Melton
There was no need to bring the holocaust into the debate though. By doing that you suddenly turn one thing into something else and imply that people who believe in a cover up on 9/11 must also be some slack jawed people who believe that the holocaust was also a lie.
It's that kind of 'round everything up and put it in the same group' thinking that allows governments around the world to get away with things because people to bring straw man arguments into fields where it's not needed.
There is rationally questioning certain events or casting reasonable doubt on something and then there is wild elaborate imaginings. I would say there are almost an unlimited potential number of mad theories. That shouldn't be confused with in any way a path to True events. Occam's razor should come into play at some point.
"Then someone comes along with the theory you've just mentioned and it gets people so het up and angry that suddenly ALL forms of conspiracy are thrown out the window and no-one searches for the truth."
As I said, I'm perfectly happy to discuss anything on the reasoning and causes behind 9/11. I've got a question for you though Robb. If you think that the crazier elements still could potentially be plausible, what books or transcripts have you read yourself on what happened that day?
The reason I ask that is because every time I see someone come up with one of these theories, they actually haven't done any reading themselves on the timeline of what happened or the research of the subject themselves yet feel they can question it openly.
this is the most ive ever seen admin post on an article
Macca,
"Saddam has certainly used them before and some of the stuff the inspectors found, in one case by total fluke, was scary as hell
Saddam was a madman who needed removing. He lead the inspectors a merry dance. the reason for the invasion was him. Not the US or the UK
He could have played ball and he uite simply did not"
------------------------------
I'm afraid this simply isn't accurate.
Saddam's worst crimes were backed and funded by the US and UK. Once he threatened gaining control over Kuwaiti oil, he crossed a line that we didn't like. We imposed genocidal sanctions on the people of Iraq that killed 500,000 children under the age of 5 and close to a million people in total. This actually forced the Iraqi population to become dependent on Saddam. The sanctions worked in terms of disarming Saddam. In fact they worked virtually immediately.
It's a total myth that Saddam played hardball over the inspections. Scott Ritter, the chief UN weapons inspector in Iraq is on record (a quick google check will show you this) as saying that Iraq was fundamentally disarmed. That was in 1998, 5 years before the invasion and ensuing bloodbath.
The US/UK tried to concoct a situation where Saddam appeared to be resistant to inspections. We sent people in repeatedly, with Saddam's approval, up until the point where we were being completely unrealistic and forcing Saddam to not fully co-operate. To reiterate, we already knew that Iraq's WMD capability was all but non-existent many years prior to the invasion. The invasion was pure self interest, as Bush later conceded in 2007 when he referred to opening up Iraq to western investors etc...
On everything you've said about the ludicrous 9/11 conspiracies, you are correct. I'll probably add a separate post of my own on that soon.
It all boils down to whether you believe that governments are completely trustworthy. For me, they are not and I will always be open to alternative scenarios. I won't necessarily believe them but I certainly never blindly believe the official line either.
The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad.....
It comes as no shock to me that this article has turned into a 9/11 debate and that Rob is arguing in favour of a conspiracy.
comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 1 minute ago
There is rationally questioning certain events or casting reasonable doubt on something and then there is wild elaborate imaginings. I would say there are almost an unlimited potential number of mad theories. That shouldn't be confused with in any way a path to True events. Occam's razor should come into play at some point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. And my Occam's razor thinking is how extremely lucky it was that two untrained pilots managed to take the controls of a type of jet they had never flown before and then make some very difficult manoeuvres and both manager to fly into the towers at high speed and both bring down the towers.
That is the main debate i'm having on here while people want me to justify the other theories thrown out there on the web.
No it isn't Robb, what your theory suggests is a government led atrocity that led to an act of war that involved a cover up on a mass scale to try and con the world something happened that didn't.
That is the exact same argument as holocaust sympathisers use. Not even slightly similar, it is the exact same. You show them all the evidence in the world, all the testimony from thousands of people, and yet the doubt is still there because they didn't see it with their own eyes.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cal - I wish I could play like Kent Carlevi (U11544)
posted 26 seconds ago
FFS not the 9/11 thing again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
International week
Darren
Melton, trust me, i've read nearly everything on it. I went through a bit of an obsessed stage a couple of years back and looked at both sides. There are plenty of inconsistencies on both sides of the argument but certainly enough dodgy things to get even the most ardent pro-government person to be a bit suss.
FSB,
"The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad....."
-----------------------
This is pure nonsense. China, last time i looked, are about 81st on the human development index. Their military spending is about 1/5 of what the US spent on Iraq alone.
The China 'boom' is simply because so much manufacture and production gets sent there. It's essentially a giant manufacturing plant. This ridiculous notion of China being the leading superpower at some point in the not too distant future is pure fantasy.
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
No it isn't Robb, what your theory suggests is a government led atrocity that led to an act of war that involved a cover up on a mass scale to try and con the world something happened that didn't.
That is the exact same argument as holocaust sympathisers use. Not even slightly similar, it is the exact same. You show them all the evidence in the world, all the testimony from thousands of people, and yet the doubt is still there because they didn't see it with their own eyes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry but just because there are some crazy people out there who don't believe in the holocaust doesn't mean that all other conspiracy theories need to be invalidated.
So tell me some of the books or transcripts then robb. I'm sorry, but having had to spend a lot of time researching this, if you believe that there is even a slight possibility that different planes might have been used, then I don't believe you.
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
"I'm sorry but just because there are some crazy people out there who don't believe in the holocaust doesn't mean that all other conspiracy theories need to be invalidated."
That has nothing to do with what I said. I'm not saying people believe in both or none, just that they are both as ludicrous as each other, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, some people believe in it. You yourself see one plausible and one crazy. Why?
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 1 minute ago
FSB,
"The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad....."
-----------------------
This is pure nonsense. China, last time i looked, are about 81st on the human development index. Their military spending is about 1/5 of what the US spent on Iraq alone.
The China 'boom' is simply because so much manufacture and production gets sent there. It's essentially a giant manufacturing plant. This ridiculous notion of China being the leading superpower at some point in the not too distant future is pure fantasy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally disagree with that China now hold such a large % of US tresurie bonds they have termed the potential sale of them as going nuclear. The UK has such a huge budget defecit that we are relying on China to fund our critical capital projects foe energy security such as power plants. We will at least for decades be at the mercy of China and their economic influence.
The UK and US are in China's pocket.
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
---------------------
The British Service men and women were and have been partaking in an illegal war. They were brainwashed in doing so by there drill sergeants in the same way others are brainwashed into blowing up planes etc.
The service men and women are not innocent in all of this. They chose to work for an organisation that kills people. That has to say something about a persons character. They go into war knowing that civilians WILL get killed, isn't that enough?
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 2 minutes ago
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Macca, I think that debate is definitely best kept off the site.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 43 seconds ago
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Macca, I find it astounding that you come up with that opinion based on what i've written on here. Frankly astounding.
Throughout history it has been the powers that be who start wars and the soldiers who are the ones to suffer. And I have not once said anything that makes the British soldiers to be the 'bad guys'.
All I have maintained is that the powers that be whether it be the US government led by Bush and Rumsfeld and their Haliburton interests in Iraq or whether it be the British politicians in World War 1 taking over the oil fields in the Middle East and any other dodgy behaviour by the powers that be, it is the little people that suffer.
Again, it's astounding that you could think i'm trying to paint soldiers as the bad guys here.
I would have never thought Robb would come off as a terrorist sympathiser just to score wumming points on an internet forum.
The tool will stay filtered by me, that is for sure.
Admin1,
China cannot compete militarily with the US, not to mention the US has over 800 military bases all over the world. I'm doubting China's ability or capacity to grow economically, but the notion of it being the leading superpower are vastly premature.
Sign in if you want to comment
Kennedy assassination- Conspiracy or not?
Page 16 of 28
17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21
posted on 14/11/13
Melton
There was no need to bring the holocaust into the debate though. By doing that you suddenly turn one thing into something else and imply that people who believe in a cover up on 9/11 must also be some slack jawed people who believe that the holocaust was also a lie.
It's that kind of 'round everything up and put it in the same group' thinking that allows governments around the world to get away with things because people to bring straw man arguments into fields where it's not needed.
posted on 14/11/13
There is rationally questioning certain events or casting reasonable doubt on something and then there is wild elaborate imaginings. I would say there are almost an unlimited potential number of mad theories. That shouldn't be confused with in any way a path to True events. Occam's razor should come into play at some point.
posted on 14/11/13
"Then someone comes along with the theory you've just mentioned and it gets people so het up and angry that suddenly ALL forms of conspiracy are thrown out the window and no-one searches for the truth."
As I said, I'm perfectly happy to discuss anything on the reasoning and causes behind 9/11. I've got a question for you though Robb. If you think that the crazier elements still could potentially be plausible, what books or transcripts have you read yourself on what happened that day?
The reason I ask that is because every time I see someone come up with one of these theories, they actually haven't done any reading themselves on the timeline of what happened or the research of the subject themselves yet feel they can question it openly.
posted on 14/11/13
this is the most ive ever seen admin post on an article
posted on 14/11/13
Macca,
"Saddam has certainly used them before and some of the stuff the inspectors found, in one case by total fluke, was scary as hell
Saddam was a madman who needed removing. He lead the inspectors a merry dance. the reason for the invasion was him. Not the US or the UK
He could have played ball and he uite simply did not"
------------------------------
I'm afraid this simply isn't accurate.
Saddam's worst crimes were backed and funded by the US and UK. Once he threatened gaining control over Kuwaiti oil, he crossed a line that we didn't like. We imposed genocidal sanctions on the people of Iraq that killed 500,000 children under the age of 5 and close to a million people in total. This actually forced the Iraqi population to become dependent on Saddam. The sanctions worked in terms of disarming Saddam. In fact they worked virtually immediately.
It's a total myth that Saddam played hardball over the inspections. Scott Ritter, the chief UN weapons inspector in Iraq is on record (a quick google check will show you this) as saying that Iraq was fundamentally disarmed. That was in 1998, 5 years before the invasion and ensuing bloodbath.
The US/UK tried to concoct a situation where Saddam appeared to be resistant to inspections. We sent people in repeatedly, with Saddam's approval, up until the point where we were being completely unrealistic and forcing Saddam to not fully co-operate. To reiterate, we already knew that Iraq's WMD capability was all but non-existent many years prior to the invasion. The invasion was pure self interest, as Bush later conceded in 2007 when he referred to opening up Iraq to western investors etc...
On everything you've said about the ludicrous 9/11 conspiracies, you are correct. I'll probably add a separate post of my own on that soon.
posted on 14/11/13
It all boils down to whether you believe that governments are completely trustworthy. For me, they are not and I will always be open to alternative scenarios. I won't necessarily believe them but I certainly never blindly believe the official line either.
The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad.....
posted on 14/11/13
It comes as no shock to me that this article has turned into a 9/11 debate and that Rob is arguing in favour of a conspiracy.
posted on 14/11/13
comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 1 minute ago
There is rationally questioning certain events or casting reasonable doubt on something and then there is wild elaborate imaginings. I would say there are almost an unlimited potential number of mad theories. That shouldn't be confused with in any way a path to True events. Occam's razor should come into play at some point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. And my Occam's razor thinking is how extremely lucky it was that two untrained pilots managed to take the controls of a type of jet they had never flown before and then make some very difficult manoeuvres and both manager to fly into the towers at high speed and both bring down the towers.
That is the main debate i'm having on here while people want me to justify the other theories thrown out there on the web.
posted on 14/11/13
No it isn't Robb, what your theory suggests is a government led atrocity that led to an act of war that involved a cover up on a mass scale to try and con the world something happened that didn't.
That is the exact same argument as holocaust sympathisers use. Not even slightly similar, it is the exact same. You show them all the evidence in the world, all the testimony from thousands of people, and yet the doubt is still there because they didn't see it with their own eyes.
posted on 14/11/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/11/13
comment by Cal - I wish I could play like Kent Carlevi (U11544)
posted 26 seconds ago
FFS not the 9/11 thing again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
International week
posted on 14/11/13
Darren
Melton, trust me, i've read nearly everything on it. I went through a bit of an obsessed stage a couple of years back and looked at both sides. There are plenty of inconsistencies on both sides of the argument but certainly enough dodgy things to get even the most ardent pro-government person to be a bit suss.
posted on 14/11/13
FSB,
"The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad....."
-----------------------
This is pure nonsense. China, last time i looked, are about 81st on the human development index. Their military spending is about 1/5 of what the US spent on Iraq alone.
The China 'boom' is simply because so much manufacture and production gets sent there. It's essentially a giant manufacturing plant. This ridiculous notion of China being the leading superpower at some point in the not too distant future is pure fantasy.
posted on 14/11/13
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
No it isn't Robb, what your theory suggests is a government led atrocity that led to an act of war that involved a cover up on a mass scale to try and con the world something happened that didn't.
That is the exact same argument as holocaust sympathisers use. Not even slightly similar, it is the exact same. You show them all the evidence in the world, all the testimony from thousands of people, and yet the doubt is still there because they didn't see it with their own eyes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry but just because there are some crazy people out there who don't believe in the holocaust doesn't mean that all other conspiracy theories need to be invalidated.
posted on 14/11/13
So tell me some of the books or transcripts then robb. I'm sorry, but having had to spend a lot of time researching this, if you believe that there is even a slight possibility that different planes might have been used, then I don't believe you.
posted on 14/11/13
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
posted on 14/11/13
"I'm sorry but just because there are some crazy people out there who don't believe in the holocaust doesn't mean that all other conspiracy theories need to be invalidated."
That has nothing to do with what I said. I'm not saying people believe in both or none, just that they are both as ludicrous as each other, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, some people believe in it. You yourself see one plausible and one crazy. Why?
posted on 14/11/13
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 1 minute ago
FSB,
"The bad news is that in the next couple of decades the US will be surpassed by China as the dominant economic power. Economic power and political power go hand in hand so in the not too distant future we will all be living in a world controlled by China. If you think the US government are bad....."
-----------------------
This is pure nonsense. China, last time i looked, are about 81st on the human development index. Their military spending is about 1/5 of what the US spent on Iraq alone.
The China 'boom' is simply because so much manufacture and production gets sent there. It's essentially a giant manufacturing plant. This ridiculous notion of China being the leading superpower at some point in the not too distant future is pure fantasy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally disagree with that China now hold such a large % of US tresurie bonds they have termed the potential sale of them as going nuclear. The UK has such a huge budget defecit that we are relying on China to fund our critical capital projects foe energy security such as power plants. We will at least for decades be at the mercy of China and their economic influence.
posted on 14/11/13
The UK and US are in China's pocket.
posted on 14/11/13
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
---------------------
The British Service men and women were and have been partaking in an illegal war. They were brainwashed in doing so by there drill sergeants in the same way others are brainwashed into blowing up planes etc.
The service men and women are not innocent in all of this. They chose to work for an organisation that kills people. That has to say something about a persons character. They go into war knowing that civilians WILL get killed, isn't that enough?
posted on 14/11/13
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 2 minutes ago
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Macca, I think that debate is definitely best kept off the site.
posted on 14/11/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/11/13
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 43 seconds ago
Robb
One thing you keep going on about that I find incredibly disrespectful is you comparing what decent British Servicemen were doing in Iraq in terms of all the innocents killed with cold blooded fantatical terrorists
You seriously think that our serviceman acted in Iraq in a similar way to what terrorists act in terms of trying to avoid innocent lives being lost?
These soldiers are giving their lives in trying to mimimise civilian casualties, Terrorists blow themselves up in Markets to kill as many innocents as they can
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Macca, I find it astounding that you come up with that opinion based on what i've written on here. Frankly astounding.
Throughout history it has been the powers that be who start wars and the soldiers who are the ones to suffer. And I have not once said anything that makes the British soldiers to be the 'bad guys'.
All I have maintained is that the powers that be whether it be the US government led by Bush and Rumsfeld and their Haliburton interests in Iraq or whether it be the British politicians in World War 1 taking over the oil fields in the Middle East and any other dodgy behaviour by the powers that be, it is the little people that suffer.
Again, it's astounding that you could think i'm trying to paint soldiers as the bad guys here.
posted on 14/11/13
I would have never thought Robb would come off as a terrorist sympathiser just to score wumming points on an internet forum.
The tool will stay filtered by me, that is for sure.
posted on 14/11/13
Admin1,
China cannot compete militarily with the US, not to mention the US has over 800 military bases all over the world. I'm doubting China's ability or capacity to grow economically, but the notion of it being the leading superpower are vastly premature.
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