comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
Are any of us qualified to talk about such things?

I think you're making something out of nothing, VC.
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That is his oxygen!

Are any of us qualified to talk about such things?
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The most anyone can do is thorough research and evaluate as much evidence as possible, drawing from the best available resources. So on matters of foreign policy, for example, we have a rich documentary record of declassified government files etc... Not only can you look through them yourself, but there is also excellent work by people such as Mark Curtis, John Pilger, Noam Chomsky and a host of others that draw from these sources and others. I always make the point whenever i end up discussing this - whether in person or online - to not take my word for it. Do the research. I've said it in this thread, too.

The most basic research will confirm anything i've said. If it were a more appropriate forum for such discussions, i'd go into vastly more detail - fully referenced and sourced etc... But i guess there should be a line on a football forum!!

gotta love international week... only week and a half to go..
Tomorrow we go deep, on the Stanley Kubrick/Moon Landing hoax!!

comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 2 minutes ago
Are any of us qualified to talk about such things?

I think you're making something out of nothing, VC.

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Maybe Dazza, but I like to think I can form my own opinions on Afghanistan, not have respective governments make them for me.

That is my issue.

The anti war people really do write some s h it that goes on in Afghanistan. Far more than any spin put up by the MoD.

Not sure if you have seen the documentary on the school that opened recently in Helmand Province where girls were being taught for the very first time.

Well, they were very happy, and I am sure they would not like to return to the old ways.

Of course the conspiracy nuts among us would probably have us believe the British Army were forcing them to smile at the cameras at gunpoint.

but I like to think I can form my own opinions on Afghanistan
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That's cute. Or you could do some research and, rather than rely so heavily on your opinions, rely on facts and evidence...

Fair points, VC.

I do agree with the crux of what he's saying, however.

It's not really in the interest of the mainstream what is happening in Afghanistan and so we cannot say with any great authority what is going on and how people feel about it over there.

Of course this will just depend on the individual and how they want to analyse the situation.

Personally I acknowledge my own ignorance on the matter as I've never been to Afghanistan nor done enough research into the attitudes of both the elite or the general populace in the country.

So whether it is better or worse is not something I can answer.

It's almost like a documentary on TV justifies the invasion!

To be fair berbaking, and I do agree with the Names you have listed as being very good, in terms of research I always find it slightly better to read both sides of the argument

I'm not disagreeing with them or you, just that you are not really looking at a broad point of view with those choices.

To be fair berbaking, and I do agree with the Names you have listed as being very good, in terms of research I always find it slightly better to read both sides of the argument

I'm not disagreeing with them or you, just that you are not really looking at a broad point of view with those choices.
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This isn't true. I've read an awful lot of other stuff. Again, it comes down to the evidence. Those names - and i only names a few for brevities sake - are pretty strict themselves about sticking purely to the best evidence.

The 'other' side of the argument in this context would be what government or politicians claim. It's up to us to challenge those claims (or any claims, for that matter, regardless of who claims them). If they don't hold up to basic scrutiny then they should be dismissed.

So again, it's not about opinions or 'points of view'. Ultimately it's finding the one that is accurate or truthful. Those names i mentioned just happen to be particularly outstanding and would serve as an excellent starting point for anyone wanting to understand foreign policy, economics and the like...

Or you could do some research
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I have access to the daily press releases from the MoD, so thanks for your concern.

I agree, I've read works by all three of them and I reiterate, they were very good. However, all three are very much anti western foreign policy, and left leaning. If you really want to understand foreign policy, then you need to read the opposite as well from a research perspective, that is all I am saying.

I was on the way to work one day and I had the choice of two books from my shelf for my commute.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Were-Will-Hutton/dp/0349114714
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peace-Kills-Americas-Fun-Imperialism-ebook/dp/B002ROKQKQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384454807&sr=1-1&keywords=peace+kills+book

I opted for the first and was on the way home stopped and searched under section 27 of the Terrorism act. Thankfully I did not have the second book

I have access to the daily press releases from the MoD, so thanks for your concern
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This is getting comical. The MoD is for all intents and purposes the UK Govs disinformation wing - traditionally called propaganda, of course. The fact i have to even write that is pretty revealing in and of itself.

Admin



That first book is quite interesting because it echoes a point of history from the 50's and the Suez crisis.

When the US refused to step in and help France and Britain against the Egyptians and the Russians threatened to nuke France and Britain, it terrified the likes of France and Germany so much it led to the creation of the EEC and for Europe to be a bit more self equipped to deal with outside threats.

It would seem even now the Europeans need to stand together and not rely on the US so much.

Could you imagine getting stopped under the terrorism act with a book in your bag entitled peace kills. There was a brief moment when I had a panic. I've coincidentally also never worn jeans and trainers since that day, as that was put into the description of me.

That would be the worst luck. I'm sure people have been sent to Guantanamo for less!

If you really want to understand foreign policy, then you need to read the opposite as well from a research perspective, that is all I am saying.
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Understanding FP is really about understanding the economic system that governs it.

To say they are anti-western foreign policy is a bit misleading. While it's obvious they oppose it, they do so based on the evidence and driving motivations that govern it. Any sane person who doesn't have a vested interest and who knows anything significant or accurate could not possible like our policy. It would be impossible. For starters, we're running ourselves off the cliff face with reckless dependance and usage of fossil fuels, purely for the maximisation of profits for energy companies. The whole system is totally insane.

The three people mentioned really just point this out. There work doesn't contain any bias. Curtis especially, given that he has virtually no media profile and there aren't any interviews of him (maybe one or two).

The MoD is for all intents and purposes the UK Govs disinformation wing

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Oh dear.

How very wrong you are.

I think this is by far the funniest thing I have read for some time.

There work doesn't contain any bias.
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I've not read them but do not believe that for a second.

I don't believe the human mind is capable of being unbiased, in my unbiased opinion.

That's exactly what it is. But keep going with your opinions, by all means. There's a reason the psychological warfare department has a media training department...

I prefer the MotD to the MoD

One thing you always see in such threads is that familiar pattern of comments.

Someone questions an official story with legitimate concerns over their accuracy

Someone retaliates by belittling the person who questions. They sometimes use things like aliens and Elvis to try and marginalise you into a whack community.

The reality is, we're told that 19 man with box cutters took over 4 planes and killed thousands of people with no resistance and stunning accuracy.

I have a problem with that as do millions

Funnily enough even the US DoD press releases from Afghanistan are very good as well.

You could learn a hell of a liot of what is actually going on from them.

I've not read them but do not believe that for a second
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Well take a look, for example. http://www.markcurtis.info/

Read anything on that. It's pretty dense and not nearly as fun sounding as Admin1's book choices. It's just straight laced research and reporting.

When i say, "their work", im referring to their books and stuff. Chomsky, for example, constantly gets asked his opinions on things, before you start bombarding me with videos!!

The reality is, we're told that 19 man with box cutters took over 4 planes and killed thousands of people with no resistance and stunning accuracy.

I have a problem with that as do millions

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Not sure why you find any of it hard to believe.

Do you know what a box cutter is?