comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
SatNav, I've already explained twice that I was making the point that you were citing a very partisan voice on this topic. His provocative stance on the movement that ended segregation and his support for the orange racist were two examples I gave to illustrate the point *not* that he's a wаnker, but that this isn't an even-handed introduction to the topic, but a very tendentious commentator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’ve responded twice but not answered. Why Trump? You could have made the point that, in your opinion, he is biased and an uneven commentator (which again is completely irrelevant, argue against his ideas and data not his political ideology!), without mentioning Trump. But you chose to use Trump and I think it is clear why.

So then, what assertions or conclusions of Sowell’s do you disagree with with regards to affirmative action. Which of his global data points do you refute with regards to affirmative action?


You don’t have any answers to that because you disgraced his immediately.

And to answer your earlier question about whether I have looked at data and arguments in support of AA, yes I have. Which is why I said, quite clearly, that when it comes to the debate as to whether people can suffer from a proposed mismatch from AA, the data is very much inconclusive. The vast majority of people benefit from top tier education, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive. I am an advocate for top tier education so I will always support more people having access to it. I just don’t want it to be at the expense of others on the basis of their race.

What a horrible man I am, eh?

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 10 minutes ago
But I did. Taking identifiers off CVs has probably one of the biggest impacts on equality when if comes to hiring.
====
No it doesn't, and in this context is an extremely stoopid suggestion because it only tackles employers bias at the point of applying for a job. It does nothing for any other forms of racism and does nothing for historical racism which has led to some people having better CVs than others.

A better CV is a better CV, with or without the name so you're not really addressing the age old problem that made us invent affirmative action, mainly because of the warped manner in which you view it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said one of not the only. Learn to read ffs.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
SatNav, I've already explained twice that I was making the point that you were citing a very partisan voice on this topic. His provocative stance on the movement that ended segregation and his support for the orange racist were two examples I gave to illustrate the point *not* that he's a wаnker, but that this isn't an even-handed introduction to the topic, but a very tendentious commentator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’ve responded twice but not answered. Why Trump? You could have made the point that, in your opinion, he is biased and an uneven commentator (which again is completely irrelevant, argue against his ideas and data not his political ideology!), without mentioning Trump. But you chose to use Trump and I think it is clear why.

So then, what assertions or conclusions of Sowell’s do you disagree with with regards to affirmative action. Which of his global data points do you refute with regards to affirmative action?


You don’t have any answers to that because you disgraced his immediately.

And to answer your earlier question about whether I have looked at data and arguments in support of AA, yes I have. Which is why I said, quite clearly, that when it comes to the debate as to whether people can suffer from a proposed mismatch from AA, the data is very much inconclusive. The vast majority of people benefit from top tier education, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive. I am an advocate for top tier education so I will always support more people having access to it. I just don’t want it to be at the expense of others on the basis of their race.

What a horrible man I am, eh?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Disregard him

, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive
=======
But demanding environments and a lack of capability are not racist factors as they apply to everyone the same, so we don't need to consider those as they are their own equaliser.

We are dealing with variables that are subject to race, here. Drive and capability are not, unless you're suggesting that minorities that benefit from AA are lacking in drive and capability.

Is that what you're suggesting?

I'm not going round in another circle on this one, SatNav. Clear that any attempt to explain my POV will be futile and further entrench your view of me. You go on defending the meritocracy and opposing racism (and I guess, best of luck to working class people of colour).

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 51 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 10 hours, 57 minutes ago
Doesn’t really matter. Unless you’re denying you’ve ever voted for them, and are going to pretend that all of your arguments aren’t straight out of the conservative playbook, the point still stands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's fascinating that so many people who hold conservative views see themselves as apolitical and basically following common sense where it takes them, while viewing those who disagree with them as tribal and dogmatic to the point of assuming bad faith (see also "if you are as interested in this as you make out to be" ).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow I think I have seriously overestimated you.

Whomever Kobbie The King Mainoo is, he is doing exactly what you describe. Talking generally Tory this and Tory that. What a truly dreadful example to align with to make whatever point you’re trying to make.

This guy literally just came on saying ‘imagine a Tory saying this’ I replied saying I am an individual with my own opinions on things, he comes out with the above contradictory nonsense and you try to agree with him.

Is there anything more tribal than jumping into a conversation and saying Tory this, Tory that. Tories don’t think that way.

Incredible stuff really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This phenomenon is widely discussed in political science. And there are thousands of articles in which left-wingers talk about how we need to be much more effective at communicating like the Right is: sounding less ideological, less 'political', putting things more in everyday, commonsense language. It's a rhetorical disadvantage for the left that lefties tend to want to change things, and therefore recognise the political nature of their views, while conservatives don't want change, aren't troubled by existing hierarchies, and more naturally therefore don't couch their ideological positions in ideological language. This is objectively true and can be described without attaching value judgements. Only we did atrach the value judgement because we think you're сunts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems to be upset that I find his bad faith arguments laughable. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Tories are ideologically opposed to the comments he’s made. So he’s either stupid because he supports a political philosophy that is completely at odds with this, or he’s a liar. My suspicion is it’s both.

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 50 seconds ago
, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive
=======
But demanding environments and a lack of capability are not racist factors as they apply to everyone the same, so we don't need to consider those as they are their own equaliser.

We are dealing with variables that are subject to race, here. Drive and capability are not, unless you're suggesting that minorities that benefit from AA are lacking in drive and capability.

Is that what you're suggesting?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor attempt.

Let me explain the theory slowly and simply for you as per usual Mambinator.

Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.

The theory then goes on to say that it can lead to lower performance or dropping out entirely. But this is by no means concluded.

Understand now big man? Their race has nothing to do with it: black, white, Asian. It’s their academic aptitude from the outset.

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.
=====
But that used to happen before as well, with white people getting undeserved positions or perks simply because they're white and then being unable to handle the position.

What's you point again? What do you want us to do about it now that it's minorities that might get these opportunities?

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going round in another circle on this one, SatNav. Clear that any attempt to explain my POV will be futile and further entrench your view of me. You go on defending the meritocracy and opposing racism (and I guess, best of luck to working class people of colour).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought as much.

You continue to argue the person, not the content. It’s a really….erm…..good way to debate and learn

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 50 seconds ago
, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive
=======
But demanding environments and a lack of capability are not racist factors as they apply to everyone the same, so we don't need to consider those as they are their own equaliser.

We are dealing with variables that are subject to race, here. Drive and capability are not, unless you're suggesting that minorities that benefit from AA are lacking in drive and capability.

Is that what you're suggesting?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor attempt.

Let me explain the theory slowly and simply for you as per usual Mambinator.

Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.

The theory then goes on to say that it can lead to lower performance or dropping out entirely. But this is by no means concluded.

Understand now big man? Their race has nothing to do with it: black, white, Asian. It’s their academic aptitude from the outset.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you're saying. It's the point or relevancy that's missing.

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 40 seconds ago
Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.
=====
But that used to happen before as well, with white people getting undeserved positions or perks simply because they're white and then being unable to handle the position.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
And that bullsheet is why we invented AA.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going round in another circle on this one, SatNav. Clear that any attempt to explain my POV will be futile and further entrench your view of me. You go on defending the meritocracy and opposing racism (and I guess, best of luck to working class people of colour).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought as much.

You continue to argue the person, not the content. It’s a really….erm…..good way to debate and learn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You brought him up so him and his character are fair game if we're gonna be taking advise from him

"Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset."

Is there anything to back this up or is this just opinion being posed as fact?

comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 14 seconds ago
"Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset."

Is there anything to back this up or is this just opinion being posed as fact?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's nothing. And even if there was it still wouldn't change anything or be a reason to stop AA.

comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 51 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 10 hours, 57 minutes ago
Doesn’t really matter. Unless you’re denying you’ve ever voted for them, and are going to pretend that all of your arguments aren’t straight out of the conservative playbook, the point still stands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's fascinating that so many people who hold conservative views see themselves as apolitical and basically following common sense where it takes them, while viewing those who disagree with them as tribal and dogmatic to the point of assuming bad faith (see also "if you are as interested in this as you make out to be" ).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow I think I have seriously overestimated you.

Whomever Kobbie The King Mainoo is, he is doing exactly what you describe. Talking generally Tory this and Tory that. What a truly dreadful example to align with to make whatever point you’re trying to make.

This guy literally just came on saying ‘imagine a Tory saying this’ I replied saying I am an individual with my own opinions on things, he comes out with the above contradictory nonsense and you try to agree with him.

Is there anything more tribal than jumping into a conversation and saying Tory this, Tory that. Tories don’t think that way.

Incredible stuff really.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This phenomenon is widely discussed in political science. And there are thousands of articles in which left-wingers talk about how we need to be much more effective at communicating like the Right is: sounding less ideological, less 'political', putting things more in everyday, commonsense language. It's a rhetorical disadvantage for the left that lefties tend to want to change things, and therefore recognise the political nature of their views, while conservatives don't want change, aren't troubled by existing hierarchies, and more naturally therefore don't couch their ideological positions in ideological language. This is objectively true and can be described without attaching value judgements. Only we did atrach the value judgement because we think you're сunts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He seems to be upset that I find his bad faith arguments laughable. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Tories are ideologically opposed to the comments he’s made. So he’s either stupid because he supports a political philosophy that is completely at odds with this, or he’s a liar. My suspicion is it’s both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it beyond your ability to understand that you can agree with some elements of a party and not others but on the weight of things choose that party? Yes I’m sure that’s way above your level of thinking.

I’ve not even bothered to go into your daft, unsubstantiated vague assertions that Tories are racist and want to keep the poor, poor.


Not that you want to know because if you did have even a modicum of curiosity as to how someone different to you thinks or votes because you are ignorant and closed-minded. I have tended to vote based on economics and also the individual party leader. Which is why I will probably vote for Starmer in the upcoming election because (whilst I think it unlikely) I don’t like coalitions, I think they are weak governments.

He’s not a true Labour man, a New Labour man but that aligns with what I want more than a Corbyn type would.

I didn’t vote for Boris and I didn’t vote for Sunak obviously. I voted against Corbyn in 2017 not really in favour of May but better than Corbyn.

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 6 minutes ago
Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.
=====
But that used to happen before as well, with white people getting undeserved positions or perks simply because they're white and then being unable to handle the position.

What's you point again? What do you want us to do about it now that it's minorities that might get these opportunities?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigh

I’ve already said that this isn’t my belief and that most people benefit from higher standards of education.

I don’t support doing anything to influence these things by race, that’s you.

Here’s the difference between you and I:

Sat Nav - White people doing the worst - l don’t want quotas

Sat Nav - ethnic minority ‘a’ doing the worst - I don’t want quotas


Mamba - ethnic minority ‘a’ doing the worst - I want AA type quotas

Mamba - white people doing the worst - ????????

I’ve not even bothered to go into your daft, unsubstantiated vague assertions that Tories are racist and want to keep the poor, poor.
———


It’s only unsubstantiated if you have been living under a rock your whole life.

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 50 seconds ago
, there will be examples where some people fail from being in an environment that is too demanding of their drive or capabilities but this is why it’s inconclusive
=======
But demanding environments and a lack of capability are not racist factors as they apply to everyone the same, so we don't need to consider those as they are their own equaliser.

We are dealing with variables that are subject to race, here. Drive and capability are not, unless you're suggesting that minorities that benefit from AA are lacking in drive and capability.

Is that what you're suggesting?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Poor attempt.

Let me explain the theory slowly and simply for you as per usual Mambinator.

Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset.

The theory then goes on to say that it can lead to lower performance or dropping out entirely. But this is by no means concluded.

Understand now big man? Their race has nothing to do with it: black, white, Asian. It’s their academic aptitude from the outset.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you're saying. It's the point or relevancy that's missing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a theory relating to the topic we’re discussing? How are you struggling to see the relevance?

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going round in another circle on this one, SatNav. Clear that any attempt to explain my POV will be futile and further entrench your view of me. You go on defending the meritocracy and opposing racism (and I guess, best of luck to working class people of colour).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought as much.

You continue to argue the person, not the content. It’s a really….erm…..good way to debate and learn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You brought him up so him and his character are fair game if we're gonna be taking advise from him
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But not his ideas or data? Ok then Coolio. You’ll also do well with that level of thinking.

comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by FieldsofAnfieldRd (U18971)
posted 14 seconds ago
"Students with lower grades get into higher level universities due to AA programs. With me yes?

Then those students may at times struggle with the level of difficulty at said university because their grades didn’t match from the outset."

Is there anything to back this up or is this just opinion being posed as fact?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's nothing. And even if there was it still wouldn't change anything or be a reason to stop AA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
🤣 is that clown seriously asking for data? He couldn’t understand the last set of data 🤡 🤣

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by Mamba the Chief Disinformation Officer on JA606 (U1282)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going round in another circle on this one, SatNav. Clear that any attempt to explain my POV will be futile and further entrench your view of me. You go on defending the meritocracy and opposing racism (and I guess, best of luck to working class people of colour).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought as much.

You continue to argue the person, not the content. It’s a really….erm…..good way to debate and learn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You brought him up so him and his character are fair game if we're gonna be taking advise from him
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But not his ideas or data? Ok then Coolio. You’ll also do well with that level of thinking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say his ideas could not be discussed. I merely pointed out that his character is also relevant in the discussion if brought up.

And did you just call me Coolio?

comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
I’ve not even bothered to go into your daft, unsubstantiated vague assertions that Tories are racist and want to keep the poor, poor.
———


It’s only unsubstantiated if you have been living under a rock your whole life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, the Robbing school of vagary. No specifics, no reasoning, no examples.

You represent your ideology so well, it’s a cliché at this point.

comment by Coolio (U1282)
posted 44 seconds ago
And did you just call me Coolio?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heheh autocorrect capitalised it. May he rest in piece x

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 47 seconds ago
comment by Coolio (U1282)
posted 44 seconds ago
And did you just call me Coolio?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heheh autocorrect capitalised it. May he rest in piece x
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Utter legend