Hypothetical I know, but I would feel guilty as hell.
============================================
I wouldn't know, maybe I would. Survivors of tragedies often feel gullt anyway, even if they couldn't possibly have been to blame. Nobody knows how many ticketless fans there were, nor how many of them were anywhere near the crush.

But the point is that there is no evidence it was caused by too many people getting in. The pens on either side of the central pen were half empty.

'I dont think your example is like for like. I dont think Racism is to Racist, is the same as threatening behavour is to actually hitting someone'

I said racist abuse not racism! It's all about the intent - using racist language does not make you a racist - treating people differently because of their race is racism.

For a better analogy, it's like calling woman 'babe' - does that mean you think women are inferior?!

CutMeAndIBleedRed,

But racist abuse to racism is still not comparative with threatening behaviour & actually physically harming someone.

That aside, in my eyes, racial abuse is racism - and i cannot for the life of me see how the 2 can be separated.

If i intentially abused a certain race, that is racist language, which is racism.

If i was to deliberately throw a brick through a window, you would have to say it was vandalism, and to deliberately cause an act of vandalism, that would make me a vandal - no doubt about it.

'That aside, in my eyes, racial abuse is racism - and i cannot for the life of me see how the 2 can be separated.'

I think that is the attitude that waters down the racism issue. Treating people differently because of their race is racist and abhorrent. Using racist language is offensive. Of course racists use racist language, but it doesn't follow that everyone who uses racist language is a racist.

If you call a player a fat b******d does that mean you hate fat people? What about a ginger t****er - do you hate ginger people? This is offensive language - fans find something that may offend an opponent player's and shout it at them. If you say I hate that player BECAUSE of the colour of their skin, you are an ignorant idiot.

I agree, it's a very hard to identify between the two - but I think in this case, the FA and Evra himself have done that for you - racist language NOT racist!

CutMeAndIBleedRed,

If you call a player a fat b******d does that mean you hate fat people? What about a ginger t****er - do you hate ginger people?

==============================

No, it doesn’t necessarily mean I hate fat or ginger people, but it does mean I was prejudice & that I am guilty of prejudism towards them. The very same as a racist language is a form of racism.

As for the FA concluding the situation, you are correct, they banned him for 8 games as he was guilty of it.

'I am guilty of prejudism towards them'

No you aren't at all! You are picking on them BECAUSE they play for another team not because of whatever you shout! Finding what offends someone and using that against them is not prejudice at all, because it could be ANYTHING - the colour of their hair, their weight, their enjoyment of pink socks, their penchant for a bouffant barnet! Saying you are then prejudice against what they find offensive is just ridiculous!

CutMeAndIBleedRed

Saying you are then prejudice against what they find offensive is just ridiculous!

=======================

But thats exactly what prejudism is, you are selecting something about someone that is either different, offensive or both.

Anyway, i can see our views differ on this so lets just agree to disagree.

Don't argue with Turkey, it's senseless. He's forever on the wind up and will disagree with anything a Liverpool fan says, no matter if he really agrees with it or not.

There'sOnlyOneReds,

'But thats exactly what prejudism is, you are selecting something about someone that is either different, offensive or both.'

Spot on, but you are seeing the wrong prejudice - your prejudice is against them for the team they support NOT for being fat, ginger etc - that is just the tool you use to offend them BECAUSE of the team they support!

This difference is where so many go wrong: racism is not rife in the terraces - teamism is and some awful, offence language is used to upset people over it!!

TOOR
Nomally i'd agree, but i think many make this subtle mistake - he can't disagree with this one, cos i'm right

comment by CutMeAndIBleedRed (U7593)
posted 1 minute ago
'But thats exactly what prejudism is, you are selecting something about someone that is either different, offensive or both.'

Spot on, but you are seeing the wrong prejudice - your prejudice is against them for the team they support NOT for being fat, ginger etc - that is just the tool you use to offend them BECAUSE of the team they support!

This difference is where so many go wrong: racism is not rife in the terraces - teamism is and some awful, offence language is used to upset people over it!!

TOOR
Nomally i'd agree, but i think many make this subtle mistake - he can't disagree with this one, cos i'm right
------------------------------
I agree that you're right but no way in hell will he not disagree with you.

He's in a bit of a dilemma here - he has to either disagree with me, which agrees with you - or disagree with you by agreeing with me!

Over to you Chicken.........

comment by CutMeAndIBleedRed (U7593)
posted 2 minutes ago
He's in a bit of a dilemma here - he has to either disagree with me, which agrees with you - or disagree with you by agreeing with me!

Over to you Chicken.........
-----------------------------

I dont know who i'm agreeing with or who i'm not, the short answer would be Suarez received an 8 month ban for racism, for me that makes him a racist - just the same as if my neighbour abused the spotty kid down the road, he would be guilty of being a prejudiced person, through prejudice abuse.

comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 10 seconds ago
I dont know who i'm agreeing with or who i'm not, the short answer would be Suarez received an 8 month ban for racism, for me that makes him a racist - just the same as if my neighbour abused the spotty kid down the road, he would be guilty of being a prejudiced person, through prejudice abuse.
-------------------------
He would also hate all spotty people and treat them differently from others, right?

I dont know, there is no such person - it was a pure fictional example.

comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 53 seconds ago

I dont know, there is no such person - it was a pure fictional example.
---------------------------
Great sidestep

"I dont know who i'm agreeing with or who i'm not, the short answer would be Suarez received an 8 month ban for racism"

Did he?

Its true, there is no spotty kid that i know of in my street, neither is there a known neighbour who is prejudice towards him.

'the short answer would be Suarez received an 8 month ban for racism, for me that makes him a racist'

No, that would be the wrong answer! He was banned for racist abuse!!! That is NOT racism! Just because one word contains a derivative from another does not mean they have the same meaning!


'just the same as if my neighbour abused the spotty kid down the road, he would be guilty of being a prejudiced person, through prejudice abuse.'

Rubbish! He would be guilty of abuse - it is only prejudice if he does it BECAUSE he is spotty! That would be like saying hitting a woman is sexism!

If you abuse a man because he slept with your wife, that is abuse. If you abuse a man who slept with your wife by calling him stingy Jew, that is racial abuse. If you abuse a man BECAUSE he is a Jew THEN you are racist!! You don't seem to understand the INTENT part of this!

8 months.



Oopsy.

CutMeAndIBleedRed,

Are you saying then, that Suarez called Evra a negrito as a term of endearment, opposed to abusing him?

'Are you saying then, that Suarez called Evra a negrito as a term of endearment, opposed to abusing him?'

Really?! Are you really not getting this or are you just not agreeing for the sake of it as TOOR says?

He DIDN'T call him that BECAUSE he is black!

Do you think he saw Evra and thought 'I don't like black people so i'm going to abuse him'? If you do then you think he is racist and you DON'T agree with the FA and Evra himself.

If, however you think he called Evra that BECAUSE he is a Man U player and wanted to wind him up - then you DON'T think he's a racist - you think he used racist language!!

(there is a final option that he used a word which in his native tongue doesn't have the same depth of meaning as it does in English and, although not used in a nice way, was not used in the serious way that others have labelled it)

8 months. Oopsy.

I didn't even spot it !

comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 8 minutes ago
CutMeAndIBleedRed,

Are you saying then, that Suarez called Evra a negrito as a term of endearment, opposed to abusing him?
---------------------------
He didn't call him 'negrito'. He asked him, "Por que negro" which means - 'why, Black?', in English.