Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I for one am sick of seeing Reina diving.
Dr Seven,
I wish Friedel would dive a bit more.
Redman,
The player who gets booked the most is not normally the dirtiest player in the league. I think Crouch is quite high up in the bad boy's list, but he's hardly Chopper Harris, is he?
Drogba's antics last night rank right up there with rivaldo's corner flag routine, the man is just a blatant cheat, no if's buts or maybes.........................drogba = disgrace.
Earl Brutus,
Absolutely. And as i said in my very fisrt post on this thread....
"To dive is one thing, but to cry wolf with a fake head/face injury is just sick.
Not only that, but to fake a head/face injury, & then be caught on camera playing peekaboo to try to establish whether your con has worked, is nothing but a pathetic, embarrassing, act. Shame on Drogba".
I remember Didier Drogba once going down holding his face over the touchline, before rolling back onto the pitch to ensure that the game was stopped.
Dr Seven
Taggart has now filtered me.
You are correct, I wasn't stiring it.
My whole take on it is that there were too many different factors involved for anyone specific person, or group of persons to take the blame.
It has always been my belief that if there was any cover up, some of it might just not be what Liverpool fans want to hear.
I believe that you weren't stirring it, it's just that usually when people are stirring it, they start off with relatively innocent-sounding questions before descending into bile.
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear? IMO, if there was any evidence that Liverpool fans were in any way culpable, it would have been released along with all the bullshït about Liverpool fans forcing the opening security gate etc.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
Dr Seven
Taggart has now filtered me.
You are correct, I wasn't stiring it.
My whole take on it is that there were too many different factors involved for anyone specific person, or group of persons to take the blame.
It has always been my belief that if there was any cover up, some of it might just not be what Liverpool fans want to hear.
----------------------------------------
Vidic - it is not about if there was a cover up, there WAS a cover up and Liverpool fans and especially the families who had relatives killed, DO want to hear it coming out, not that they don't already know but that they want closure. The cover up was made to cover the police, this has been confirmed in the leaked document from the BBC, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
The report discovered that the police were at fault, the police covered that up and tried to pin the blame on the supporters. This is fact, there is no debate. What is left is closure for everybody and an apology, which will happen when the documents are released.
Also bear in mind, that some documents were reported to have 'went missing' when they passed police hands. Furthermore during police reports there are corrections made by senior officers, so as police will not be blamed. These are facts and people seem oblivious to this, especially people trying to point score.
This will all come out, then people like yourself will have to accept the fact that the corrupt police of the time covered it up and misled the government to what happened.
This is not the only problem, a major problem is how the cases of the dead were dealt with in a court which dealt a cut-off time. Absolutely ridiculous that there should be a cut off time, especially when there have been deaths which are certain to have occurred after the cut-off time.
Families were told, crushing was the cause of death, even when their relatives were found on the pitch, due to this cut-off time, which is wrong. The families need closure and to get this the information, including the cover up, needs to be released, not let go, as you suggest.
As I suspected - every team's fans think the other teams are the worst - THEY ARE ALL AT IT!!!!
(p.s. 'He got banned for racism but you's reckon he's no racist.' I think he got banned for rasist abuse, not racism - there is a suttle difference - like threatening behavour and actually hitting someone!)
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear?
...................
Sure.
I think, having been a regular attendee at football matches at that time, that a fair few fans were there without tickets, and had had a few to drink.
Been there and done it myself, and seen what goes on, and I think it ould be very naive to think this was not the case.
Do I think they are to blame?
No I do not, but I think they were one of many, many factors as to why this tragedy happened.
CutMeAndIBleedRed
(p.s. 'He got banned for racism but you's reckon he's no racist.' I think he got banned for rasist abuse, not racism - there is a suttle difference - like threatening behavour and actually hitting someone
==================
I dont think your example is like for like. I dont think Racism is to Racist, is the same as threatening behavour is to actually hitting someone
You can use racism to be racist, but you cant use threatening behaviour to actually inflict physical harm on someone.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear?
...................
Sure.
I think, having been a regular attendee at football matches at that time, that a fair few fans were there without tickets, and had had a few to drink.
Been there and done it myself, and seen what goes on, and I think it ould be very naive to think this was not the case.
Do I think they are to blame?
No I do not, but I think they were one of many, many factors as to why this tragedy happened.
---------------------------------------
Many many many MANY football matches before and after Hillsborough had fans in the ground who had had a drink, what the other matches didn't have however was police, pointing fans into an already crowded pen and opening a gate to let more fans into it. So regardless of whether fans are drunk or not, police made the mistake and this has been confirmed in the Taylor report which went unopposed.
TOOR
As usual, you are missing the point.
I accept the police played a major part in this.
I do not accept it was entirely down to them though.
And I have always thought that if the Government released their findings on this, that would be the case.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
TOOR
As usual, you are missing the point.
I accept the police played a major part in this.
I do not accept it was entirely down to them though.
And I have always thought that if the Government released their findings on this, that would be the case.
---------------------------------------
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
This had happened before in similar circumstances many years before, we too many fans were crowded into one space and police forced them back into the stand when they spilled onto the pitch and eventually the stand collapsed and killed many.
It was decided then, that there was a danger to fans, nothing was ever done about it. But yes, let's all blame alcohol and ticketless fans, if the police and the medcia can get away with it, why can't you, ey?
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
....................
TOOR
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
....................
TOOR
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
---------------------------------------------
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster. In fact how does a ticketless fan enter a stadium? If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster.
....................
So am I.
But I do think they were one of the contributing factors of it, all be it a minor one.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster.
....................
So am I.
But I do think they were one of the contributing factors of it, all be it a minor one.
--------------------------------
That maybe so, I cannot tell one way or the other but I do believe in a case as sensitive as this one, one should not really bring other factors and accusations into the equation, without being absolutely certain of it. Especially on articles like the one you were filtered from, as obviously people can take it the wrong way.
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
==========================================
Chinny, there are ticketless fans at every big event.
There are ticketless fans at Wimbledon every year, and on occasion they've had to take crowd-control measures in order to manage it. I've personally witnessed it. That is what crowd-control measures are for.
You are missing the point, as you so often do.
South Yorkshire Police quoted things that happen at all such events , and tried to make them causal. (which the Taylor report subsequently found no evidence of).
I've seen United fans boasting they took 70,000 fans to Barcelona for the 99 final, but United didn't have 70,000 tickets, and Iticketless fans were interviewed on TV. It happens at all big events .
And drinking? Yes, there would have been fans drinking, because there would have been fans drinking before every single match that day. But there is no evidence whatsoever that it was causal.
If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
.......................
Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take this as a slight to your club, because it is not meant this way.
If you, or I were one of the ticketless fans in the stadium that day and survived, how much guilt would you feel?
Hypothetical I know, but I would feel guilty as hell.
Anyhow, that is enough with this, it is going to get done to death in the coming weeks, and by some of our fans that will be purely on the WUM.
comment by Kemlyn Road (U10652)
posted 3 minutes ago
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
==========================================
Chinny, there are ticketless fans at every big event.
............
That was my point Kemlyn.
I will leave this now because it is not going to achieve anything.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
.......................
Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take this as a slight to your club, because it is not meant this way.
If you, or I were one of the ticketless fans in the stadium that day and survived, how much guilt would you feel?
Hypothetical I know, but I would feel guilty as hell.
Anyhow, that is enough with this, it is going to get done to death in the coming weeks, and by some of our fans that will be purely on the WUM.
-----------------------------
I would perhaps feel guilt but it is only natural when you are involved in some sort of event which could have been avoided to look at yourself. But I'm sure there were people in higher places who felt much more of that guilt and had to carry it with them to their graves.
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Diving
Page 5 of 12
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posted on 15/3/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/3/12
I for one am sick of seeing Reina diving.
posted on 15/3/12
Dr Seven,
I wish Friedel would dive a bit more.
Redman,
The player who gets booked the most is not normally the dirtiest player in the league. I think Crouch is quite high up in the bad boy's list, but he's hardly Chopper Harris, is he?
posted on 15/3/12
Drogba's antics last night rank right up there with rivaldo's corner flag routine, the man is just a blatant cheat, no if's buts or maybes.........................drogba = disgrace.
posted on 15/3/12
Earl Brutus,
Absolutely. And as i said in my very fisrt post on this thread....
"To dive is one thing, but to cry wolf with a fake head/face injury is just sick.
Not only that, but to fake a head/face injury, & then be caught on camera playing peekaboo to try to establish whether your con has worked, is nothing but a pathetic, embarrassing, act. Shame on Drogba".
posted on 15/3/12
I remember Didier Drogba once going down holding his face over the touchline, before rolling back onto the pitch to ensure that the game was stopped.
posted on 15/3/12
Dr Seven
Taggart has now filtered me.
You are correct, I wasn't stiring it.
My whole take on it is that there were too many different factors involved for anyone specific person, or group of persons to take the blame.
It has always been my belief that if there was any cover up, some of it might just not be what Liverpool fans want to hear.
posted on 15/3/12
I believe that you weren't stirring it, it's just that usually when people are stirring it, they start off with relatively innocent-sounding questions before descending into bile.
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear? IMO, if there was any evidence that Liverpool fans were in any way culpable, it would have been released along with all the bullshït about Liverpool fans forcing the opening security gate etc.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
Dr Seven
Taggart has now filtered me.
You are correct, I wasn't stiring it.
My whole take on it is that there were too many different factors involved for anyone specific person, or group of persons to take the blame.
It has always been my belief that if there was any cover up, some of it might just not be what Liverpool fans want to hear.
----------------------------------------
Vidic - it is not about if there was a cover up, there WAS a cover up and Liverpool fans and especially the families who had relatives killed, DO want to hear it coming out, not that they don't already know but that they want closure. The cover up was made to cover the police, this has been confirmed in the leaked document from the BBC, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
The report discovered that the police were at fault, the police covered that up and tried to pin the blame on the supporters. This is fact, there is no debate. What is left is closure for everybody and an apology, which will happen when the documents are released.
Also bear in mind, that some documents were reported to have 'went missing' when they passed police hands. Furthermore during police reports there are corrections made by senior officers, so as police will not be blamed. These are facts and people seem oblivious to this, especially people trying to point score.
This will all come out, then people like yourself will have to accept the fact that the corrupt police of the time covered it up and misled the government to what happened.
This is not the only problem, a major problem is how the cases of the dead were dealt with in a court which dealt a cut-off time. Absolutely ridiculous that there should be a cut off time, especially when there have been deaths which are certain to have occurred after the cut-off time.
Families were told, crushing was the cause of death, even when their relatives were found on the pitch, due to this cut-off time, which is wrong. The families need closure and to get this the information, including the cover up, needs to be released, not let go, as you suggest.
posted on 15/3/12
As I suspected - every team's fans think the other teams are the worst - THEY ARE ALL AT IT!!!!
(p.s. 'He got banned for racism but you's reckon he's no racist.' I think he got banned for rasist abuse, not racism - there is a suttle difference - like threatening behavour and actually hitting someone!)
posted on 15/3/12
subtle
posted on 15/3/12
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear?
...................
Sure.
I think, having been a regular attendee at football matches at that time, that a fair few fans were there without tickets, and had had a few to drink.
Been there and done it myself, and seen what goes on, and I think it ould be very naive to think this was not the case.
Do I think they are to blame?
No I do not, but I think they were one of many, many factors as to why this tragedy happened.
posted on 15/3/12
CutMeAndIBleedRed
(p.s. 'He got banned for racism but you's reckon he's no racist.' I think he got banned for rasist abuse, not racism - there is a suttle difference - like threatening behavour and actually hitting someone
==================
I dont think your example is like for like. I dont think Racism is to Racist, is the same as threatening behavour is to actually hitting someone
You can use racism to be racist, but you cant use threatening behaviour to actually inflict physical harm on someone.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
Can I ask why you think it may be something that Liverpool fans might not want to hear?
...................
Sure.
I think, having been a regular attendee at football matches at that time, that a fair few fans were there without tickets, and had had a few to drink.
Been there and done it myself, and seen what goes on, and I think it ould be very naive to think this was not the case.
Do I think they are to blame?
No I do not, but I think they were one of many, many factors as to why this tragedy happened.
---------------------------------------
Many many many MANY football matches before and after Hillsborough had fans in the ground who had had a drink, what the other matches didn't have however was police, pointing fans into an already crowded pen and opening a gate to let more fans into it. So regardless of whether fans are drunk or not, police made the mistake and this has been confirmed in the Taylor report which went unopposed.
posted on 15/3/12
VC, fair enough.
posted on 15/3/12
TOOR
As usual, you are missing the point.
I accept the police played a major part in this.
I do not accept it was entirely down to them though.
And I have always thought that if the Government released their findings on this, that would be the case.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
TOOR
As usual, you are missing the point.
I accept the police played a major part in this.
I do not accept it was entirely down to them though.
And I have always thought that if the Government released their findings on this, that would be the case.
---------------------------------------
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
This had happened before in similar circumstances many years before, we too many fans were crowded into one space and police forced them back into the stand when they spilled onto the pitch and eventually the stand collapsed and killed many.
It was decided then, that there was a danger to fans, nothing was ever done about it. But yes, let's all blame alcohol and ticketless fans, if the police and the medcia can get away with it, why can't you, ey?
posted on 15/3/12
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
....................
TOOR
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
So what is your point? That fans were ticketless? Even when the unopposed Taylor report said differently?
....................
TOOR
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
---------------------------------------------
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster. In fact how does a ticketless fan enter a stadium? If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
posted on 15/3/12
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster.
....................
So am I.
But I do think they were one of the contributing factors of it, all be it a minor one.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
I don't think that, I however am inclined to agree with the report that said ticketless fans were not to blame for the disaster.
....................
So am I.
But I do think they were one of the contributing factors of it, all be it a minor one.
--------------------------------
That maybe so, I cannot tell one way or the other but I do believe in a case as sensitive as this one, one should not really bring other factors and accusations into the equation, without being absolutely certain of it. Especially on articles like the one you were filtered from, as obviously people can take it the wrong way.
posted on 15/3/12
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
==========================================
Chinny, there are ticketless fans at every big event.
There are ticketless fans at Wimbledon every year, and on occasion they've had to take crowd-control measures in order to manage it. I've personally witnessed it. That is what crowd-control measures are for.
You are missing the point, as you so often do.
South Yorkshire Police quoted things that happen at all such events , and tried to make them causal. (which the Taylor report subsequently found no evidence of).
I've seen United fans boasting they took 70,000 fans to Barcelona for the 99 final, but United didn't have 70,000 tickets, and Iticketless fans were interviewed on TV. It happens at all big events .
And drinking? Yes, there would have been fans drinking, because there would have been fans drinking before every single match that day. But there is no evidence whatsoever that it was causal.
posted on 15/3/12
If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
.......................
Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take this as a slight to your club, because it is not meant this way.
If you, or I were one of the ticketless fans in the stadium that day and survived, how much guilt would you feel?
Hypothetical I know, but I would feel guilty as hell.
Anyhow, that is enough with this, it is going to get done to death in the coming weeks, and by some of our fans that will be purely on the WUM.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Kemlyn Road (U10652)
posted 3 minutes ago
If you think that all the fans who went to Sheffied had tickets, then you are ether very naive, or not worth debating with.
==========================================
Chinny, there are ticketless fans at every big event.
............
That was my point Kemlyn.
I will leave this now because it is not going to achieve anything.
posted on 15/3/12
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
If there were ticketless fans in the stadium on that day, I can tell you how it was possible that they got in, the Police opened the gate!
.......................
Don't take this the wrong way, and don't take this as a slight to your club, because it is not meant this way.
If you, or I were one of the ticketless fans in the stadium that day and survived, how much guilt would you feel?
Hypothetical I know, but I would feel guilty as hell.
Anyhow, that is enough with this, it is going to get done to death in the coming weeks, and by some of our fans that will be purely on the WUM.
-----------------------------
I would perhaps feel guilt but it is only natural when you are involved in some sort of event which could have been avoided to look at yourself. But I'm sure there were people in higher places who felt much more of that guilt and had to carry it with them to their graves.
Page 5 of 12
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