't improve Liverpool significan

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posted on 29/12/17

comment by Forever in Our Shadow (U21185)
posted 1 minute ago
Overrated 75 million times. Clown player. The mousers did the same with comedy Lovren.
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Fortunately the opposite of what you say tends to be true.

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Brain (U18701)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 43 minutes ago
Op....bolox mate!

Our defensive errors are 90% individual errors...lovren, mignolet and moreno. VVD in place of lovren, robertson in place of moreno. Less mistakes fella because they are better players...QED!!
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Partly caused by defensive players being put under pressure by the system
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How do you explain our 3 goals conceded at home in 10 games?

posted on 29/12/17

In my opinion, the way Klopp sets up his teams makes defending very challenging for any defender, and the pressure (due to energetic and swift attacking) that they are often placed under makes it difficult for any defensive player to be consistently good.
=========================================================
I think you’ll find that our possession stats, and the proportion of the game spent in the opposition’s half, are very high, so it’s difficult to see how that puts defenders under extra pressure.

Defenders are put under extra pressure when teams are pounding away at them, without any respite.

Personally, I think what we've most lacked at the back is leadership.
Our defence can be very good for long periods, and long sequences of games, but there are phases of particular games where they panic, and go into meltdown, so the bulk of the goals we've conceded have been bunched into those phases of those games (and at City, it was mostly after we went down to 10 men).

In between those phases of those games, we keep
a lot of clean-sheets.

=========================================================
he may find that the perceived pressure affects his game.
=========================================================
With the rising TV revenues, high transfer fees are just routine, now.

City have 3 of the top 4 most expensive defenders in the world, would you say it has affected their game?
(They’ve only conceded 12 goals, and without parking the bus).

posted on 29/12/17

all one need show is a replay of the goals spurs were gifted.

they are pure utter panic on the part of lovren and mingolet is as usual half asleep and not ready when he makes his blunder.

take lovren out and put vvd in and yes it has to be some level of improvement.

Lovren is great, great but you just know he will be great right up until he completely messes up. he can go play 3 games perfect but you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop... and it will.

posted on 29/12/17

comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 4 minutes ago
all one need show is a replay of the goals spurs were gifted.

they are pure utter panic on the part of lovren and mingolet is as usual half asleep and not ready when he makes his blunder.

take lovren out and put vvd in and yes it has to be some level of improvement.

Lovren is great, great but you just know he will be great right up until he completely messes up. he can go play 3 games perfect but you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop... and it will.

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The same is true of Moreno and Mignolet. They are all fine most of the time, but they are all essentially ticking time bombs. They will make a mistake at some point and usually it's not just a consolation goal in a 4-1 win, it's usually costly.

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 52 minutes ago
In my opinion, the way Klopp sets up his teams makes defending very challenging for any defender, and the pressure (due to energetic and swift attacking) that they are often placed under makes it difficult for any defensive player to be consistently good.
=========================================================
I think you’ll find that our possession stats, and the proportion of the game spent in the opposition’s half, are very high, so it’s difficult to see how that puts defenders under extra pressure.

Defenders are put under extra pressure when teams are pounding away at them, without any respite.

Personally, I think what we've most lacked at the back is leadership.
Our defence can be very good for long periods, and long sequences of games, but there are phases of particular games where they panic, and go into meltdown, so the bulk of the goals we've conceded have been bunched into those phases of those games (and at City, it was mostly after we went down to 10 men).

In between those phases of those games, we keep
a lot of clean-sheets.

=========================================================
he may find that the perceived pressure affects his game.
=========================================================
With the rising TV revenues, high transfer fees are just routine, now.

City have 3 of the top 4 most expensive defenders in the world, would you say it has affected their game?
(They’ve only conceded 12 goals, and without parking the bus).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't think that having so many players in the opposition half creates a situation where the few left defending are at times put under more pressure?

As for the transfer fee, yes they are getting higher, but you are talking now about the worlds most expensive defender ever. Id say that comes with a level of pressure.

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Brain (U18701)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 52 minutes ago
In my opinion, the way Klopp sets up his teams makes defending very challenging for any defender, and the pressure (due to energetic and swift attacking) that they are often placed under makes it difficult for any defensive player to be consistently good.
=========================================================
I think you’ll find that our possession stats, and the proportion of the game spent in the opposition’s half, are very high, so it’s difficult to see how that puts defenders under extra pressure.

Defenders are put under extra pressure when teams are pounding away at them, without any respite.

Personally, I think what we've most lacked at the back is leadership.
Our defence can be very good for long periods, and long sequences of games, but there are phases of particular games where they panic, and go into meltdown, so the bulk of the goals we've conceded have been bunched into those phases of those games (and at City, it was mostly after we went down to 10 men).

In between those phases of those games, we keep
a lot of clean-sheets.

=========================================================
he may find that the perceived pressure affects his game.
=========================================================
With the rising TV revenues, high transfer fees are just routine, now.

City have 3 of the top 4 most expensive defenders in the world, would you say it has affected their game?
(They’ve only conceded 12 goals, and without parking the bus).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't think that having so many players in the opposition half creates a situation where the few left defending are at times put under more pressure?

As for the transfer fee, yes they are getting higher, but you are talking now about the worlds most expensive defender ever. Id say that comes with a level of pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can, but if you look at the goals we have conceded a lot of them are avoidable, pressure or no pressure.

posted on 29/12/17

How do you explain our 3 goals conceded in 10 Home games?

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Firmino's Brightest Tooth (U1217)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Brain (U18701)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 52 minutes ago
In my opinion, the way Klopp sets up his teams makes defending very challenging for any defender, and the pressure (due to energetic and swift attacking) that they are often placed under makes it difficult for any defensive player to be consistently good.
=========================================================
I think you’ll find that our possession stats, and the proportion of the game spent in the opposition’s half, are very high, so it’s difficult to see how that puts defenders under extra pressure.

Defenders are put under extra pressure when teams are pounding away at them, without any respite.

Personally, I think what we've most lacked at the back is leadership.
Our defence can be very good for long periods, and long sequences of games, but there are phases of particular games where they panic, and go into meltdown, so the bulk of the goals we've conceded have been bunched into those phases of those games (and at City, it was mostly after we went down to 10 men).

In between those phases of those games, we keep
a lot of clean-sheets.

=========================================================
he may find that the perceived pressure affects his game.
=========================================================
With the rising TV revenues, high transfer fees are just routine, now.

City have 3 of the top 4 most expensive defenders in the world, would you say it has affected their game?
(They’ve only conceded 12 goals, and without parking the bus).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't think that having so many players in the opposition half creates a situation where the few left defending are at times put under more pressure?

As for the transfer fee, yes they are getting higher, but you are talking now about the worlds most expensive defender ever. Id say that comes with a level of pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can, but if you look at the goals we have conceded a lot of them are avoidable, pressure or no pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed it can

posted on 29/12/17

You don't think that having so many players in the opposition half creates a situation where the few left defending are at times put under more pressure?
=============================================================
No.
Loss of concentration, perhaps, but not more pressure. Otherwise, what you're arguing is that defenders are under pressure when the opposition are attacking, and also under pressure when they're not.

We concede very few goals from counter-attacks.
We usually concede when everybody's back, so the theory that it's because we attack too much is a bit moot.

=============================================================
you are talking now about the worlds most expensive defender ever. Id say that comes with a level of pressure.
=============================================================
It’s possible, I suppose, but the next three most expensive, after VVD, all play for City, and they seem to be enjoying themselves.

VVD’s quite a laid-back character, by all accounts, so I’m optimistic he’ll manage.

posted on 29/12/17

Failing to win the first ball and then not dealing with the second is one of our main problems. That's just about awareness and taking responsibility.

posted on 29/12/17

Numerous people with no connection to Liverpool who have played with or managed VVD say he can be one of the best in the world and has every attribute needed.

If that’s true then the idea he wouldn’t improve is is laughable.

And Brain, third time of asking, how do you explain our 3 goals conceded in 10 Home games?

posted on 29/12/17

Brain is just refusing to accept that most of our goals conceded are not due to the system. No idea why.

posted on 29/12/17

It’s sure taking you a long time to come up with explanation Brain.

4th time of asking (and you have been on the thread since the first time)

Why have we only conceded 3 goals in 10 Home games if we have a system problem?

posted on 29/12/17


Too little, too late for this season! Maybe could have gotten him for less next Summer?

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Globaled (U7198)
posted 7 minutes ago

Too little, too late for this season! Maybe could have gotten him for less next Summer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah we needed to do this now before other teams had the chance to make their move. We even flew a medical team down to Bournemouth to get it done ASAP.

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Globaled (U7198)
posted 9 minutes ago

Too little, too late for this season! Maybe could have gotten him for less next Summer?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not when he signed a 6 year deal 12 moths ago, fees are only going one way.⬆️

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by selbstgerechtein (U7048)
posted 1 hour, 26 minutes ago
It’s sure taking you a long time to come up with explanation Brain.

4th time of asking (and you have been on the thread since the first time)

Why have we only conceded 3 goals in 10 Home games if we have a system problem?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've just glanced back at this now, you can't surely think I spend all day on a football forum can you? This is just an occasional distraction, but I do have better things to do.

What is it you would like to know? 3 in 10 home games is decent, so clearly you must have an excellent defence, yes? My original point though, if you cast your mind back (and you must have been on here for hours, so I'll remind you) was that I don't believe VVD will significantly improve the team in the way some seem to think he will. He is a good player and will bring good qualities, but between the coach and the system, I don't think there will be any radical upturn in overall defensive effectiveness.

I may be wrong, and I wish him well, but don't expect him to go from being a saint to the messiah.

posted on 29/12/17

It’s not that you maybe wrong, you just are wrong!

posted on 29/12/17

between the coach and the system, I don't think there will be any radical upturn in overall defensive effectiveness.
=======================================================
A number of different points have been made in rebuttal of this, including the one you are replying to about the defensive record at home, but all you’ve done here is ignore all the points, and repeat your original assertion.

You did originally support your view by arguing that defences are under more pressure when their team spends most of its time in the opposition’s half.....a slightly eccentric point, but at least an answer.

But then we moved on from that, and you still haven’t answered why you seem to think our attacking style is part of the problem when most of the goals we concede are when everybody is back, nor why a systemic failure doesn’t appear to be in evidence when we’re at home.

It’s not really how debating works, Brian.

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by KLS. (U1695)
posted 37 minutes ago
It’s not that you maybe wrong, you just are wrong!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite the opposite, as until he's played, nothing can be shown as fact. As such, your suggestion that you can speak definitely is incorrect and unsupported, so literally speaking, it is currently you who is wrong.

posted on 29/12/17

So you haven’t got an answer as to why with a system problem we have the best defence in the country at home then 👍

As I suspected.

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 10 minutes ago
between the coach and the system, I don't think there will be any radical upturn in overall defensive effectiveness.
=======================================================
A number of different points have been made in rebuttal of this, including the one you are replying to about the defensive record at home, but all you’ve done here is ignore all the points, and repeat your original assertion.

You did originally support your view by arguing that defences are under more pressure when their team spends most of its time in the opposition’s half.....a slightly eccentric point, but at least an answer.

But then we moved on from that, and you still haven’t answered why you seem to think our attacking style is part of the problem when most of the goals we concede are when everybody is back, nor why a systemic failure doesn’t appear to be in evidence when we’re at home.

It’s not really how debating works, Brian.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Debating is where one or more parties discuss a topic or topics, typically with differing points of view. I've offered my views and reasons, and you have offered yours, so that's exactly how debating works. It's also rare in debate for one party to alter their view to align with the other, which is also the case here.

As for the flow of this thread, my point remains that I believe Van Dijk will not radically improve Liverpool, and Ive not seen anything substantive to persuade me otherwise. Your desire to offer a reductive view which isnt tremendously convincing. I'll ask you a question though - why do previously reliable and competent defenders seem to regularly fall to pieces playing for Liverpool? What, for example, has happened to the previously (at Southampton) impressive Lovren? Why does he look so bad now when previously Liverpool were prepared to throw piles of cash at Southampton to sign him?

comment by Brain (U18701)

posted on 29/12/17

comment by selbstgerechtein (U7048)
posted 3 minutes ago
So you haven’t got an answer as to why with a system problem we have the best defence in the country at home then 👍

As I suspected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So do you have the best home defence in the country? (If there is such a thing) Or are statistics only part of the story?

posted on 29/12/17

Ah, so you are one of them who only like stats that help you.

Got ya.

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