Macca:

You've hit the nail on the head, but my point is that those fans pushing SHOULD take a portion of the blame because they KNEW what results from pushing.

I'm not saying that the fans were to blame for the whole thing, that the result was entirely one of their own making; it's quite clear that the failures of the authorities was a massive majority of the reasoning, from the moment the venue was picked to the moment they opened the gate, but I just can't get on with the idea of the ones doing the pushing being completely exonerated, blameless. Liverpool fans knew what pushing in a crowd could cause because they'd just lost six of their own and 33 Juventus supporters in a very similar scenario, only this time the immovable object didn't move or collapse.

It's a tragedy for the 96, it's a massive failure of the planning authorities, it's a complete failure on the ground on the day and it's a disgusting and wholly illegal cover-up that took place thereafter, now exposed.

The only point I and others have made is the degree of culpability of those fans doing the pushing; the rest is a matter of public record now.

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Pushing happened at nearly every game but nobody died, meaning it wasnt a contributing factor which has been said in both reports. Why did nobody die on other games but did in Hillsborough that day? Because there were other contributing factors! This is the difference and why it happened that day. Both reports found it! Imbecille.

strett - "...suggesting people stereotype through untruths, then peddle one yourself..."

1. Where did I suggest people stereotype through untruth?
2. What untruth did I peddle? I said "some" of them. That's true (see anywhere on this board in the last 48 hrs for evidence of this!)

comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 7 minutes ago

Pushing happened at nearly every game but nobody died, meaning it wasnt a contributing factor which has been said in both reports.

_____________________________________________________

Pushing directly resulted in death at Heysel, of your fans and Juve's.

That's the only reason I suggest SOME of your fans should have known and behaved better; I know the 96 were the innocents in this, have accepted that all along and am not trying to cast aspersions on the victims at all, but those who did the pushing must have known the likely consequences but "didn't think".

"Didn't think" is negligence.

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comment by 666: Unfiltered (U11795) posted 2 minutes ago

Macca:

You've hit the nail on the head, but my point is that those fans pushing SHOULD take a portion of the blame because they KNEW what results from pushing.
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Hard to agree with that

The mentality would surely have been 'there's enough room for all of us but come on hurry, the game's kicked off'

Think about it. You're outside and can hear thr roar of the crowd inside. You team is playing in a semi-final and you are desperate not to miss it.

Going by your analogy.

If I had been a Liverpool supporter that day and I was one of the ones outside listening to the crowd roar, I would have blood on my hands too, and I simply cannot accept that.

Do you really believe they would have been pushing to get in quicker if they had been aware that the space they were being forced into was not big enough?

This is a semifinal football crowd we are talking about here, not a queue for a theatre production.

Any set of fans would have done exactly the same thing.

Sorry

Anyone that cannot understand that funnelling a crowd of football fans into a space that was too small was a catastrophe waiting to happen, particularly when there was no escape route, then words fail me.

For me, all those fans were doing was pushing because they wanted to get in quicker. I just cant see how they could have known that the place they were pushing into was too small.

If anyone lays the blame on Liverpool fans then they have to lay the blame on all fans, because all football fans were like that back in the day.

Do you really think the Liverpool fans were acting out of the ordinary and not exactly the same has any other fans would have?

Like one guy said earlier, if it had been Forest in that end, the Hillsborough memorial would be in the East Midlands

It was a very different kind of pushing, not jostling to get in but a fight going on. It's completely different. These were innocent people trying to get in to watch a football match but unknown to them but obviously known to authorities the central pen was already full. All that had to happen which is a normal occurrence is that when the central penwas full fans were told and instructed to go into the side pens. It's really very simple and you even have the help of two reports which looked through half a million pages of evidence, video footage etc. leaving my the cause in no doubt.

Your problem is you've been peddling this for years and now aren't man enough yo admit you were wrong. This report has sorted the cowards from the men. Youre a vile person.

This report has sorted the cowards from the men. Youre a vile person.
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This for me is one of the clearest things to come out of this week of my life. Id hope to think if it was me who has been wrong for all these years id be able to hold my hands up... though i cant be sure i know i will remember this lesson for the rest of my life. It takes bottle and bravery to say you were wrong. And massive respect from me for anyone this week that has done that.

Exactly. There were many people who said things about ticketless fans etc who were stuck in their beliefs and believing the Liverpool victim mentality myth being pushed thought we were just being defensive when telling them what happened. However this report left people in no doubt and the men, even the likes of VC have come out and apologised with an admission of being wrong. I'd like to think no matter how much of a reputation I have for thinking I'm never wrong, an incident as serious as this I would admit to being wrong without a second thought.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Pushing happened at nearly every game but nobody died, meaning it wasnt a contributing factor which has been said in both reports. Why did nobody die on other games but did in Hillsborough that day? Because there were other contributing factors! This is the difference and why it happened that day. Both reports found it! Imbecille.

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Quite right TOOR

This is the stance that I have continuously put forward to them but they cannot answer it.

So I will try again.

Point 1) Fans turning up to games without tickets was the norm. It happened in 100% of all high profile games (not to mention an FA Cup semi final).

Point 2) Nottingham Forrest fans also outnumbered their allocation.

Point 3) In all standing terraces, pushing was part and parcel of the experience. In the old Kop, you could quite easily move 20 yards

Point 4) Given that pushing/swaying was the norm - why was there no other matches that resulted in the deaths of 96 people ?

Point 5) Given that the Leppings Lane pens were already considered dangerous and not fit for purpose - why were they still being used?

Point 6) Given that the Leppings Lane pens were already considered dangerous and not fit for purpose - why was Hillsborough selected as the venue for the semi final ?


Can any of the doubters respond to these points ?

1) Accepted
2) Accepted
3) The old Kop was significantly bigger than the Leppings Lane pens, so a 20 yard "give" would not have had the same effect as it would in a smaller area.
4) Swaying was the norm, as was momentary pushing at points like goals and penalties; sustained crushing was not. That volume of people pushing forward has only ever happened twice, and twice it was Liverpool fans doing the pushing.
5) There’s no excuse for it at all.
6) It should not have been used.

i wonder how many health & safety regulations were broken that contributed to the fire at valley parade? the families and friends of those victims have mourned with dignity.in spite of the equal 'injustice' that they were subjected to.

a load of scousers and lawyers will have taken a lot of money out of the pockets of the tax payer by the time this is over. if someone can explain to me how this represents justice i'd be very interested to hear it.

electric_boogaloo (U11761)

==

I take it you'd be happy to have someone you love, die, and then be blamed for their own death falsely?

You cretin. Come on let's hear that?

Wow.

a load of scousers and lawyers will have taken a lot of money out of the pockets of the tax payer by the time this is over
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Probably because they were accused of taking money out of the pockets of the dead when in truth they were having needles stuck in them

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I don't think I have seen more dignity in my life 96 people died and their families knowing the truth and without retribution sought justice for 23 years and eventually were proved correct despite the sick twisted imbecilles like you telling them they were at fault for their own deaths and needed to let it drop showing dignity. Youre disgusting.

1) Accepted
2) Accepted
3) The old Kop was significantly bigger than the Leppings Lane pens, so a 20 yard "give" would not have had the same effect as it would in a smaller area.
4) Swaying was the norm, as was momentary pushing at points like goals and penalties; sustained crushing was not. That volume of people pushing forward has only ever happened twice, and twice it was Liverpool fans doing the pushing.
5) There’s no excuse for it at all.
6) It should not have been used.
.....

1) so all the points about tickets are worthless
2) see 1
3) forget the size of the stand, we're talking about the culture of football in the 80s.
4) you say volume of ppl - that's interesting. Why was the volume so big?
5)
6)

I've not once suggested ticketless drunks were the cause of the tragedy, so I don't know why you're crowing about my concession on that.

As for the culture of football in the 80s: does that make it alright? Is that an excuse? This was the second time LFC fans had experienced fatalities due to crushing, and that's the rub of my point: shouldn't once have been enough?

I appreciate there would have been exuberant fans anxious to get in, what I can't excuse is the amount of pushing that took place despite prior experience of the consequences. Above all others, LFC fans should have learned that. It was a minority, yes, and in no way am I tarring all LFC fans with the same brush and certainly not the victims, but to categorically state that NO fans were to blame is not something I can agree with.

Have you seen the photos showing a near empty ground except for the central pen behind the goal (where the tragedy ocurred) being over-crowded beyond belief?

The fans were herded into that one area of the terrace while the rest of the terrace was yet to fill up.

666

You're missing the point.

Pushing happened in every game. You seem to think every that turned up on that day coincidentally all happened to push harder than usual.

The reality is that the fans did what all fans did at the time.

The key is managing the crowds and ensuring security is on the ball.

There was no designated seating so the powers that be needed to make a decision as to when fans should stop going through the exit gate or at least have it manned.

My point was that the same happene in most games

Your point is that the pushing that day was worse - did all the Liverpool fans turn up coincidentally thinking like that?

Metro - he's not missing the point, he just doesn't want to acknowledge it!

The point I'm labouring to make is that, just because it was accepted back in the day, the pushing is what actually caused the crush.

Liverpool fans knew then as they know now that pushing on a terrace means that someone, somewhere, is going to have to resist that force or be overwhelmed by it. Those fans can't plead ignorance because of what had preceded Hillsborough at Heysel, and so saying "We pushed because the police allowed us to push" doesn't really excuse it in my eyes. If you came to a tunnel or say underpass now, and it was chock-full of people already, would you run at it?

The befores and afters I think we all agree were negligent and disgusting in equal measure, but I still maintain that SOME of your fans should have known better, the 'culture of the 80s' or not.