I'd like to see statistical evidence of this. I'm pretty sure that the majority of clubs in England have at least one black player, why would they be against hiring a black manager? I'm sure there are plenty of non-black managers who have applied for multiple jobs and got nowhere.

I'm black before anyone asks or implies that I'm in denial because I'm not black.

If you're good enough then you should have the job. Nothing to do with colour of the skin. Fecking hate the likes of Campbell, Barnes etc coming out saying they don't get a chance as manager or england captaincy simply because the colour of their skin. Utter bollox.

Barnes especially has been shocking as a manager.

tl;dr

Isn't Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink doing quite well?

I find this impossible to believe, I just don't think that institutional racial discrimination exists to that scale in football today.
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You sound young and naive. Do you know most clubs don't even follow a recruitment procedure that exists in almost all other industries? Football is the most incestuous industries that exist. Its not what you know but who you know.

How many black managers are in the La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga...by any chance?

Hmm, this will probably get quite messy on here.

I think there are a couple of issues going on here. On one hand you have certain high profile figures claiming that they are not getting jobs on the basis of their skin colour, when often they have not done much to warrant getting high profile jobs.

On the other hand, there is clearly a disconnect between the fact that of the 92 clubs in the PL & FL, over 25% of players are black and ethnic minority, and yet the number of black and ethnic minority coaches (and not just managers) is closer to 3% (those figures are based on a think tank study at the end of 2014).

Why is there this difference? Well firstly I say I think it's unlikely to be direct racism. If anything, it's probably more down to the type of "old boys" network that is also prevalent in politics and high level business. Power is concentrated with older, white males and tends to stay within those network without outside influence, with only a gradual natural diffusion to other areas of society as demographics change.

the suggestion is that clubs throughout Britain are going out of their way not to hire black managers
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Is that the suggestion? I don't think that's how it works: the problem is that some discrimination is subconscious. (I too would be surprised if anybody was going out of their way to not hire black managers).

There is no rational reason why black managers would be any worse, on average, than white managers, so when people say "it should be the best man for the job"....it is statistically unlikely that the best man IS getting the job, in all cases.

The thing about the Rooney Rule is that it is widely regarded as having been a success in America (or at least that's what I read)....so why wouldn't we want to adopt a policy here that's been successful elsewhere?

Positive discrimination does work.
Ok, you might get somebody initially who isn't really there on merit (but the stats suggest we already have that situation), but eventually it evens out, and the subconscious glass-ceiling gets broken.

If I recall, the Rooney rule only stipulates that a black person be on the short-list; no single club is obliged to employ somebody they don't want.

I'm not convinced by John Barnes' observation about second chances, though, even though I think he's one of the most interesting commentators about racism.

The truth is that he didn't have a very good record in management, and there are are plenty of white managers too who got 2 or 3 jobs and then disappeared. (Though admittedly there are some who get job after job and you can't work out how they got another chance).

comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 2 minutes ago
I find this impossible to believe, I just don't think that institutional racial discrimination exists to that scale in football today.
--------------------------

You sound young and naive. Do you know most clubs don't even follow a recruitment procedure that exists in almost all other industries? Football is the most incestuous industries that exist. Its not what you know but who you know.
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I am anything but young and naive thanks. An industry that is 'incestuous' does not automatically make it racially discriminate. Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand older chairman harbouring some very outdated views, but honestly modern day chairman only give a damn how their club is successful.

If they can get the coach that will get those wins they will hire them.

Lets forget the likes of Barnes and Campbell and think of which players black or otherwise do we think would be good managers.

How about Claude Makelele already doing coaching at PSG. Someone will give the guy a chance.

Also, the argument that correlations in percentages of players of certain background must be represented in other demographics is tenuous at best. Otherwise you could say white people are underrepresented in the PL.

I'm not in the pro-rooney rule camp. America has enough race problems to make question importing some of their policies

Barnes, one of the loud voices in this got a dream ticket at Crltic and made a mess, then Tranmere and then with the Jamacian national team.

I bet a higher percentage of white managers have been sacked.

Jimmy FH is a prime example of hard work at a lower level and then earn his chance.

Should always be the best man for the job

Proportionally,white British players are under represented in football,and this applies to managers.

How many black guys apply to manage,and how many fail due to skin pigment.

Wessie. I agree that it's extremely unlikely that clubs would go out of the way not to hire black managers. I Think that's what the article is suggesting. Obviously they can't come out and say that directly, or they'd create the mother of all shît storms. But that's how I read it. Could be wrong of course

I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule eother if I'm being honest. At the end of the day IF a chairman is indeed racist, he can interview a black applicant as per the ruling and then not hire him anyway. The details of all applicants interviews aren't disclosed to the public which means nobody can compare them to see how everyone's interview compared, meaning the chairman can just turn around and say "I picked the best man for the job" and we'd have to take their word for it.

If anything, it's probably more down to the type of "old boys" network that is also prevalent in politics and high level business. Power is concentrated with older, white males and tends to stay within those network without outside influence, with only a gradual natural diffusion to other areas of society as demographics change.
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Spot on. But that is actually the definition of institutional racism. There is more to it in fact. Even the owners of the clubs are locked out by those who run the clubs. You only have to examine the Cardiff City incident where the manager and the directors of the club were racist against their owner. If that had happened in any other industry, no other owner would have hired the manager because of obvious insubordination. What happened in football? The manager got a new job while the FA hushed up the investigation. Only in football!

Should always be the best man for the job
==========================================================
Yes, but that's the issue.
The stats are implying that the best man isn't getting the job. It's not just for a short-term period, which could happen....it's over a long period of time, which is statistically unlikely.

In order to contend that the best man is getting the job, you would have to come up with a plausible reason why black candidates are worse than the people who are getting the job....over a long period of time, it just isn't likely to be a statistical fluke.

The fact that the Rooney rule was successful in America lends credence to it.

Barnes was dire at Celtic,thankfully.

I wish they would take him back,the racist shower.

comment by terminator1 (U1863)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 2 minutes ago
I find this impossible to believe, I just don't think that institutional racial discrimination exists to that scale in football today.
--------------------------

You sound young and naive. Do you know most clubs don't even follow a recruitment procedure that exists in almost all other industries? Football is the most incestuous industries that exist. Its not what you know but who you know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am anything but young and naive thanks. An industry that is 'incestuous' does not automatically make it racially discriminate. Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it does because there are no legal checks or balances and it is bad business practice that even locks out shareholders.

Thing is, England and America have been conditioned to exist in this "white guilt" bubble. Something that has been perpetuated by white tree hugging lefty types whothink they should tell whites what is offensive to ethnic minorities (in this case). In this case the powers that be, are ramping up the guilt trip, and ppl like Sol Campbell are their current tool.

Truth is, how many black players are applying for badges? This is where the important stat lies, because it gives an indication of the number of ppl in that demographic, actually pursue a career in coaching.

If u have an industry where the majority of applicants are white, of course the pool for elite candidates is heavily swayed to reflect that pool size, and football management is no different.

The system is fine and not as institutionally racist IMO, and whilst there are the odd Malkys, the "old boys club" is dead or dying at the hand of the society's' evolution.

I have strong views on my hatred of white guilt, and yes I get called an "Uncle Tom" all the time. But not every black male is All Sharpton and not every white bloke is Hitler.

At the end of the day IF a chairman is indeed racist, he can interview a black applicant as per the ruling and then not hire him anyway.
----------------------------

Indeed. But then this sort of debate will become unnecessary because it will be obvious that a problem exists if nothing ever changes.

I agree that it's extremely unlikely that clubs would go out of the way not to hire black managers. I Think that's what the article is suggesting. Obviously they can't come out and say that directly, or they'd create the mother of all shît storms.
==========================================================
Ah, ok...that's not what I took from it, tbh.

I think it's more likely to be a kind of "old boys network"
(The same reason the City and Westminster are full of Etonians), but the thing about these networks is that they act almost at a subconscious level, and they can, in the process, exclude an ethnic minority.

Well said Mike.

Lotta white guilt about,and folk have been told what and how to think on many issues,such as implying people oppose Christmas,when many non-Christian's enjoy the celebrations.

We require more free thinkers,from all colours,creeds and backgrounds.

comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 8 seconds ago
At the end of the day IF a chairman is indeed racist, he can interview a black applicant as per the ruling and then not hire him anyway.
----------------------------

Indeed. But then this sort of debate will become unnecessary because it will be obvious that a problem exists if nothing ever changes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So what is it you'd like to see change, or what is it you see as the problem?

The number of black managers?
The number of black applicants being interviewed?

comment by Mike "Redders out" (U15513)
posted 5 minutes ago

I have strong views on my hatred of white guilt, and yes I get called an "Uncle Tom" all the time. But not every black male is All Sharpton and not every white bloke is Hitler.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me guess by your references that you are American. Black guilt is more an American trait than an English one.

We do have the empire but to be honest imperialism is almost a shared identity creating institutions like the commonwealth.

I think it's racist to say things need to change. The talk of guys like Barnes getting chances, simply because he was a terrible manager. While obviously Hughton is a good/decent manager so gets chances.