Macca
You're missing my point. I never said the British soldiers purposely killed half a million people in Iraq but by invading Iraq these people ended up dying.
It's not the soldiers fault at all but instead the powers that be who ordered that war to happen. A war by the way that has made Iraq far worse than it was before the war and now has made more terrorists than there were before.
That is terrorism on a mass scale. It's prescient that in this week of remembrance day that we look back on World War 1 and how many innocent people were killed at the Somme just so the fatcats back in the UK could have their interests served.
I want to repeat and you can tell your mate VC who seems to think i'm here with a British soldier voodoo doll in my have that I am on the sides of the soldiers and the innocents as they are always the ones to get killed while the politicians and corporations (who I am against) make money and gain power through pointless wars.
It is also entirely illegal to force regime change. There's a good chance that, had we not decided to cripple the Iraqi people (sanctions), they'd have found a way of ousting Saddam themselves
----------------------------
i was thinking about this not long ago
Given what has been going on in the Middle east in terms of the uprisings in Syria and the likes, I shudder to think what hussain would have done if anybody in Iraq would have had similar intentions.
Admin
I suppose what is also worth considering is that an economic super power has far more scope for military expansion than a country that has a strong military but no money.
Especially when you consider the vast numbers in China.
They are not battle-proven. But their army is extremely impressive.
...........
Impressive in numbers for sure.
As an armed force in the world. Not yet. They do not have the technology the US has, for starters.
VC
Robb want's you to see this in his defence
He thinks I misunderstood him.
Macca
You're missing my point. I never said the British soldiers purposely killed half a million people in Iraq but by invading Iraq these people ended up dying.
It's not the soldiers fault at all but instead the powers that be who ordered that war to happen. A war by the way that has made Iraq far worse than it was before the war and now has made more terrorists than there were before.
That is terrorism on a mass scale. It's prescient that in this week of remembrance day that we look back on World War 1 and how many innocent people were killed at the Somme just so the fatcats back in the UK could have their interests served.
I want to repeat and you can tell your mate VC who seems to think i'm here with a British soldier voodoo doll in my have that I am on the sides of the soldiers and the innocents as they are always the ones to get killed while the politicians and corporations (who I am against) make money and gain power through pointless wars.
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 2 minutes ago
Again, it's astounding that you could think i'm trying to paint soldiers as the bad guys here.
--------------------
i've been warned by Admin to keep that off the site so all I'll say is that the British servicemen do not murder innocents (I know there may have been isolated cases) so to bring up the amount of innocents killed in iraq is just wrong.when comparing it the amount of innocents killed by terrorists. There is a fundamental difference in the intention despite the tragedy of the events being totally comparable
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again best to keep it of the site. Terrorists are a minority of the population as are soldiers who break the Geneva convention and human rights. Both happen but it is unfair to paint all with the same brush. I watched the shock and awe and the destruction of bridges and power stations and it would be pushing it for me to not accept that there were severe overheads at the civilian level. So a morality argument from either side will only ever end with ill feeling.
China means 'middle country' and they think they are already the centre of the earth and don't seem to have any ambitions to invade any countries or be a colonial power beyond their borders any further than Tibet or Taiwan
It's very possible that those who paint China as this big evil monolith coming to conquer us all might find it to be an Empire that doesn't go round conquering everything that can be conquered and in a few hundred years people could look back at the UK and the USA as the bad guys who went round causing wars just to control the fossil fuels.
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
They are not battle-proven. But their army is extremely impressive.
...........
Impressive in numbers for sure.
As an armed force in the world. Not yet. They do not have the technology the US has, for starters.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They really do. If they invaded the US, they would be able to hold their own and inflict massive damage at the very least. One of the factors that would come into play would be the experience of the officers and NCOs on the ground in the US.
Russia also have a pretty good army.
Admin
There are always going to be civillian casualties in war.
It can not be helped. All you can do is try to minimise them. Something the British Military have tried very hard to do, by investing in high technology weaponry designed to take out targets with little collateral damage.
But, it will always happen.
Macca,
"i was thinking about this not long ago
Given what has been going on in the Middle east in terms of the uprisings in Syria and the likes, I shudder to think what hussain would have done if anybody in Iraq would have had similar intentions."
-------------------
It probably wouldn't have been pretty, but worse than 1 million dead during the 90's? Another million dead since 2003? 4.5 million people displaced? Cancer, leukemia and infant mortality rates higher than those seen in the aftermath of Hiroshima? (due to the use of white phosphorous and depleted uranium).
Furthermore, Syria is not a great comparison, it's an all out civil war, largely lead by/infiltrated by Islamic extremist elements with their own agenda's. A quite complex mix.
Well. I would say that US have better tech'. But China's aren't exactly stone age in comparison. They would be able to go toe to toe with America no problem.
Out of interest, where does the figure of half a million innocent casualties come from?
I know there will have been some because Hussain was sticking innocent people on the front lne so to speak in the form of human shields
Macca
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
............
Said by someone sat behind the safety of his keyboard, enjoying the freedom that the Military provide.
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
----
Depends on what the army is doing. If it's been used for imperialistic reasons then you're entirely correct.
Well. I would say that US have better tech'. But China's aren't exactly stone age in comparison.
...........
Pretty much.
comment by ツ Captain 'Plastic' Subjectivity (U12048) posted 3 minutes ago
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
-------------------------
Tell that to the Afghan women and children and the families of the Soldiers who have been killed helping to liberate them
Heroes doesn't do them justice
Idiot
Out of interest, where does the figure of half a million innocent casualties come from?
-----------------------------
The John Hopkins study published by the Lancet (world's leading medical journal) and the ORB studies.
The figure the the mainstream media uses (IBC - Iraq Body Count) are a bad joke with a methodology that has been repeatedly discredited. In fact, UK politicians have even conceded this in private. (I can't be bothered to source it, but you'll find it if you want).
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by ツ Captain 'Plastic' Subjectivity (U12048) posted 3 minutes ago
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
-------------------------
Tell that to the Afghan women and children and the families of the Soldiers who have been killed helping to liberate them
Heroes doesn't do them justice
Idiot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. You may get a few bad people in the armies. But you get the same people in all walks of life, it's just that these particular ones have been given a big gun and a license to kill.
Military personal are all great, great heroes. Even the mechanics and technicians etc who don't fight.
Macca
I hope you and even Mr Chin can see that i've not once slated the soldiers. I have friends who are soldiers and their only task is to follow orders.
It's the people who give the orders from the highest echelons that are the target of my scorn.
As you've seen half a million innocent people died in Iraq just so the US could have a stake in the 'new' Iraq. Plenty of soldiers and even more innocents died to make that happen which I think is a crime.
If Saddam was the problem then it would have been a lot easier to have him assassinated but the US and the UK wanted to invade the country, destroy it and bring in their own companies (Haliburton amongst others) to make a load of money from rebuilding it and also to have a controlling stake in the Iraqi oilfields.
Surely you can see that the Iraqi people are hardly better off from the war but the powers that be who started the war are certainly richer.
This. You may get a few bad people in the armies. But you get the same people in all walks of life, it's just that these particular ones have been given a big gun and a license to kill.
Military personal are all great, great heroes. Even the mechanics and technicians etc who don't fight.
-----
Robb, do China's imperial aspirations, or lack of, matter? The US has always claimed to be vehemently anti-imperialist (some left wing authors disagree) but they have still been the sole superpower for the last 20 years and like it or not what goes on in the world is largely influenced by Washington
China may not want to build an empire but they will have political and economic power and will inevitably have a huge influence over us. As someone said earlier they won't call in their debts from the US because it would be catastrophic for the the world economy. They have the power to do it, but fortunately, at the moment they don't have the desire.
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Kennedy assassination- Conspiracy or not?
Page 18 of 28
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posted on 14/11/13
Macca
You're missing my point. I never said the British soldiers purposely killed half a million people in Iraq but by invading Iraq these people ended up dying.
It's not the soldiers fault at all but instead the powers that be who ordered that war to happen. A war by the way that has made Iraq far worse than it was before the war and now has made more terrorists than there were before.
That is terrorism on a mass scale. It's prescient that in this week of remembrance day that we look back on World War 1 and how many innocent people were killed at the Somme just so the fatcats back in the UK could have their interests served.
I want to repeat and you can tell your mate VC who seems to think i'm here with a British soldier voodoo doll in my have that I am on the sides of the soldiers and the innocents as they are always the ones to get killed while the politicians and corporations (who I am against) make money and gain power through pointless wars.
posted on 14/11/13
It is also entirely illegal to force regime change. There's a good chance that, had we not decided to cripple the Iraqi people (sanctions), they'd have found a way of ousting Saddam themselves
----------------------------
i was thinking about this not long ago
Given what has been going on in the Middle east in terms of the uprisings in Syria and the likes, I shudder to think what hussain would have done if anybody in Iraq would have had similar intentions.
posted on 14/11/13
Admin
I suppose what is also worth considering is that an economic super power has far more scope for military expansion than a country that has a strong military but no money.
Especially when you consider the vast numbers in China.
posted on 14/11/13
*hand
posted on 14/11/13
They are not battle-proven. But their army is extremely impressive.
...........
Impressive in numbers for sure.
As an armed force in the world. Not yet. They do not have the technology the US has, for starters.
posted on 14/11/13
VC
Robb want's you to see this in his defence
He thinks I misunderstood him.
Macca
You're missing my point. I never said the British soldiers purposely killed half a million people in Iraq but by invading Iraq these people ended up dying.
It's not the soldiers fault at all but instead the powers that be who ordered that war to happen. A war by the way that has made Iraq far worse than it was before the war and now has made more terrorists than there were before.
That is terrorism on a mass scale. It's prescient that in this week of remembrance day that we look back on World War 1 and how many innocent people were killed at the Somme just so the fatcats back in the UK could have their interests served.
I want to repeat and you can tell your mate VC who seems to think i'm here with a British soldier voodoo doll in my have that I am on the sides of the soldiers and the innocents as they are always the ones to get killed while the politicians and corporations (who I am against) make money and gain power through pointless wars.
posted on 14/11/13
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 2 minutes ago
Again, it's astounding that you could think i'm trying to paint soldiers as the bad guys here.
--------------------
i've been warned by Admin to keep that off the site so all I'll say is that the British servicemen do not murder innocents (I know there may have been isolated cases) so to bring up the amount of innocents killed in iraq is just wrong.when comparing it the amount of innocents killed by terrorists. There is a fundamental difference in the intention despite the tragedy of the events being totally comparable
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again best to keep it of the site. Terrorists are a minority of the population as are soldiers who break the Geneva convention and human rights. Both happen but it is unfair to paint all with the same brush. I watched the shock and awe and the destruction of bridges and power stations and it would be pushing it for me to not accept that there were severe overheads at the civilian level. So a morality argument from either side will only ever end with ill feeling.
posted on 14/11/13
China means 'middle country' and they think they are already the centre of the earth and don't seem to have any ambitions to invade any countries or be a colonial power beyond their borders any further than Tibet or Taiwan
It's very possible that those who paint China as this big evil monolith coming to conquer us all might find it to be an Empire that doesn't go round conquering everything that can be conquered and in a few hundred years people could look back at the UK and the USA as the bad guys who went round causing wars just to control the fossil fuels.
posted on 14/11/13
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
posted on 14/11/13
posted on 14/11/13
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 2 minutes ago
They are not battle-proven. But their army is extremely impressive.
...........
Impressive in numbers for sure.
As an armed force in the world. Not yet. They do not have the technology the US has, for starters.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They really do. If they invaded the US, they would be able to hold their own and inflict massive damage at the very least. One of the factors that would come into play would be the experience of the officers and NCOs on the ground in the US.
Russia also have a pretty good army.
posted on 14/11/13
Admin
There are always going to be civillian casualties in war.
It can not be helped. All you can do is try to minimise them. Something the British Military have tried very hard to do, by investing in high technology weaponry designed to take out targets with little collateral damage.
But, it will always happen.
posted on 14/11/13
Macca,
"i was thinking about this not long ago
Given what has been going on in the Middle east in terms of the uprisings in Syria and the likes, I shudder to think what hussain would have done if anybody in Iraq would have had similar intentions."
-------------------
It probably wouldn't have been pretty, but worse than 1 million dead during the 90's? Another million dead since 2003? 4.5 million people displaced? Cancer, leukemia and infant mortality rates higher than those seen in the aftermath of Hiroshima? (due to the use of white phosphorous and depleted uranium).
Furthermore, Syria is not a great comparison, it's an all out civil war, largely lead by/infiltrated by Islamic extremist elements with their own agenda's. A quite complex mix.
posted on 14/11/13
Well. I would say that US have better tech'. But China's aren't exactly stone age in comparison. They would be able to go toe to toe with America no problem.
posted on 14/11/13
Out of interest, where does the figure of half a million innocent casualties come from?
I know there will have been some because Hussain was sticking innocent people on the front lne so to speak in the form of human shields
posted on 14/11/13
Macca
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256
posted on 14/11/13
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
............
Said by someone sat behind the safety of his keyboard, enjoying the freedom that the Military provide.
posted on 14/11/13
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
----
Depends on what the army is doing. If it's been used for imperialistic reasons then you're entirely correct.
posted on 14/11/13
Well. I would say that US have better tech'. But China's aren't exactly stone age in comparison.
...........
Pretty much.
posted on 14/11/13
comment by ツ Captain 'Plastic' Subjectivity (U12048) posted 3 minutes ago
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
-------------------------
Tell that to the Afghan women and children and the families of the Soldiers who have been killed helping to liberate them
Heroes doesn't do them justice
Idiot
posted on 14/11/13
Out of interest, where does the figure of half a million innocent casualties come from?
-----------------------------
The John Hopkins study published by the Lancet (world's leading medical journal) and the ORB studies.
The figure the the mainstream media uses (IBC - Iraq Body Count) are a bad joke with a methodology that has been repeatedly discredited. In fact, UK politicians have even conceded this in private. (I can't be bothered to source it, but you'll find it if you want).
posted on 14/11/13
comment by UnitedRedMacca-The Original Rooney Fanboy (U2024)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by ツ Captain 'Plastic' Subjectivity (U12048) posted 3 minutes ago
I haven't been following this debate or the course that it's taken, but I am fed up with the hero status that the army gets. They're fighting mostly illegitimate, costly and unworthy wars. Ok an individual soldier might not be to blame, but they need to stop being lauded as heroes when there are plenty of more heroic people who don't go around killing people for a job.
-------------------------
Tell that to the Afghan women and children and the families of the Soldiers who have been killed helping to liberate them
Heroes doesn't do them justice
Idiot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. You may get a few bad people in the armies. But you get the same people in all walks of life, it's just that these particular ones have been given a big gun and a license to kill.
Military personal are all great, great heroes. Even the mechanics and technicians etc who don't fight.
posted on 14/11/13
Macca
I hope you and even Mr Chin can see that i've not once slated the soldiers. I have friends who are soldiers and their only task is to follow orders.
It's the people who give the orders from the highest echelons that are the target of my scorn.
As you've seen half a million innocent people died in Iraq just so the US could have a stake in the 'new' Iraq. Plenty of soldiers and even more innocents died to make that happen which I think is a crime.
If Saddam was the problem then it would have been a lot easier to have him assassinated but the US and the UK wanted to invade the country, destroy it and bring in their own companies (Haliburton amongst others) to make a load of money from rebuilding it and also to have a controlling stake in the Iraqi oilfields.
Surely you can see that the Iraqi people are hardly better off from the war but the powers that be who started the war are certainly richer.
posted on 14/11/13
This. You may get a few bad people in the armies. But you get the same people in all walks of life, it's just that these particular ones have been given a big gun and a license to kill.
Military personal are all great, great heroes. Even the mechanics and technicians etc who don't fight.
-----
posted on 14/11/13
Robb, do China's imperial aspirations, or lack of, matter? The US has always claimed to be vehemently anti-imperialist (some left wing authors disagree) but they have still been the sole superpower for the last 20 years and like it or not what goes on in the world is largely influenced by Washington
China may not want to build an empire but they will have political and economic power and will inevitably have a huge influence over us. As someone said earlier they won't call in their debts from the US because it would be catastrophic for the the world economy. They have the power to do it, but fortunately, at the moment they don't have the desire.
Page 18 of 28
19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23