I'm not convincing anyone, but nor am I being convinced.
I've heard first-hand accounts and read enough to form an opinion and it's not about to be changed on a forum. I absolutely agree that there was fault on the part of the authorities, and that a cover-up of disgusting proportions has now been exposed which I agree the perpetrators of should be charged for, but I do not agree that Liverpool fans were entirely blameless and I still have heard from one person who can actually put into words what they mean when they now demand justice.. what would that mean? How? What would be justice in this case?
I can fully understand the need of the families to push for the last 23 years for a full account of what went on, but is this one, and what happens now? What form would justice take?
I don't think they'll ever get over the loss of a loved one, and nothing will ever bring them back, but what would bring closure?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
to know that those who caused this cover up and smeared the memory of their loved ones and stigmatised them and the following generations of liverpool fans be bought to account for what they have done
The course of justice has been perverted, that is illegal, illegal meand breaking the law, breaking the law requires punishment.
Its really not hard to understand, although seeing as you cannot understand the findings of several reports and then an inquest comitte all saying liverpool fans were not to blame I'm not surprised you can't engage your brain to function in a logical and unbiased way, to see where justice lays
Strett
Thats a deep post from whoever wrote it
random:
that'd be justice for the cover-up, and I don't think there's a single person who doesn't think that those responsible for the reports, lies and misinformation that followed the tragedy shouldn't be held to account.
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
Justice for the 96 was that people were bought to account for their deaths and the ensuing cover up, by admitting there has been a cover up you are acknowledging there is something that needed covering. The people responsible for both elements need to be bought to task for the errors that lead to loss of life that day, namely the opening of that exit gate, had the game been delayed by 15 mins instead then there would not have been restlessness outside, the turnstiles could have been left turning and the stewards could have stayed where they were directing the flow of the crowd.
How do you fail to see this, when you are willing to accept there was a cover up?
How can you agree there was a cover up and slander directed towards liverpool fans but then still claim they were to blame, you either believe there was a cover up or you don't,
Grow up and stop letting triablism shape your thoughts, think for a minute about what you are doing, it isn't big and it isn't clever, its immature, childish and insensitive, one day when you do grow up a bit you will look back on this with shame because I truley believe now you are just here on the WUM and to be contraverisal
Apologies for the typos, I'm using my phone
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
------------------------------
666, justice will be served when the punishment that the police were obviously trying to avoid has been meted out to those who went to such lengths to deflect the blame from themselves.
Why did they go to such great lengths to cover up if they committed no wrong?
This is a comment in response to an article in the Guardian from a Liverpool supporter called Knellerman
'I was the editor of a Liverpool newspaper at the time of this disaster. I had also followed LFC home and away for many years.
My view at the time, and it remains my view, was that Hillsborough was essentially a horrible, horrible accident.
I had been to many games where the pressure of the crowd led to people being displaced on the pitch to take the pressure off crushing.
Ultimately, what killed the fans was the fencing which prevented an overspill. The fences were there because of the previous behaviour of hooligans associated with most top football clubs.
The FA also allocated the wrong end to Liverpool - despite protests by the club.
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate. But this was not hooliganism as such but simply the fanatical desire of some Liverpool fans to see their team play. There was no evil intent. I had seen this behaviour at previous end of season games. Yorkshire police should have been aware of this and had a plan.
The stadium itself was not fir for purpose.
I believe the police and other services were overwhelmed by the scale of the disaster.
WHat is unforgivable was how they sought to deflect blame on to the fans and to try to portray the victims as the cause of this disaster.
I still believe that some LFC fans tried to storm the gate to get into the match, but even if this was the case, the police should have had enough planning and intelligence to deal with this.
The lies and cover up from the police are truly shocking and the behaviour of the coroner compounds the way the humanity of those who died was denied by the authorities.
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
=========================================
Quite simple really.
Justice would involve individuals being prosecuted for criminal negligence, that led directly to the death of people who could have, and should have treated for their injuries, and survived.
Others should be prosecuted for deceitful, and unlawful practices, that include perverting the course of justice, ie, altering statements in a direct attempt to divert blame to the innocent, in an attempt to cover their own backs, and mask the truth of what actually happened.
Are you really so unintelligent that you couldn't work that out for yourself ?
If I was witness to your death, at the hands of somebody who acted in a criminally negligent way, and was subsequently found to have lied, in an attempt to protect the guilty, I would face a custodial sentence.
In this case, the situation is compounded by the fact, that the people who are guilty of perverting the course of the law, and the truth, are the very people who are employed to uphold the law in this country.
Whether these offices are retired, ill, or dead, it should not preclude them from being either prosecuted, or posthumously found guilty of wrong doing.
Its as simple, and as straight forward as that.
666 is up a one way street now and he knows no way back, nor does he wish to find one.
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate.
==================================
Based on what ?
It has been proven, and explained at great length, that this simply wasn't true.
It may suit you to want to believe this, but apart from everyone who has been privie to masses of evidence, and admissions by the Police, the government, and everyone else involved in this case, who exactly would have to tell you they didn't, for you to believe it to be the case.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Jloo, to be fair I think that post is a quote from someone else, not necessarily the view of the poster.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by jlou1978 (U15376) posted 3 minutes ago
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate.
==================================
Based on what ?
It has been proven, and explained at great length, that this simply wasn't true.
It may suit you to want to believe this
------------------------------
Wasn't me who wrote it
Thought I had made that perfectly clear. Was written by a long standing Liverpool fan who went home and away.
I have no real personal opinion of what happened because I was not there so I just take on board what I read so please, stop presuming it suits me
comment by FSB (U11355) posted 2 minutes ago
Jloo, to be fair I think that post is a quote from someone else, not necessarily the view of the poster
--------------
Correct mate
Sorry UnitedRedMacca, please accept my apology.
No probs mate
I think what the guy was saying is that back then, if the match had started, fans didn't form orderly queues. Fans were, shall we say more boisterous back then, and he was just giving an opinion based on previous experiences.
However, the report says otherwise and that is all we have to go on so based on facts being given you would have to say his opinion is wrong however, being an 80s supporter myself, I do know where he's coming from.
Macca, that's an interesting post but I am wary of simply passing this off as an accident. Accidents usually have a root cause(s) and it is important that the lessons of those root causes are learnt in order to minimise or eliminate the likelihood of similar occurrences. If the root cause is shown to be a result of someone's negligence then they should be open to prosecution under whatever legislation is appropriate eg HSE etc.
In addition, I think South Yorkshire Cheif Constable yesterday acknowledged their guilt in respect of both their negligence at the time of the tragedy and the subsequent cover up. Which suggests that they don't believe it was simply an accident either.
I've admitted the failings of the police and other authorities, and asked that those who were responsible for the ensuing cover-up be held to account for the inexcusable slandering of those who died. This is common sense.
My point as regards the deaths is simply that the repeated refusal to accept personal responsibility by each of those Liverpool fans is wrong. Simply stating that 'the authorities should have known to contain us and that we'd rush and push' doesn't negate the fact that those fans were rushing and pushing. "We all did it" is no excuse, but I've yet to hear from a single Red who admits their part in this action. It probably all seemed like fun and games at the time, at the wrong end of the tunnel, but not thinking through the consequences of your actions is the definition of negligence: do we not all know that the forces expressed in a push must be resolved somewhere? You never played games with falling dominoes in Liverpool, no? It's very, very basic physics: you push, something either moves or gets crushed.
The police failed to stop Liverpool fans crushing other Liverpool fans to death, and given that they'd done exactly that to their own 4 years previously, that's a huge mistake on behalf of SYP, but it does NOT exonerate those doing the pushing. Surely 'justice' would mean EVERYONE who was culpable being brought to book, wouldn't it? That's what sets it apart from a witch hunt.
FSB
Not a chance in hell I will ever believe it was a tragic accident.
The Police were fully aware back in the day what FACup semifinals were like and what to expect. Hysterical crowds, some with radios glued to their ears listening to see if their bet had come up in the National
The crowds were like sardines in a tin back then and with the pens being fenced in, preparation should have been paramount.
The fans being boisterous was not to blame. That was normal back then. Police were well aware of it.
Preparation for it and the subsequent actions of the authorities were to blame and the truth has finally come out
JFT96
YNWA
666, crowd control measures are a standard part of the planning for any major event. Someone is responsible for ensuring that the crowds are SAFELY able to access their designated area. These measures failed with tragic consequences.
You can continue trying to pin the blame on the liverpool fans if you wish but everyone in authority from the PM down has absolved the fans of the blame. They have access to more information on this matter than you do and so I will ignore your rantings and accept their verdict that the fans are not to blame.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Hillsborough .... Truth.... Now justice??
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posted on 13/9/12
I'm not convincing anyone, but nor am I being convinced.
I've heard first-hand accounts and read enough to form an opinion and it's not about to be changed on a forum. I absolutely agree that there was fault on the part of the authorities, and that a cover-up of disgusting proportions has now been exposed which I agree the perpetrators of should be charged for, but I do not agree that Liverpool fans were entirely blameless and I still have heard from one person who can actually put into words what they mean when they now demand justice.. what would that mean? How? What would be justice in this case?
I can fully understand the need of the families to push for the last 23 years for a full account of what went on, but is this one, and what happens now? What form would justice take?
I don't think they'll ever get over the loss of a loved one, and nothing will ever bring them back, but what would bring closure?
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
to know that those who caused this cover up and smeared the memory of their loved ones and stigmatised them and the following generations of liverpool fans be bought to account for what they have done
The course of justice has been perverted, that is illegal, illegal meand breaking the law, breaking the law requires punishment.
Its really not hard to understand, although seeing as you cannot understand the findings of several reports and then an inquest comitte all saying liverpool fans were not to blame I'm not surprised you can't engage your brain to function in a logical and unbiased way, to see where justice lays
posted on 13/9/12
Strett
Thats a deep post from whoever wrote it
posted on 13/9/12
random:
that'd be justice for the cover-up, and I don't think there's a single person who doesn't think that those responsible for the reports, lies and misinformation that followed the tragedy shouldn't be held to account.
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
posted on 13/9/12
Justice for the 96 was that people were bought to account for their deaths and the ensuing cover up, by admitting there has been a cover up you are acknowledging there is something that needed covering. The people responsible for both elements need to be bought to task for the errors that lead to loss of life that day, namely the opening of that exit gate, had the game been delayed by 15 mins instead then there would not have been restlessness outside, the turnstiles could have been left turning and the stewards could have stayed where they were directing the flow of the crowd.
How do you fail to see this, when you are willing to accept there was a cover up?
How can you agree there was a cover up and slander directed towards liverpool fans but then still claim they were to blame, you either believe there was a cover up or you don't,
Grow up and stop letting triablism shape your thoughts, think for a minute about what you are doing, it isn't big and it isn't clever, its immature, childish and insensitive, one day when you do grow up a bit you will look back on this with shame because I truley believe now you are just here on the WUM and to be contraverisal
posted on 13/9/12
Apologies for the typos, I'm using my phone
posted on 13/9/12
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
------------------------------
666, justice will be served when the punishment that the police were obviously trying to avoid has been meted out to those who went to such lengths to deflect the blame from themselves.
Why did they go to such great lengths to cover up if they committed no wrong?
posted on 13/9/12
This is a comment in response to an article in the Guardian from a Liverpool supporter called Knellerman
'I was the editor of a Liverpool newspaper at the time of this disaster. I had also followed LFC home and away for many years.
My view at the time, and it remains my view, was that Hillsborough was essentially a horrible, horrible accident.
I had been to many games where the pressure of the crowd led to people being displaced on the pitch to take the pressure off crushing.
Ultimately, what killed the fans was the fencing which prevented an overspill. The fences were there because of the previous behaviour of hooligans associated with most top football clubs.
The FA also allocated the wrong end to Liverpool - despite protests by the club.
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate. But this was not hooliganism as such but simply the fanatical desire of some Liverpool fans to see their team play. There was no evil intent. I had seen this behaviour at previous end of season games. Yorkshire police should have been aware of this and had a plan.
The stadium itself was not fir for purpose.
I believe the police and other services were overwhelmed by the scale of the disaster.
WHat is unforgivable was how they sought to deflect blame on to the fans and to try to portray the victims as the cause of this disaster.
I still believe that some LFC fans tried to storm the gate to get into the match, but even if this was the case, the police should have had enough planning and intelligence to deal with this.
The lies and cover up from the police are truly shocking and the behaviour of the coroner compounds the way the humanity of those who died was denied by the authorities.
posted on 13/9/12
What I'm asking, in response to the OP, is what do people think would be "justice" for the fact of the deaths, not the slandering that occured afterward?
=========================================
Quite simple really.
Justice would involve individuals being prosecuted for criminal negligence, that led directly to the death of people who could have, and should have treated for their injuries, and survived.
Others should be prosecuted for deceitful, and unlawful practices, that include perverting the course of justice, ie, altering statements in a direct attempt to divert blame to the innocent, in an attempt to cover their own backs, and mask the truth of what actually happened.
Are you really so unintelligent that you couldn't work that out for yourself ?
If I was witness to your death, at the hands of somebody who acted in a criminally negligent way, and was subsequently found to have lied, in an attempt to protect the guilty, I would face a custodial sentence.
In this case, the situation is compounded by the fact, that the people who are guilty of perverting the course of the law, and the truth, are the very people who are employed to uphold the law in this country.
Whether these offices are retired, ill, or dead, it should not preclude them from being either prosecuted, or posthumously found guilty of wrong doing.
Its as simple, and as straight forward as that.
posted on 13/9/12
666 is up a one way street now and he knows no way back, nor does he wish to find one.
posted on 13/9/12
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate.
==================================
Based on what ?
It has been proven, and explained at great length, that this simply wasn't true.
It may suit you to want to believe this, but apart from everyone who has been privie to masses of evidence, and admissions by the Police, the government, and everyone else involved in this case, who exactly would have to tell you they didn't, for you to believe it to be the case.
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
Jloo, to be fair I think that post is a quote from someone else, not necessarily the view of the poster.
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
comment by jlou1978 (U15376) posted 3 minutes ago
I believe that some LFC fans did rush the gate.
==================================
Based on what ?
It has been proven, and explained at great length, that this simply wasn't true.
It may suit you to want to believe this
------------------------------
Wasn't me who wrote it
Thought I had made that perfectly clear. Was written by a long standing Liverpool fan who went home and away.
I have no real personal opinion of what happened because I was not there so I just take on board what I read so please, stop presuming it suits me
posted on 13/9/12
comment by FSB (U11355) posted 2 minutes ago
Jloo, to be fair I think that post is a quote from someone else, not necessarily the view of the poster
--------------
Correct mate
posted on 13/9/12
Sorry UnitedRedMacca, please accept my apology.
posted on 13/9/12
No probs mate
I think what the guy was saying is that back then, if the match had started, fans didn't form orderly queues. Fans were, shall we say more boisterous back then, and he was just giving an opinion based on previous experiences.
However, the report says otherwise and that is all we have to go on so based on facts being given you would have to say his opinion is wrong however, being an 80s supporter myself, I do know where he's coming from.
posted on 13/9/12
Macca, that's an interesting post but I am wary of simply passing this off as an accident. Accidents usually have a root cause(s) and it is important that the lessons of those root causes are learnt in order to minimise or eliminate the likelihood of similar occurrences. If the root cause is shown to be a result of someone's negligence then they should be open to prosecution under whatever legislation is appropriate eg HSE etc.
In addition, I think South Yorkshire Cheif Constable yesterday acknowledged their guilt in respect of both their negligence at the time of the tragedy and the subsequent cover up. Which suggests that they don't believe it was simply an accident either.
posted on 13/9/12
I've admitted the failings of the police and other authorities, and asked that those who were responsible for the ensuing cover-up be held to account for the inexcusable slandering of those who died. This is common sense.
My point as regards the deaths is simply that the repeated refusal to accept personal responsibility by each of those Liverpool fans is wrong. Simply stating that 'the authorities should have known to contain us and that we'd rush and push' doesn't negate the fact that those fans were rushing and pushing. "We all did it" is no excuse, but I've yet to hear from a single Red who admits their part in this action. It probably all seemed like fun and games at the time, at the wrong end of the tunnel, but not thinking through the consequences of your actions is the definition of negligence: do we not all know that the forces expressed in a push must be resolved somewhere? You never played games with falling dominoes in Liverpool, no? It's very, very basic physics: you push, something either moves or gets crushed.
The police failed to stop Liverpool fans crushing other Liverpool fans to death, and given that they'd done exactly that to their own 4 years previously, that's a huge mistake on behalf of SYP, but it does NOT exonerate those doing the pushing. Surely 'justice' would mean EVERYONE who was culpable being brought to book, wouldn't it? That's what sets it apart from a witch hunt.
posted on 13/9/12
FSB
Not a chance in hell I will ever believe it was a tragic accident.
The Police were fully aware back in the day what FACup semifinals were like and what to expect. Hysterical crowds, some with radios glued to their ears listening to see if their bet had come up in the National
The crowds were like sardines in a tin back then and with the pens being fenced in, preparation should have been paramount.
The fans being boisterous was not to blame. That was normal back then. Police were well aware of it.
Preparation for it and the subsequent actions of the authorities were to blame and the truth has finally come out
JFT96
YNWA
posted on 13/9/12
666, crowd control measures are a standard part of the planning for any major event. Someone is responsible for ensuring that the crowds are SAFELY able to access their designated area. These measures failed with tragic consequences.
You can continue trying to pin the blame on the liverpool fans if you wish but everyone in authority from the PM down has absolved the fans of the blame. They have access to more information on this matter than you do and so I will ignore your rantings and accept their verdict that the fans are not to blame.
posted on 13/9/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 13/9/12
Macca, well said
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