Truth? Apology? Justice...Indemnification? Where does it stop?
===========================================
Tell you what then, lets take your family, put them up against a wall, crush them to death, then aportion balme to them, not give you any true information as to how or why it happened, and let you stew in your greif for 23 years, whilst continuing the innuendo against your dead family, and you.
I'm sure you would be more than happy to just accept what you were told, and simply get on with your life.
Maybe you should sign up for empathy classes.
Yes i'm clearly a WUM on an issue like this. That makes sense doesn't it? You need to stop being so rude. I've already explained why you aren't worth a lot of people's time and comprehension is not an issue. Thanks for the obvious concern though.
Like I said, keep making those faces, nobody can really see them.
666, this panel and Lord Taylor in his report both concluded that ticketless fans was not a contributory factor. If you have evidence to the contrary then you should present it or just shut the FU.
If on the other hand you are ignorantly still living in the fantasy world created by the sun surrounding this issue then you need to be aware that even they don't believe their version of 'the truth' anymore.
comment by jlou1978 (U15376)
posted 1 minute ago
Truth? Apology? Justice...Indemnification? Where does it stop?
===========================================
Tell you what then, lets take your family, put them up against a wall, crush them to death, then aportion balme to them, not give you any true information as to how or why it happened, and let you stew in your greif for 23 years, whilst continuing the innuendo against your dead family, and you.
I'm sure you would be more than happy to just accept what you were told, and simply get on with your life.
Maybe you should sign up for empathy classes.
--------------------------------------------------
And there we have it; you completely ignore the first part of my statement, take a comment out of context and make soundbites to make yourself feel big.
Congratulations!!
I do not agree that just because 164 police witnesses had had their statements changed that they are to blame. If I didn't know that my statement had been changed by a lawyer I would be non the wiser.
=========================================
How could so many witness statements have been covered up without any knowledge to those who made the statements? If they were not involved in the cover up at least one would have come forward to clear their name?
I'm not at all convinced by his opening gambit, TT.
You only have to consider the authors of this so-called "definitive" report into the disaster to see the conclusion was pretty much pre-ordained from the get-go. It apportions blame to the SYP, SWFC stewards and all agencies involved with the match but does not offer a single word against the Liverpool fans who absolutely DID contribute to the outcomes on that horrible, horrible day. A report without balance is a complete waste of ink; it carries as much weight as the original findings because it is exactly as partisan.
The truth, if anyone is actually interested in that anymore, lies somewhere in between the two, and I think everyone acknowldeges that on some level even if they're too scared to admit it publicly.
The only undoubted truth that is apparent to all is that those who died that day were the ones who were blameless; they were in, in plenty of time, and had no control whatsoever in the events. This isn't about trying to sully their memories, it's about apportioning blame FAIRLY for their deaths. Until certain quarters of Reds fans admit their part in this disaster, that will never happen so I ask again, what IS justice here?
I find it incredibly crass that today we have people on the liverpool board posting what amounts to:
"Yeah the police covered it up but it was still the fans fault"
That is not what has been revealed at all, that is not what was released yesterday and is doubly ignorant of the findings of the taylor report, I was hoping that yesterdays report would give people the impetus to look into the facts before coming on here and being insensitive..
The taylor report proved there was actually less fans in the leppings lane end than there was tickets sod, and it was also well under capacity
The police opened the gates but removed the stewards who were meant to direct crowd flow into the pens
(In short so far, they removed the crowd dispersal methods and thre the gate open to all and sundry)
The crowd was outside because the fans had turned up late, this was due to major roadworks on the way and police diversions, I would assume those climbing the walls did so because they heard the game was kicked off and they were stuck outside missing it!!
(So traffic flow was prevented causing a build up of fans (less than tickets sold) wanting to get into the stadium, hearing the game kicking off.)
When the exit gate was thrown open they entered via the exit corridor, this runs straight into the two central pens, eyewitness accounts recall that the area was like a tunnel with the pitch visible at one end, through the pens where the crush occured, there was no one controlling crowdflow in there or directing them round the sides to the other pens (which were not clearly visible)
So yes pushing wil have contributed, that's your only valid point, but if amass of people all push forward a small amount that is pretty quickly amplified to a large force, for instance it would take a lot of force for one person to push a car, but a lot of people a small amount of force each.
The failings were very much that of the police, the only thing the fans were guilty of was getting into the ground to see the match they had paid for..
It would seem even after the Prime Minister stands up in parliament, and says that in no way were Liverpool fans to blame, then the South Yorkshire Constabulary do the same, and the truth comes out after 23 years of lies and innuendo, this still isnt good enough for some idiots.
If you knowingly change a witness statement, for no other reason than to deflect blame from yourself, onto another person, you are perverting the course of justice, the sanctions against such actions carry a long custodial sentence.
I know full well that yesterdays findings dont suit the mindset of many on this forum, who would having rubbing their hands, and furiously posting articles if the documents released had in anyway pointed toward Liverpool fans being to blame, well they didnt, and the truth is there for all to see.
So even after this massive disclosure, and the truth being available for you to read for yourself, if like webbo, you have decided that you would still like to apportion blame to the fans who were at the ground that day, then shame on you.
OG?
Or would you value your job and support needed to feed your family?
Those high up in the Police would have issued a no talking to the media message. That is assuming that you knew you had had your statement changed.
It is easy for you to say why did they not come forward. They probably didn't know. Not saying they did but if it meant them keeping their job as a bog standard PC then I can understand why they didn't come forward.
It smells from higher up than the normal copper in this case.
I'm not saying I agree either that they shouldn't of come forward. It's just having the balls to do so
Yeah.. ok you all had tickets... I accept that now.
It was a figment of my imagination that I was asked if I had any spares.
Ok.. I've said enough now.
RIP the 96
Webbo I understand I just meant that it's likely they would have known but would have had the orders from above to keep schtum in fear of losing jobs etc.
Makes you wonder just what else is being covered up on a daily basis by the powers that be. How can anyone be trusted anymore.
Until certain quarters of Reds fans admit their part in this disaster,
========================================
The Taylor report concluded after reading tens of thousands of pages of manuscripts, eye witness statements, and legal documents, that Liverpool fans were in no way to blame for this disaster.
The Independent panel went through even more paper work, consoltation from any legal experts, and medical proffessionals, conclude the same, and obviously more besides, as regards the size of this cover up.
The Prime Minister apologizes to the families, the deceased, and the fans who were there that day, as they were in no way to blame, the South Yorkshire Police apologize likewise.
So all that time, effort, heartache, and fight for the truth, actually brings into the open, the undeniable truth, yet some sniveling little sh!tbag like you, continue with this type of ill informed, and downright wrong innuendo.
What a shameless little t0$$er you are.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Ok.. I've said enough now.
=========================
More than enough.
Webbo
You can say whatever you like,
I could fictionally say I was there and use it to support an argument. Infact anyone could.
But I think I would prefer to believe the findings of several throrough investigations into the incident rather than listen to you, 666 and your obvious agendas, perhaps you should stop and think about what impact your statements have? Especially in the way you phrase them,
On the day after fans are exonorated you claim they acted like dogs. I hope no one gullible sees your posts and follows your train of thought, and pray to god everyone will instead look to the FACTS rather than the opinions of one bitter little man pushing an agenda of hate
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The FACTS are out after 23 years of fighting for them by the Liverpool fans. I've taken this comment from another board because it's very fitting:
"Don't let your football tribalism over-rule your humanity"
Considering this is the same set of fans who contrived to get the whole of English football banned from European competition by crushing 39 people to death against a concrete wall only four years previously,
=====================================
There you go, all better now.
Better out than in as they say.
Strett you may well have seen these people or been asked for a spare ticket..
But the taylor report abosoloutley found that ticketless fans were not a cause. I can understand you saying people asked, that's fine, its to be expected, there always was larger travelling groups of fans who went in the hope they could get tickets and to take in the atmosphere, but its not like they were forcing entry every weekend, as you said, they were in the pub, is it so hard to believe that they stayed there to watch the match and take in the atmosphere.
Again the taylor report comprehensivley proved ticketless fans were not the problem, however of course there were some in the city to enjoy the atmosphere it was commonplace
666 we may have taken 30k to istanbul with an allocation fo 20k. 20k got into the ground 10k watched the game locally having soaked up the atmosphere..
Much like man utds "70k" vs barcelona, its a common phenomonon with football, especially when there's a big game.
666: Unfiltered (U11795)
posted 5 minutes ago
Irrelevant, is it?
==
You know what, I bet it was the same people that stabbed United fans in Rome, killed two Leeds fans in Turkey and also caused the banking crisis in Europe.
I reckon it was FSG personally.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Hillsborough .... Truth.... Now justice??
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posted on 13/9/12
Truth? Apology? Justice...Indemnification? Where does it stop?
===========================================
Tell you what then, lets take your family, put them up against a wall, crush them to death, then aportion balme to them, not give you any true information as to how or why it happened, and let you stew in your greif for 23 years, whilst continuing the innuendo against your dead family, and you.
I'm sure you would be more than happy to just accept what you were told, and simply get on with your life.
Maybe you should sign up for empathy classes.
posted on 13/9/12
Yes i'm clearly a WUM on an issue like this. That makes sense doesn't it? You need to stop being so rude. I've already explained why you aren't worth a lot of people's time and comprehension is not an issue. Thanks for the obvious concern though.
Like I said, keep making those faces, nobody can really see them.
posted on 13/9/12
666, this panel and Lord Taylor in his report both concluded that ticketless fans was not a contributory factor. If you have evidence to the contrary then you should present it or just shut the FU.
If on the other hand you are ignorantly still living in the fantasy world created by the sun surrounding this issue then you need to be aware that even they don't believe their version of 'the truth' anymore.
posted on 13/9/12
comment by jlou1978 (U15376)
posted 1 minute ago
Truth? Apology? Justice...Indemnification? Where does it stop?
===========================================
Tell you what then, lets take your family, put them up against a wall, crush them to death, then aportion balme to them, not give you any true information as to how or why it happened, and let you stew in your greif for 23 years, whilst continuing the innuendo against your dead family, and you.
I'm sure you would be more than happy to just accept what you were told, and simply get on with your life.
Maybe you should sign up for empathy classes.
--------------------------------------------------
And there we have it; you completely ignore the first part of my statement, take a comment out of context and make soundbites to make yourself feel big.
Congratulations!!
posted on 13/9/12
I do not agree that just because 164 police witnesses had had their statements changed that they are to blame. If I didn't know that my statement had been changed by a lawyer I would be non the wiser.
=========================================
How could so many witness statements have been covered up without any knowledge to those who made the statements? If they were not involved in the cover up at least one would have come forward to clear their name?
posted on 13/9/12
I'm not at all convinced by his opening gambit, TT.
You only have to consider the authors of this so-called "definitive" report into the disaster to see the conclusion was pretty much pre-ordained from the get-go. It apportions blame to the SYP, SWFC stewards and all agencies involved with the match but does not offer a single word against the Liverpool fans who absolutely DID contribute to the outcomes on that horrible, horrible day. A report without balance is a complete waste of ink; it carries as much weight as the original findings because it is exactly as partisan.
The truth, if anyone is actually interested in that anymore, lies somewhere in between the two, and I think everyone acknowldeges that on some level even if they're too scared to admit it publicly.
The only undoubted truth that is apparent to all is that those who died that day were the ones who were blameless; they were in, in plenty of time, and had no control whatsoever in the events. This isn't about trying to sully their memories, it's about apportioning blame FAIRLY for their deaths. Until certain quarters of Reds fans admit their part in this disaster, that will never happen so I ask again, what IS justice here?
posted on 13/9/12
I find it incredibly crass that today we have people on the liverpool board posting what amounts to:
"Yeah the police covered it up but it was still the fans fault"
That is not what has been revealed at all, that is not what was released yesterday and is doubly ignorant of the findings of the taylor report, I was hoping that yesterdays report would give people the impetus to look into the facts before coming on here and being insensitive..
The taylor report proved there was actually less fans in the leppings lane end than there was tickets sod, and it was also well under capacity
The police opened the gates but removed the stewards who were meant to direct crowd flow into the pens
(In short so far, they removed the crowd dispersal methods and thre the gate open to all and sundry)
The crowd was outside because the fans had turned up late, this was due to major roadworks on the way and police diversions, I would assume those climbing the walls did so because they heard the game was kicked off and they were stuck outside missing it!!
(So traffic flow was prevented causing a build up of fans (less than tickets sold) wanting to get into the stadium, hearing the game kicking off.)
When the exit gate was thrown open they entered via the exit corridor, this runs straight into the two central pens, eyewitness accounts recall that the area was like a tunnel with the pitch visible at one end, through the pens where the crush occured, there was no one controlling crowdflow in there or directing them round the sides to the other pens (which were not clearly visible)
So yes pushing wil have contributed, that's your only valid point, but if amass of people all push forward a small amount that is pretty quickly amplified to a large force, for instance it would take a lot of force for one person to push a car, but a lot of people a small amount of force each.
The failings were very much that of the police, the only thing the fans were guilty of was getting into the ground to see the match they had paid for..
posted on 13/9/12
It would seem even after the Prime Minister stands up in parliament, and says that in no way were Liverpool fans to blame, then the South Yorkshire Constabulary do the same, and the truth comes out after 23 years of lies and innuendo, this still isnt good enough for some idiots.
If you knowingly change a witness statement, for no other reason than to deflect blame from yourself, onto another person, you are perverting the course of justice, the sanctions against such actions carry a long custodial sentence.
I know full well that yesterdays findings dont suit the mindset of many on this forum, who would having rubbing their hands, and furiously posting articles if the documents released had in anyway pointed toward Liverpool fans being to blame, well they didnt, and the truth is there for all to see.
So even after this massive disclosure, and the truth being available for you to read for yourself, if like webbo, you have decided that you would still like to apportion blame to the fans who were at the ground that day, then shame on you.
posted on 13/9/12
OG?
Or would you value your job and support needed to feed your family?
Those high up in the Police would have issued a no talking to the media message. That is assuming that you knew you had had your statement changed.
It is easy for you to say why did they not come forward. They probably didn't know. Not saying they did but if it meant them keeping their job as a bog standard PC then I can understand why they didn't come forward.
It smells from higher up than the normal copper in this case.
I'm not saying I agree either that they shouldn't of come forward. It's just having the balls to do so
posted on 13/9/12
Yeah.. ok you all had tickets... I accept that now.
It was a figment of my imagination that I was asked if I had any spares.
Ok.. I've said enough now.
RIP the 96
posted on 13/9/12
Webbo I understand I just meant that it's likely they would have known but would have had the orders from above to keep schtum in fear of losing jobs etc.
Makes you wonder just what else is being covered up on a daily basis by the powers that be. How can anyone be trusted anymore.
posted on 13/9/12
Until certain quarters of Reds fans admit their part in this disaster,
========================================
The Taylor report concluded after reading tens of thousands of pages of manuscripts, eye witness statements, and legal documents, that Liverpool fans were in no way to blame for this disaster.
The Independent panel went through even more paper work, consoltation from any legal experts, and medical proffessionals, conclude the same, and obviously more besides, as regards the size of this cover up.
The Prime Minister apologizes to the families, the deceased, and the fans who were there that day, as they were in no way to blame, the South Yorkshire Police apologize likewise.
So all that time, effort, heartache, and fight for the truth, actually brings into the open, the undeniable truth, yet some sniveling little sh!tbag like you, continue with this type of ill informed, and downright wrong innuendo.
What a shameless little t0$$er you are.
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
Ok.. I've said enough now.
=========================
More than enough.
posted on 13/9/12
Webbo
You can say whatever you like,
I could fictionally say I was there and use it to support an argument. Infact anyone could.
But I think I would prefer to believe the findings of several throrough investigations into the incident rather than listen to you, 666 and your obvious agendas, perhaps you should stop and think about what impact your statements have? Especially in the way you phrase them,
On the day after fans are exonorated you claim they acted like dogs. I hope no one gullible sees your posts and follows your train of thought, and pray to god everyone will instead look to the FACTS rather than the opinions of one bitter little man pushing an agenda of hate
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
The FACTS are out after 23 years of fighting for them by the Liverpool fans. I've taken this comment from another board because it's very fitting:
"Don't let your football tribalism over-rule your humanity"
posted on 13/9/12
Considering this is the same set of fans who contrived to get the whole of English football banned from European competition by crushing 39 people to death against a concrete wall only four years previously,
=====================================
There you go, all better now.
Better out than in as they say.
posted on 13/9/12
Strett you may well have seen these people or been asked for a spare ticket..
But the taylor report abosoloutley found that ticketless fans were not a cause. I can understand you saying people asked, that's fine, its to be expected, there always was larger travelling groups of fans who went in the hope they could get tickets and to take in the atmosphere, but its not like they were forcing entry every weekend, as you said, they were in the pub, is it so hard to believe that they stayed there to watch the match and take in the atmosphere.
Again the taylor report comprehensivley proved ticketless fans were not the problem, however of course there were some in the city to enjoy the atmosphere it was commonplace
posted on 13/9/12
Irrelevant, is it?
posted on 13/9/12
posted on 13/9/12
666 we may have taken 30k to istanbul with an allocation fo 20k. 20k got into the ground 10k watched the game locally having soaked up the atmosphere..
Much like man utds "70k" vs barcelona, its a common phenomonon with football, especially when there's a big game.
posted on 13/9/12
666: Unfiltered (U11795)
posted 5 minutes ago
Irrelevant, is it?
==
You know what, I bet it was the same people that stabbed United fans in Rome, killed two Leeds fans in Turkey and also caused the banking crisis in Europe.
posted on 13/9/12
I reckon it was FSG personally.
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Page 2 of 9
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