Stop asking people to use discrimination for that purpose
=====
I'm not asking. It's already happening. If you have a problem with that then leave this forum and volunteer for GB News or Tommy Robinson's ape brigade.

AA is racist. People should be selected on their educational achievements and not on the basis of the colour of their skin.
======
That's right, and that not happening is exactly why AA came into existence. Fecking genius.

If everything was based on merit and achievement, we would never have needed AA to begin with. If we lived in a meritocracy then we wouldn't need AA.

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 25 minutes ago

Mamba's trying to gaslight.

He's not happy black students are outperforming their white peers at state schools, it scares him.
=======

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 23 minutes ago
In 2022

- 32.2% of white people were accepted to higher education – the lowest entry rate
- 50.6 of black people were accepted into higher education

Between 2006 and 2022

- The biggest increase in the entry rate was for black people, from 21.6% to 50.6%
- The smallest increase was for white people, from 21.8% to 32.2%

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And...

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 29 minutes ago
Mamba's trying to gaslight.

He's not happy black students are outperforming their white peers at state schools, it scares him.

He's so attached to his justice warrior identity that it's terryfing for him if there's no oppressed black folk to advocate for.

These types can't tell the difference between historical racism and current racism, this is why statues get pulled down. This is why he spends a ridiculous amount of time posting on here instead of volunteering in struggling communities where he might get to see it's a classism issue in this Country and not a racial one.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Echo Chamber(U23154)
member since: 14 March 2024

Sat Nav? Is that you saan?

"where he might get to see it's a classism issue in this Country and not a racial one."


This is definitely you Sat Nav. You left your mark on the crime scene. And also left fingerprints and DNA. You may as well have left a note saying it was you.

SatNav, you certainly provided a lot of links, as well as a recommendation that I read a book written by a renowned conservative writer, who supported Trump and is well know for his hostility to the Civil Rights movement, let alone affirmative action. What I was after was something more concrete: evidence that the effect of AA is resulting in a lack of access to elite education for Asian Americans. My point is that Asian Americans are by a substantial distance the most over-represented demographic in Ivy League universities, relative to their proportion in the country as a whole. (See the numbers here: https://blog.collegevine.com/the-demographics-of-the-ivy-league)

You contend that any kind of positive discrimination is inherently and beyond argument racist. I would counter that one really has to define racism more precisely in order to arrive at that conclusion. For you racism is quite simply making any judgement based on race. For me a more meaningful understanding of racism is a power dynamic in which the rights or opportunities of communities and the individuals within them are curbed as a result of their ethnic identity. Through this paradigm I would tend to say that Asian Americans as a community do not face the kinds of systemic barriers to advancement that black and hispanic Americans do - though there are contexts in which white privilege kicks in. I would say that there can be a broad social good in making elite institutions more representative of the demographic breakdown of a society as a whole, creating pathways for members of underrepresented communities to aspire to success and challenging stereotypes about what successful people look like. Of course, at an individual level, with a finite number of places in such institutions, that means that some people who are well qualified don't get in. But that's always the reality of elite institutions: you will always have ten times as many perfectly qualified applicants as places, and I struggle to believe that the beneficiaries of AA lack the intellectual capacity to thrive in an Ivy League environment. Every year thousands of rejected Oxbridge applicants get maximum marks in their A-levels. They're all clever enough to go to Oxbridge. If you were to test them, VAR style, to the fraction of the millimetre, perhaps you could rank them objectively and impartially. But in doing so, you might find that the cream of the crop was more disproportionately balanced toward private school kids than others - and then one faces the same question of whether they are really better, brighter, and more deserving, or whether they have been better equipped at the age of 18 to jump this particular hurdle.

It's my observation that people from less advantaged backgrounds who get to experience elite education often go on to more impressive achievements thereafter - because, even if they were objectively weaker candidates at the point of entry (having had less access to tutoring etc.) they still needed extraordinary ability to be at the front of the queue to benefit from those few opportunities based on AA or Oxbridge outreach to comprehensive schools.

Like most things, 'meritocracy' is more complex than it might seem at first glance. I don't subscribe to the idea of the undeserving poor, that working class people are inherently thicker or lazier or less talented than upper class people, nor do I believe that some ethnic groups are smarter than others. Society will never ensure that everyone has the same opportunities. But I broadly welcome its attempts to mitigate structures that lock out whole groups. So, going back to the original point about defining racism: I don't think American society is generally locking out Asian Americans or white people, which is why I dispute your contention that affirmative action is self-evidently racist in relation to them.

It certainly discriminates on the basis of class, and that affects working class students of any race. But that's perhaps another conversation, about the need to provide top level education to more people, and about the pernicious effect of having a handful of traditional universities acting a gatekeepers to establishment jobs.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
comment by The Mamba School of Genius (U1282)
posted 6 hours, 38 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 0 seconds ago
comment by The Mamba School of Genius (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 31 minutes ago
Mate - you’re being silly, childish and wasting my time.

I’ll leave you with this - instead of pushing others down, you pull those in need up (but not at the expense of others!)

So you change the grass roots of the problems. You don’t punish Asian or white kids at university level. Help the poor communities thrive by improving their early educational opportunities, remove all identifiers from CVs, things like that.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I didn't see this as you presenting an alternative.

Mainly because you oppose many grassroot changes as well, for the same reason you're opposing affirmative action. Don't be disingenuous with your position from issue to issue.

AA doesn't punish anyone in the same way as missing out on a job is not punishment. If evidence proves that something or some process is racist, we should move to enforce equality without being accused of being the racists ourselves.

Also, is it OK to improve their early educational opportunities by forcing schools to reflect diversity in their admissions? Or can schools admit whoever they want?

Doesn't removing identifiers take away an advantage from white people? In that the employer or university will not know they're the white applicants they should give priority consideration?

Also, are you seriously saying we should just change the grassroots and then wait 30-50 years for the benefits to come through while racism continues unabated?

Obviously, you're not in a hurry. You like to do things 30-50 years at a time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/higher-education/entry-rates-into-higher-education/latest/#:~:text=Between%202006%20and%202022%3A,%2C%20from%2021.8%25%20to%2032.2%25

I’m glad you’re not in a position to enact the policies that you want and I’m also glad that the US got rid of those policies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you’re consistent with your opinions and given that you want a case by case basis on what is needed, we should have quotas for white people getting into higher education right? I wouldn’t want that, but I assume you would given the data above?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you think that data means in your view? Doesn't seem to mean what you think IMO. Rates and percentages always need looking into. We could be talking about 5 people here. And it's about increases and decreases and also rate is a percentage of which white people are the majority. It also doesn't prove that anyone is suffering because of AA.

You'll need a lot more than that to say what you say.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It shows that the lowest acceptance rate is white so as I said, I’m sure you’re all for helping those most in need, right?

It also shows that white is the smallest increase, so they need help, right? Something like AA, right?

You’ll avoid directly answering this as per usual.



It’s not 5 people lol it’s UCAS data so over 750,000 in 2022. This trend has been well-documented for years I remember Andrew Neil pointing to this data to a black trans lady who is said the country is irredeemably racist etc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This data is probably skewed if this is for the UK. Universities are relying more on students from abroad as they can charge more then use that income to subsidise UK national students paying a lower fee.

SatNav, you certainly provided a lot of links, as well as a recommendation that I read a book written by a renowned conservative writer, who supported Trump and is well know for his hostility to the Civil Rights movement, let alone affirmative action.
=====
Hostility to civil rights movement?

Don't talk like that about Sat Nav/Echo Chamber's hero. He can't go a week without bringing him up and telling us how right he is about everything.

Fields Of Anfield. You're right on the broader point. Foreign students are basically the most important income stream for UK universities, generating multiple times more revenue per capita than British entrants.

Patel/Braverman making it harder for such students to get visas, work while here, stay on afterwards, have family members with them while here, etc. was one of the most economically illiterate things the Tories have done since 2010 (though I guess it ranks below Austerity and Brexit).

But in doing so, you might find that the cream of the crop was more disproportionately balanced toward private school kids than others -
======
I was in Zambia for work a few months ago and as it turns out, kids from public schools are admitted with a lower threshold than those from public schools. I gathered that kids from public school who really excel are seen as the gems. Secondary schools and universities fight over them.

That's in Zambia which is more homogenous than us and they still need to do these things because if inequalities and society.

Sat Nav talks about class but in the west class and race are inseparable to a large extent because of the historical racism. As it turns out people who are racially oppressed always end up at the bottom of the class pyramid and those who benefit from that oppression are always at the top of the class pyramid. Therefore, class and race cannot be separated. Minorities are disproportionately represented in the lower class and majorities overrepresented in the higher class.

*was in Zambia for work a few months ago and as it turns out, kids from public schools are admitted with a lower threshold than those from private schools.

comment by The Mamba School of Genius (U1282)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
"where he might get to see it's a classism issue in this Country and not a racial one."


This is definitely you Sat Nav. You left your mark on the crime scene. And also left fingerprints and DNA. You may as well have left a note saying it was you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
You fail yet again Mambinator. Off the shoulder lol

comment by The Mamba School of Genius (U1282)
As it turns out people who are racially oppressed always end up at the bottom of the class pyramid
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You were just given stats that showed white people are at the bottom of the pyramid educationally.

You literally cannot accept that black students outperform white students in state schools.

It's there, undeniable, and yet you still put black people at the bottom of the pyramid instead of giving them recognition.

If they aren't at the bottom of that pyramid all the time invested in your justice warrior identity is wasted. And this is more important to you that doing something to actually help people. You're an insincere person.

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by The Mamba School of Genius (U1282)
As it turns out people who are racially oppressed always end up at the bottom of the class pyramid
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You were just given stats that showed white people are at the bottom of the pyramid educationally.

You literally cannot accept that black students outperform white students in state schools.

It's there, undeniable, and yet you still put black people at the bottom of the pyramid instead of giving them recognition.

If they aren't at the bottom of that pyramid all the time invested in your justice warrior identity is wasted. And this is more important to you that doing something to actually help people. You're an insincere person.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone didn't learn their lesson after being banned twice in the space of a day.

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeaedetly and expecting a different result.

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This data is probably skewed if this is for the UK. Universities are relying more on students from abroad as they can charge more then use that income to subsidise UK national students paying a lower fee.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The data is on state schools in the UK wtf does that have to do with foreign students?

Stop gaslighting black students for their achievements already. They are outperforming white students at state schools.

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeaedetly and expecting a different result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm expecting to get banned.

That's what happens when I show you up for the idiot you are like I just did in the post above.

Hence why this is an echo chamber numbnuts, you just can't hear the truth.

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This data is probably skewed if this is for the UK. Universities are relying more on students from abroad as they can charge more then use that income to subsidise UK national students paying a lower fee.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The data is on state schools in the UK wtf does that have to do with foreign students?

Stop gaslighting black students for their achievements already. They are outperforming white students at state schools.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't referring.to state schools stupid. I'm talking about university admissions and AA.

comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeaedetly and expecting a different result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm expecting to get banned.

That's what happens when I show you up for the idiot you are like I just did in the post above.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah you get banned because of that

Delusion and insanity are best mates. You're obviously familiar with both.

What's funny is not only do you carry the weight of the World on your shoulders, you've also added some made up weight on top

Must be exhausting

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't referring.to state schools stupid. I'm talking about university admissions and AA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah mate, you were talking about the data that was posted on it. Trying to undermine it because you without the oppression narrative you have nothing to do with your life.

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/higher-education/entry-rates-into-higher-education/latest/#:~:text=Between%202006%20and%202022%3A,%2C%20from%2021.8%25%20to%2032.2%25


---------------
This data is probably skewed if this is for the UK. Universities are relying more on students from abroad as they can charge more then use that income to subsidise UK national students paying a lower fee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Echo Chamber (U23154)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeaedetly and expecting a different result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm expecting to get banned.

That's what happens when I show you up for the idiot you are like I just did in the post above.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah you get banned because of that

Delusion and insanity are best mates. You're obviously familiar with both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh I did.

I got my post removed and banned for calling Mamba the chief disinformation officer on ja606 and you his right hand man

You only have to look on here to see that's 100% accurate