comment by Lexington 125.2 (U8879)
posted 56 seconds ago
So you're saying you're not in the slightest bit aware of any changes that have happened within football finances between 1996 and now?
Ok.
Again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger had to fight his own battles and had different mountains to climb. You are already making excuses for Arteta before he has even started properly.
Actually Lexington its quite funny. You accuse me of not liking Arteta for comparing him to Moyes or whatever slight you perceive, in the match threads but then you are the one who thinks he can't achieve simple Cl qualification because you know whatever. Who really lacks belief in him? I didn't see this kind of nonsense when I used to say Emery should be judged on the same criteria.
And were it Arsene Wenger, rather than Mikel Arteta taking over Arsenal FC 2020, I'd be cutting him a bit more slack too - especially if it were his first managerial role.
It's called growing the fack up.
Did you ever compare Arteta to Moyes?
Do you think that could be viewed as a bit derogatory?
Why didn't you cut the same slack for Emery?
I think CL is an unrealistic minimum expectation for next season. Yes, it should definitely be the target but failing to achieve it has to be judged on circumstances.
Realisticly the measurable targets have to be increased points, increased goals scored, decreased goals conceded. The targets without measurement will be quality of performance, team identity, clear progression of squad, signings etc - not all of which are Arteta's responsibility.
I did cut Emery slack. Probably way too much in hindsight. Not remember my thread when he got to 50 games? That went well, didn't it?
See, someone admitting they got something wrong on the internet!
Not facking difficult, is it?
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 29 seconds ago
Did you ever compare Arteta to Moyes?
Do you think that could be viewed as a bit derogatory?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was meant to be. Arteta is playing very defensive football. Like Moyes. I have yet to see a convincing attacking display. We have to attack now. Goal difference matters against Villa and Watford. But I have also said numerous times with that, I can understand if thats how he is forced to play with what he has inherited. And hopefully he will change next season. But I faith he will and I expect us to qualify for the CL. Thats how this whole bit of the thread started.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted on 1/11/19
How optimism can turn so quickly in football.
----------
🥴
So you don't think the manager is playing the hand he's been dealt then, with the defensive displays we've seen?
And even if he is doing it through choice, rather than necessity, that performance on Saturday night was as good as anything we produced in the Graham era.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 3 minutes ago
I think CL is an unrealistic minimum expectation for next season. Yes, it should definitely be the target but failing to achieve it has to be judged on circumstances.
Realisticly the measurable targets have to be increased points, increased goals scored, decreased goals conceded. The targets without measurement will be quality of performance, team identity, clear progression of squad, signings etc - not all of which are Arteta's responsibility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats more than fair enough and I have no problem with that at all. As I've said above you can always have post mortem after the season to see why your targets haven't been met. But you cannot do that at the start. Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League? And why shouldn't we believe Arteta can get us there?
J99, I'm sorry, but that's a disingenuous point and you know it. Wenger had no real competition for top 4 in the earlier years. City hadn't established themselves as a top club yet. Spurs were a yo-yo side. Liverpool were also an inconsistent side.
We had a wage bill that comfortably dwarfed most of the teams we were regularly embroiled in battles with for 4th like Aston Villa and Everton.
The competition for top 4 now is a lot harder than it was pre-2011.
J99, to accuse me of lowering expectations is lazy. I have said what the overall objective is - to get back into the Champions League and eventually compete for the title again. But, as I keep repeating and as you are failing to acknowledge, we are not in the best position to get back into the CL compared to our competitors. So although we should be aiming to get back in it, Arteta should not walk if we do not get it if we don't invest like the others do.
"Why should it be any different for Arteta?"
Because the position he is taking over was far worse than anything Emery had. And he is still suffering from the poor contractual and financial decisions made by the previous regime.
"He is being paid millions of pounds to do that role and thats what should be expected from him."
This is yet another lazy argument. So are all the other managers who are in charge of clubs ahead of us in the league!
You don't think they're all also trying to get into that coveted Champions League and they're all looking to progress from here?
There are so many factors at play here that you're just arrogantly dismissing.
So if Tyrone Mings is our 'marquee signing' this summer, you think CL qualification should still be expected next season?
Ok let's move on
Who on this thread/forum is a Russian mole?
There was no "Wenger Out" before the oligarchs poisoned football
Interesting 🤔
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
comment by Lexington 125.2 (U8879)
posted 17 seconds ago
So you don't think the manager is playing the hand he's been dealt then, with the defensive displays we've seen?
And even if he is doing it through choice, rather than necessity, that performance on Saturday night was as good as anything we produced in the Graham era.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here you were having a go at me for comparing a different era to present and you are doing the same.
I don't think you can win a title or get into the CL playing with only 30% possession.
As much as I critiqued Wenger for overly relying on possession and losing our directness you still need a fair amount of attacking play against most teams. Wenger and Pep based their football on it. And thats been my only beef.
I like what Lampard has done. And if we play in a similar style next season I would more than happy.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 42 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fecking thank you
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
The Liverpool net spend is skewed by some huge sales though isn't it?
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 second ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool player sales under Klopp:
Coutinho - £142m
Sakho - £26m
Ibe - £15m
Solanke - £20m
Ings - £20m
Benteke - £32m
Allen - £13m
Ward - £13m
When we start getting these sorts of fees for players, especially fringe players or youth players who haven't proved anything, and reinvest that money wisely, then you can make this argument.
Until we do, comparing it to Klopp is disingenuous.
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp was given time. He wasn't sacked for finishing 8th.
Net spend doesn't tell the story of Liverpools success. They sold a player for £160m and signed a keeper and CB for £70m+ each.
Again, as said it has to be judged on what we do. The points total for top 4 is very low this season. Emery (and Poch) lost his job for failing to capatalise on it. If next season 4th is pushing 80 points and we get, say, 75, can you really punish Arteta for missing out on top 4?
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Guen is being sold because Arteta wishes it. Same with every player at Arsenal.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Guen is being sold because Arteta wishes it. Same with every player at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You think Arteta is negotiating the fee? Interesting.
You think Klopp was on the phone to Barca negotiating the Coutinho sale?
Sign in if you want to comment
THE Arsenal Thread
Page 21698 of 31901
21699 | 21700 | 21701 | 21702 | 21703
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Lexington 125.2 (U8879)
posted 56 seconds ago
So you're saying you're not in the slightest bit aware of any changes that have happened within football finances between 1996 and now?
Ok.
Again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wenger had to fight his own battles and had different mountains to climb. You are already making excuses for Arteta before he has even started properly.
posted on 21/7/20
Actually Lexington its quite funny. You accuse me of not liking Arteta for comparing him to Moyes or whatever slight you perceive, in the match threads but then you are the one who thinks he can't achieve simple Cl qualification because you know whatever. Who really lacks belief in him? I didn't see this kind of nonsense when I used to say Emery should be judged on the same criteria.
posted on 21/7/20
And were it Arsene Wenger, rather than Mikel Arteta taking over Arsenal FC 2020, I'd be cutting him a bit more slack too - especially if it were his first managerial role.
It's called growing the fack up.
posted on 21/7/20
Did you ever compare Arteta to Moyes?
Do you think that could be viewed as a bit derogatory?
posted on 21/7/20
Why didn't you cut the same slack for Emery?
posted on 21/7/20
I think CL is an unrealistic minimum expectation for next season. Yes, it should definitely be the target but failing to achieve it has to be judged on circumstances.
Realisticly the measurable targets have to be increased points, increased goals scored, decreased goals conceded. The targets without measurement will be quality of performance, team identity, clear progression of squad, signings etc - not all of which are Arteta's responsibility.
posted on 21/7/20
I did cut Emery slack. Probably way too much in hindsight. Not remember my thread when he got to 50 games? That went well, didn't it?
See, someone admitting they got something wrong on the internet!
Not facking difficult, is it?
posted on 21/7/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 29 seconds ago
Did you ever compare Arteta to Moyes?
Do you think that could be viewed as a bit derogatory?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was meant to be. Arteta is playing very defensive football. Like Moyes. I have yet to see a convincing attacking display. We have to attack now. Goal difference matters against Villa and Watford. But I have also said numerous times with that, I can understand if thats how he is forced to play with what he has inherited. And hopefully he will change next season. But I faith he will and I expect us to qualify for the CL. Thats how this whole bit of the thread started.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted on 1/11/19
How optimism can turn so quickly in football.
----------
🥴
posted on 21/7/20
So you don't think the manager is playing the hand he's been dealt then, with the defensive displays we've seen?
And even if he is doing it through choice, rather than necessity, that performance on Saturday night was as good as anything we produced in the Graham era.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 3 minutes ago
I think CL is an unrealistic minimum expectation for next season. Yes, it should definitely be the target but failing to achieve it has to be judged on circumstances.
Realisticly the measurable targets have to be increased points, increased goals scored, decreased goals conceded. The targets without measurement will be quality of performance, team identity, clear progression of squad, signings etc - not all of which are Arteta's responsibility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats more than fair enough and I have no problem with that at all. As I've said above you can always have post mortem after the season to see why your targets haven't been met. But you cannot do that at the start. Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League? And why shouldn't we believe Arteta can get us there?
posted on 21/7/20
J99, I'm sorry, but that's a disingenuous point and you know it. Wenger had no real competition for top 4 in the earlier years. City hadn't established themselves as a top club yet. Spurs were a yo-yo side. Liverpool were also an inconsistent side.
We had a wage bill that comfortably dwarfed most of the teams we were regularly embroiled in battles with for 4th like Aston Villa and Everton.
The competition for top 4 now is a lot harder than it was pre-2011.
J99, to accuse me of lowering expectations is lazy. I have said what the overall objective is - to get back into the Champions League and eventually compete for the title again. But, as I keep repeating and as you are failing to acknowledge, we are not in the best position to get back into the CL compared to our competitors. So although we should be aiming to get back in it, Arteta should not walk if we do not get it if we don't invest like the others do.
"Why should it be any different for Arteta?"
Because the position he is taking over was far worse than anything Emery had. And he is still suffering from the poor contractual and financial decisions made by the previous regime.
"He is being paid millions of pounds to do that role and thats what should be expected from him."
This is yet another lazy argument. So are all the other managers who are in charge of clubs ahead of us in the league!
You don't think they're all also trying to get into that coveted Champions League and they're all looking to progress from here?
There are so many factors at play here that you're just arrogantly dismissing.
posted on 21/7/20
So if Tyrone Mings is our 'marquee signing' this summer, you think CL qualification should still be expected next season?
posted on 21/7/20
Ok let's move on
Who on this thread/forum is a Russian mole?
There was no "Wenger Out" before the oligarchs poisoned football
Interesting 🤔
posted on 21/7/20
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Lexington 125.2 (U8879)
posted 17 seconds ago
So you don't think the manager is playing the hand he's been dealt then, with the defensive displays we've seen?
And even if he is doing it through choice, rather than necessity, that performance on Saturday night was as good as anything we produced in the Graham era.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here you were having a go at me for comparing a different era to present and you are doing the same.
I don't think you can win a title or get into the CL playing with only 30% possession.
As much as I critiqued Wenger for overly relying on possession and losing our directness you still need a fair amount of attacking play against most teams. Wenger and Pep based their football on it. And thats been my only beef.
I like what Lampard has done. And if we play in a similar style next season I would more than happy.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 42 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fecking thank you
posted on 21/7/20
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
posted on 21/7/20
The Liverpool net spend is skewed by some huge sales though isn't it?
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 second ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool player sales under Klopp:
Coutinho - £142m
Sakho - £26m
Ibe - £15m
Solanke - £20m
Ings - £20m
Benteke - £32m
Allen - £13m
Ward - £13m
When we start getting these sorts of fees for players, especially fringe players or youth players who haven't proved anything, and reinvest that money wisely, then you can make this argument.
Until we do, comparing it to Klopp is disingenuous.
posted on 21/7/20
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 11 seconds ago
Why shouldn't Arsenal expect to be in the Champions League?
=======
There are 6 teams who expect to be in the CL, but only 4 places. Going into next season we are not among the 4 best placed teams to achieve that. Thus to make it the minimum requirement is not a fair demand. That is why it has to be judged on what we do, and if we do well but the 4 better placed teams do better then that is not really on the manager is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you dismissing what Klopp has achieved having a net spend less than us?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp was given time. He wasn't sacked for finishing 8th.
Net spend doesn't tell the story of Liverpools success. They sold a player for £160m and signed a keeper and CB for £70m+ each.
Again, as said it has to be judged on what we do. The points total for top 4 is very low this season. Emery (and Poch) lost his job for failing to capatalise on it. If next season 4th is pushing 80 points and we get, say, 75, can you really punish Arteta for missing out on top 4?
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Guen is being sold because Arteta wishes it. Same with every player at Arsenal.
posted on 21/7/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted less than a minute ago
Thats a part of management, no? I have no issues if Arteta sold Saka (player I rate the most highly home-grown ever) for £150m if he could make us title contenders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that is above the manager at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. Guen is being sold because Arteta wishes it. Same with every player at Arsenal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You think Arteta is negotiating the fee? Interesting.
You think Klopp was on the phone to Barca negotiating the Coutinho sale?
Page 21698 of 31901
21699 | 21700 | 21701 | 21702 | 21703