Racism in football has come a long way since the 60's/70's, especially on the terraces (well, seats then)
But if I were a betting man I'd reckon the boardrooms with the rich upper class owners might be lagging behind slightly, probably a class thing.
The quicker we realise that the club's are merely a business, nothing more, the better we will be for it.
You think ticket prices reflect the local population?? Or is it based on demand?
Mourinho even said done signings are commercial.. After Chelsea signed that Japanese striker
TV deals, advertising etc.. The soul is being ripped out of these clubs... And nothing will stop it. It's business now.
You'll be buying shares in your club soon..... Wait a minute...
Same material, same costs to make.
Check the prices of a Liverpool shirt for next season... Compared to a championship one...
humans suck
i'd move to mars but there is no football or põrn
Kaiser - we dont all 'suck'
Speak for yourself
comment by Lefty - The Troll Hunter (U17934)
posted 9 minutes ago
Not saying they wouldn't. But, looking at all the black players in the Premiership, for decades, and the lack of representation in management.... I think it's fair to ask.
Personally, the best man for the job is an easy comment to make... But unless all are given a fair chance, how can that question be truly answered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is racism in football yes and it reflects the racism in society.
But the solutions put forward to solving the racism in regards to football management can be solved by talking the longer route: Solving racism in society.
Why Do I criticise the rooney rule?
A) Based on racial discrimination. (positive). Fighting racism with racism? I would not sign up to that.
B) Lack of correlations in demographics does not equate to racism, that's poor evidence.
C) Racism will still be present in society. Football can influence society but it will be limited.
If you solved racism by educating people and kids, about assocations based on someone's identity which they cannot change, it will have a far greater reaching effect.
This is difficult of course because, nobody has solved it so far and because as humans we instinctively make generalisations so we can manage our world and our environment.
But it can be done, just that it will take a long time.
I want to live in the world, that everybody is treated equally AND held to the same standards, we are all human after all.
comment by Lefty - The Troll Hunter (U17934)
posted 20 minutes ago
The next generation will be irrelevant. There will be more foreign ceo's (translation = managers) running English club's
-----------------------
What logic are you using to say this? Of course it's relevant. If there are more black managers in the next 10-20 years, then it would suggest that nothing is wrong because there are now more black players than there were 10-20 years ago. Which suggests that racism in football is gone/going.
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 1 hour, 55 minutes ago
Should always be the best man for the job
==========================================================
Yes, but that's the issue.
The stats are implying that the best man isn't getting the job. It's not just for a short-term period, which could happen....it's over a long period of time, which is statistically unlikely.
In order to contend that the best man is getting the job, you would have to come up with a plausible reason why black candidates are worse than the people who are getting the job....over a long period of time, it just isn't likely to be a statistical fluke.
The fact that the Rooney rule was successful in America lends credence to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used Barnes, a loud voice in all of this as an example of a manager who was simply not good enough and failed three times.
But also a manager in Hasslebank who is a hit and gaining vital experience and will climb the ladder
racism can't be 'solved'. It's an innate reaction and will never end.
It can be minimised though because a big part of it is rationalised / propagated through socialisation and learned behaviour.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 4 hours ago
"Could it just be that these people are not good enough to make it as managers, and they just happen to be black?"
Racist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. "These people" ...
Aren't there 3 black managers in the English leagues?
That's around 3.3% and the black population in England is 2.3% based on the last census. Now considering the number of English managers is nowhere close to 100% of those 92 clubs, it beefs up that percentage even more.
So technically it's proportionate. In 20 years, I think we'll see a big swing towards hiring of black managers as there are far more black players today than there were 20/30 years ago so it's natural progression.
What I find incredibly annoying is that nobody ever mentions Asian managers in this debate when 5.1% of the British population is Asian compared to 0% of managers in the football league.
I just can't for the life of me fathom why somebody who wants to make money would pass over the best person for the job, knowing that person would give them the best chance of making money. Not only that but I can't think of any black managers who have been very good. I mean if you want to make money you're not going to employ somebody who hasn't proved themselves, who hasn't shown potential.
Which black manager has shown potential or been a success at another club in the UK? I can think only of the England Ladies manager a while back, she seemed to have done a very good job with them. In fact who are all these great black managers around the world who have done well and warrant all these jobs?
The simple fact is if there are 7 billion people in the world and 1 billion are black, there are going to be less and that's even before you get into the percentage in football which I would guess would be even lower.
How many managers in the Premier League are even English? Five possibly? So are they discrimination against English or are they trying to do what they consider is best for their club and hiring managers that have proved themselves elsewhere? The top seven clubs in the league don't have an English manager, one has a British manager.
John Barnes actually said that black managers are not given a second chance which is contradictory because he had three chances. Baffled as to why Celtic appointed him in the first place. Lenny Henry said that there is not enough black representation on the television so I get the impression that it's an ethnic minority just trying to draw attention to itself. This has possibly already been said but what would the point be of appointing managers just because they are black? If they are appointed for that reason(or excuse) and not because of skill then the standards would plummet as the coaches just aren't good enough.
Who at the moment would make a good black coach? Adebayor? No, I don't think so. It applies that usually great players don't make good managers, there are rare exceptions I agree but that's the case whether black or white. John Barnes was a great player but not a good manager. Bobby Charlton was a great player but not a good coach as was Hoddle. So it applies to black players too.
football is disgustingly introverted. all about who you know and then you get far.
i had one of my coaching courses paid for me because i knew the daughter of a scottish football league club chairman it was an opportunity i wouldnt of had if not meeting the woman.then i went on this course there was an ex scottish international in my group he did not even complete all the tasks left early but still got the qualification same as me. utter joke in football.
however i do not believe racism exists up and down the pyramid it simply does not.
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc. john barnes got given the celtic job ine of the biggest jobs in british football at the time. hope powell one of the most pioneering womens coaches has her colour ever held her back? no chance she is a great woman who has tons to offer the game.
i hate pidgeon holing any race or religion. the facts show that Asians and black candidates primarily play cricket. much in the sameway middle class people get in to rugby union. not everyone of course but when your talking a majority check the stats.
if there was any issues of racisms such as mackay they should be banned for life.
this rooney rule is a load of rubbish. pick the best candidate out of the group simple.
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc.
-------------
Who's the etc?
MUD
Just out of interest, what percentage of black managers do you think there should be at the 92 English football league clubs?
comment by If anyone can, Emre Can... And don't call me Schürrle (U3979)
posted 5 minutes ago
MUD
Just out of interest, what percentage of black managers do you think there should be at the 92 English football league clubs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not know and I am against the idea of quotas, etc. I do know that there is discrimination in the job market and there is evidence to support this. Why some think football is immune is most amusing.
Hasselbaink doing a top job at Burton,Paul Ince did a great job at macclesfield/mk dons but failed at Blackburn and Blackpool i think. How many black coaches are there? How many are applying for jobs and being overlooked for lesser candidates? Without these stats you cannot begin to form an accurate conclusion.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 52 minutes ago
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 52 minutes ago
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it is not. The Homegrown rule discriminates against anyone that is not English and forces clubs to have a certain number of English men in their squad.
The Rooney rule says give some black men an interview. The only guarantee is an interview, nothing else.
One rule tries to fix historical injustice and prejudice. The other rule ensures English players receive preferential treatment.
I think there is an issue and it's naive to think otherwise.
It's a generational thing.
In most boardrooms are old white men.
Old white men are more likely to have racist views, even if they don't know it and its subconscious.
They lived through a time where it was ok to have 'no blacks' signs in a shop window.
I think overtime it will continue to get better, but that doesn't help black managers/coaches now, so I can understand why they speak out about it.
John Barnes speaks very eloquently and intelligently on race, so for people to suggest he just has a chip on his shoulder is astonishing really.
Some people really have no idea.
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
_____________
Current England team contains Sterling, Sturridge, Welbeck, Delph etc. It's actually a disproportionately high number of black players compared to English population statistics but who cares they are the best players in the country therefore they play.
comment by If anyone can, Emre Can... And don't call me Schürrle (U3979)
posted 36 seconds ago
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
_____________
Current England team contains Sterling, Sturridge, Welbeck, Delph etc. It's actually a disproportionately high number of black players compared to English population statistics but who cares they are the best players in the country therefore they play.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are comparing apples and oranges
Sign in if you want to comment
Black Managers......
Page 5 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9
posted on 16/4/15
Racism in football has come a long way since the 60's/70's, especially on the terraces (well, seats then)
But if I were a betting man I'd reckon the boardrooms with the rich upper class owners might be lagging behind slightly, probably a class thing.
posted on 16/4/15
The quicker we realise that the club's are merely a business, nothing more, the better we will be for it.
You think ticket prices reflect the local population?? Or is it based on demand?
Mourinho even said done signings are commercial.. After Chelsea signed that Japanese striker
TV deals, advertising etc.. The soul is being ripped out of these clubs... And nothing will stop it. It's business now.
You'll be buying shares in your club soon..... Wait a minute...
posted on 16/4/15
Same material, same costs to make.
Check the prices of a Liverpool shirt for next season... Compared to a championship one...
posted on 16/4/15
humans suck
i'd move to mars but there is no football or põrn
posted on 16/4/15
Kaiser - we dont all 'suck'
Speak for yourself
posted on 16/4/15
comment by Lefty - The Troll Hunter (U17934)
posted 9 minutes ago
Not saying they wouldn't. But, looking at all the black players in the Premiership, for decades, and the lack of representation in management.... I think it's fair to ask.
Personally, the best man for the job is an easy comment to make... But unless all are given a fair chance, how can that question be truly answered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is racism in football yes and it reflects the racism in society.
But the solutions put forward to solving the racism in regards to football management can be solved by talking the longer route: Solving racism in society.
Why Do I criticise the rooney rule?
A) Based on racial discrimination. (positive). Fighting racism with racism? I would not sign up to that.
B) Lack of correlations in demographics does not equate to racism, that's poor evidence.
C) Racism will still be present in society. Football can influence society but it will be limited.
If you solved racism by educating people and kids, about assocations based on someone's identity which they cannot change, it will have a far greater reaching effect.
This is difficult of course because, nobody has solved it so far and because as humans we instinctively make generalisations so we can manage our world and our environment.
But it can be done, just that it will take a long time.
I want to live in the world, that everybody is treated equally AND held to the same standards, we are all human after all.
posted on 16/4/15
comment by Lefty - The Troll Hunter (U17934)
posted 20 minutes ago
The next generation will be irrelevant. There will be more foreign ceo's (translation = managers) running English club's
-----------------------
What logic are you using to say this? Of course it's relevant. If there are more black managers in the next 10-20 years, then it would suggest that nothing is wrong because there are now more black players than there were 10-20 years ago. Which suggests that racism in football is gone/going.
posted on 16/4/15
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 1 hour, 55 minutes ago
Should always be the best man for the job
==========================================================
Yes, but that's the issue.
The stats are implying that the best man isn't getting the job. It's not just for a short-term period, which could happen....it's over a long period of time, which is statistically unlikely.
In order to contend that the best man is getting the job, you would have to come up with a plausible reason why black candidates are worse than the people who are getting the job....over a long period of time, it just isn't likely to be a statistical fluke.
The fact that the Rooney rule was successful in America lends credence to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I used Barnes, a loud voice in all of this as an example of a manager who was simply not good enough and failed three times.
But also a manager in Hasslebank who is a hit and gaining vital experience and will climb the ladder
posted on 16/4/15
racism can't be 'solved'. It's an innate reaction and will never end.
It can be minimised though because a big part of it is rationalised / propagated through socialisation and learned behaviour.
posted on 17/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 4 hours ago
"Could it just be that these people are not good enough to make it as managers, and they just happen to be black?"
Racist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. "These people" ...
posted on 17/4/15
Aren't there 3 black managers in the English leagues?
That's around 3.3% and the black population in England is 2.3% based on the last census. Now considering the number of English managers is nowhere close to 100% of those 92 clubs, it beefs up that percentage even more.
So technically it's proportionate. In 20 years, I think we'll see a big swing towards hiring of black managers as there are far more black players today than there were 20/30 years ago so it's natural progression.
What I find incredibly annoying is that nobody ever mentions Asian managers in this debate when 5.1% of the British population is Asian compared to 0% of managers in the football league.
posted on 17/4/15
I just can't for the life of me fathom why somebody who wants to make money would pass over the best person for the job, knowing that person would give them the best chance of making money. Not only that but I can't think of any black managers who have been very good. I mean if you want to make money you're not going to employ somebody who hasn't proved themselves, who hasn't shown potential.
Which black manager has shown potential or been a success at another club in the UK? I can think only of the England Ladies manager a while back, she seemed to have done a very good job with them. In fact who are all these great black managers around the world who have done well and warrant all these jobs?
The simple fact is if there are 7 billion people in the world and 1 billion are black, there are going to be less and that's even before you get into the percentage in football which I would guess would be even lower.
How many managers in the Premier League are even English? Five possibly? So are they discrimination against English or are they trying to do what they consider is best for their club and hiring managers that have proved themselves elsewhere? The top seven clubs in the league don't have an English manager, one has a British manager.
posted on 17/4/15
John Barnes actually said that black managers are not given a second chance which is contradictory because he had three chances. Baffled as to why Celtic appointed him in the first place. Lenny Henry said that there is not enough black representation on the television so I get the impression that it's an ethnic minority just trying to draw attention to itself. This has possibly already been said but what would the point be of appointing managers just because they are black? If they are appointed for that reason(or excuse) and not because of skill then the standards would plummet as the coaches just aren't good enough.
Who at the moment would make a good black coach? Adebayor? No, I don't think so. It applies that usually great players don't make good managers, there are rare exceptions I agree but that's the case whether black or white. John Barnes was a great player but not a good manager. Bobby Charlton was a great player but not a good coach as was Hoddle. So it applies to black players too.
posted on 17/4/15
football is disgustingly introverted. all about who you know and then you get far.
i had one of my coaching courses paid for me because i knew the daughter of a scottish football league club chairman it was an opportunity i wouldnt of had if not meeting the woman.then i went on this course there was an ex scottish international in my group he did not even complete all the tasks left early but still got the qualification same as me. utter joke in football.
however i do not believe racism exists up and down the pyramid it simply does not.
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc. john barnes got given the celtic job ine of the biggest jobs in british football at the time. hope powell one of the most pioneering womens coaches has her colour ever held her back? no chance she is a great woman who has tons to offer the game.
i hate pidgeon holing any race or religion. the facts show that Asians and black candidates primarily play cricket. much in the sameway middle class people get in to rugby union. not everyone of course but when your talking a majority check the stats.
if there was any issues of racisms such as mackay they should be banned for life.
this rooney rule is a load of rubbish. pick the best candidate out of the group simple.
posted on 17/4/15
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
posted on 17/4/15
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc.
-------------
Who's the etc?
posted on 17/4/15
MUD
Just out of interest, what percentage of black managers do you think there should be at the 92 English football league clubs?
posted on 17/4/15
comment by If anyone can, Emre Can... And don't call me Schürrle (U3979)
posted 5 minutes ago
MUD
Just out of interest, what percentage of black managers do you think there should be at the 92 English football league clubs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not know and I am against the idea of quotas, etc. I do know that there is discrimination in the job market and there is evidence to support this. Why some think football is immune is most amusing.
posted on 17/4/15
Hasselbaink doing a top job at Burton,Paul Ince did a great job at macclesfield/mk dons but failed at Blackburn and Blackpool i think. How many black coaches are there? How many are applying for jobs and being overlooked for lesser candidates? Without these stats you cannot begin to form an accurate conclusion.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 52 minutes ago
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by There'sOnlyOneReds (U1721)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 52 minutes ago
What makes me laugh here is that the same people who are for positive discrimination for homegrown english boys in their teams do not see the similarities here.
They are for it to make the national team better but ignore that the rooney rule tries to fix historical injustice.
I do not support either but the Rooney Rule is more noble than the homegrown one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it is not. The Homegrown rule discriminates against anyone that is not English and forces clubs to have a certain number of English men in their squad.
The Rooney rule says give some black men an interview. The only guarantee is an interview, nothing else.
One rule tries to fix historical injustice and prejudice. The other rule ensures English players receive preferential treatment.
posted on 17/4/15
I think there is an issue and it's naive to think otherwise.
It's a generational thing.
In most boardrooms are old white men.
Old white men are more likely to have racist views, even if they don't know it and its subconscious.
They lived through a time where it was ok to have 'no blacks' signs in a shop window.
I think overtime it will continue to get better, but that doesn't help black managers/coaches now, so I can understand why they speak out about it.
John Barnes speaks very eloquently and intelligently on race, so for people to suggest he just has a chip on his shoulder is astonishing really.
Some people really have no idea.
posted on 17/4/15
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
_____________
Current England team contains Sterling, Sturridge, Welbeck, Delph etc. It's actually a disproportionately high number of black players compared to English population statistics but who cares they are the best players in the country therefore they play.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by If anyone can, Emre Can... And don't call me Schürrle (U3979)
posted 36 seconds ago
Black people can be homegrown also. So that point is irrelevant.
_____________
Current England team contains Sterling, Sturridge, Welbeck, Delph etc. It's actually a disproportionately high number of black players compared to English population statistics but who cares they are the best players in the country therefore they play.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are comparing apples and oranges
Page 5 of 9
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