There arent enough Black female football managers and there arent enough Gay football managers and there is a distinct lack of Gay Black female football managers, its disgusting and it needs to be addressed urgently
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 2 minutes ago
I know, you think it's some Liverpool thing
=======================================================
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
So leaving that aside, what is the downside of the Rooney rule?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm against any kind of discrimination, be it positive or negative. Where do you draw the line? Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
**
I dont think that would go far enough
How do you know there aren't enough gay football managers, yeah yeah? Perhaps your Gaydar isn't as good as you thought it was?
They wouldn't necessarily tell you, would they?
Can you tell me what the downside of the Rooney rule is? What's the disadvantage?
Can you tell me what the downside of the Rooney rule is? What's the disadvantage?
----------------
It would cause discord where there is none.
It would cause discord where there is none.
==========================================================
Why would it cause discord?
Did it cause discord in America, where it's regarded as a success?
Why would it cause discord?
-------------------
They pay lip service.it has not increased the employment of more ethnic managers.
They pay lip service.it has not increased the employment of more ethnic managers
==========================================================
Who pays lip service?
According to what I've read, it HAS increased the employment of more ethnic managers in the US, and they are now thinking of extending it to college football.
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 12 minutes ago
It would cause discord where there is none.
==========================================================
Why would it cause discord?
Did it cause discord in America, where it's regarded as a success?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Check my post Wessie a few back for my reservations on the rooney rule.
how is racism in America I imagine it still exists? If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
Changing peoples attitudes through education is largely the longer and more comprehensive route.
We already have anti-discrimination laws for employment why does football need an extra rule?
Why not the Rooney Rule for Employment in general?
Don't you think a more rigouress assessment would be needed of how many black players have tried to get into management vs other backgrounds and comparing who was successful and why?
Sounds better than using 25% of black players as some indicator and then introducing the American rooney rule.
Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
==============================
Why do people do this? Do these minorities form 25% of our staff in the English football game? No. So why take it to an extreme?
Fact is a report spanning three years was conducted and every piece of statistical evidence available points to under representation. So does various forms of anecdotal evidence from people effected.
In light of such evidence what is the response from many?
No problem here.
It literally makes no sense.
what was the proportion of black players in the league 15 years ago (considering most managers are well into their 40s and older)
if you're going to use % of race of players on the pitch, at least age match what the demographics were when managers were of 'player age'.
I think it's definitely underrepresented, but if we're going to assess this we may as well try and make it apples to apples.
If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
=========================================================
Well if it ends racial discrimination, what would be wrong with that? You think that's a bad thing?
But correcting a bias against an ethnic minority does not discriminate against whites. It just turns it into a meritocracy.
And even if it fails, what is the cost? Extra admin costs for the clubs, is that what you'd object to?
The only statistic that really matter is number of coaches qualified from BME backgrounds to number of coaches qualified from BME backgrounds employed.
That's it. They can't get the job unless qualified so all other percentages are moot.
that might overlook people who chose not to go for it because they felt they had no chance in a 'racist institution' Hoody
metrics and stats are a funny game that way
I agree but they interviewed hundreds of people as well as looked at the data. You have to question why they feel that way in the first place.
No you could put it down to some sort of generic low self esteem but I highly doubt that.
Dr Steven Bradbury interviewed one man, whom he prefers not to name, who is a 40-something ex-pro who played more than 500 matches at Premier League and Championship level and now holds a Uefa Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification.
He has applied for 43 jobs in football clubs, but only received three interviews.
you then have to break it down into roles applied for
were they all head jobs
were they coaching roles in his position
did he work with anyone at those clubs in the past (arguably most important)
for non-black badge holders applying with similar match to role/network profile, what was their % of interviews received.
I'm not arguing either way, just off on a stats/business analysis tangent
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 13 minutes ago
If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
=========================================================
Well if it ends racial discrimination, what would be wrong with that? You think that's a bad thing?
But correcting a bias against an ethnic minority does not discriminate against whites. It just turns it into a meritocracy.
And even if it fails, what is the cost? Extra admin costs for the clubs, is that what you'd object to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am for ending racial discrimination, naturally, but considering racism still exists where you claim it is fixed I'd say it's not a good solution.
America has many problems based on race, in my opinion, partly because race is still a defining factor of someones identity and you are proposing interviewing people based on their race, and that isn't acceptable in my book.
What do you think a racist owner thinks if his non white coach ***** up. Do you think his racism will come back to the fore? I bet it will
Fighting racism with racism is wrong, and I'm not surprised racism is still rife in America.
Fix racism in society first. Judge people based on who they are and their ideas not their background and race.
comment by The Kaiser's Trainers (U5676)
posted 22 minutes ago
you then have to break it down into roles applied for
were they all head jobs
were they coaching roles in his position
did he work with anyone at those clubs in the past (arguably most important)
for non-black badge holders applying with similar match to role/network profile, what was their % of interviews received.
I'm not arguing either way, just off on a stats/business analysis tangent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep - I agree all good questions.
I guess the simplest way I could put it, other than going through the whole report, is that the investigation focused on all those aspects.
It was thorough by all accounts and took place over three years conducted by a doctor who holds a BSc (Hons) degree in Sociology, a Postgraduate Diploma in Information Technology, a Master’s degree in Public Order and a PhD in the Sociology of Sport.
After three years of research he concluded that there was “a systematic denial of talent and ambition”.
The Rooney rule is no different to Nottingham City council guaranteeing interviews for people with disabilities.
I see no downside to it personally as we cannot control all things but what you can you must in the interests of fairness in my opinion.
"After three years of research he concluded that there was “a systematic denial of talent and ambition”."
I don't think he's wrong
But in my past, I also know lots of ways to make the 'objective' data look like something it isn't. If that's what I wanted to do. Or was asked to do
the analysts who produce the 'reality' of the economy stats for political parties always seem to draw different conclusions from the same source data
shocking
But for the record, I'm certain there is bias and underrepresentation based on race. how much and why is a tricky thing to figure out even if you are objective though.
considering racism still exists where you claim it is fixed I'd say it's not a good solution.
===========================================================
I didn't say it was fixed in American society, I said the Rooney rule is largely considered to have been a success. If you fix it in a high-profile sport, it surely sends a positive message?
It's not worth doing it in sport, because it still exists outside of sport? Where's the logic in that?
========================================================
Fighting racism with racism is wrong, and I'm not surprised racism is still rife in America.
========================================================
Well, it's hardly been eliminated from this country, has it?, and I doubt that it has made things worse in America. Is that what worries you about it, that it'll make things worse?
But correcting a bias is not racism, it is correcting a situation in which the best man is not always getting the job. Which means it's more of a meritocracy...what's racist about that?
If there is even the possibility that there's bias, what would be wrong with attempting a fix, given that there's very little downside?
We're worried about the possibility that it might discriminate against whites, but we're not worried that it might already be discriminating against blacks? How does that work?
I don’t think we need to worry about an overtly racist owner becoming even more racist. The Rooney rule doesn not oblige him to employ a black manager, and it’s not aimed at people who are already overtly racist...that’s a different problem. It’s aimed at subconscious, institutional racism
.
If it works, great, if it doesn't, so what?....nothing's been lost.
discriminating people because of their race is racial discrimination no matter the objective.
Oh I am worried discriminating about non whites, I just don't agree with the rooney rule.
fixing as you put it, 'subconscious institutional racism' can be fixed through education.
It's just it will take longer.
But it will help negate racism in and outside of football.
Like I said you claim 'it works', but racism is still prevalent. You say there is little downside. I would say discrimination based on race is a big downside no matter the good intentions. I think that's the difference between me and you. I do not think it's correct or acceptable to do that and you do.
We simply disagree on this vital point.
Sometimes the ends justify the means, not in this case. Not with the history of racism through the times, it's not something to take lightly.
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 2 hours, 55 minutes ago
I know, you think it's some Liverpool thing
=======================================================
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
So leaving that aside, what is the downside of the Rooney rule?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would it increase the number of minority coaches, physio, managers?
Someone earlier said that at board level they are racists or unknown to them they are programmed to be that way.
So they would always pick the white guy. I say, give it to the guy who will do the best job and has the right qualifications to do it
fixing as you put it, 'subconscious institutional racism' can be fixed through education.
==========================================================
Well, history suggests that it can’t. Women were under-represented in parliament for the best part of 100 years until the political parties discriminated positively, and there’s still a way to go even with that.
Where there is a long history of prejudice, it gets you over the psychological barrier,and the lack of 'role models'.
Education "might take a bit longer".....like 100 years longer?
There is no ‘psychological barrier the other way, so if it leads to discrimination against whites, (and there is no evidence that that’s what happened in America), it’s much easier to correct, so what's the problem?
==========================================================
Like I said you claim 'it works',
==========================================================
I don’t know if it will work, I just said it’s deemed to have worked in America, so what’s the harm in trying it?
==========================================================
but racism is still prevalent.
==========================================================
But nobody ever said that eliminating it from sport would eliminate it from society. Even though it’s deemed a success in America, you’re declaring it a failure because it hasn’t eliminated rednecks from Alabama? That just makes no sense.
==========================================================
You say there is little downside. I would say discrimination based on race is a big downside no matter the good intentions.
==========================================================
Well, the evidence suggests we already have discrimination based on race. It's one of many barriers to meritocracy that we already have.
What you seem concerned about is that the Rooney rule might correct it too far the other way (even though there’s no evidence that it did in America, and in any case it’s much much easier to fix that, but you'd rather it stayed the way it is, for however long "education" takes).
==========================================
I think that's the difference between me and you. I do not think it's correct or acceptable to do that and you do.
==========================================================
Yes, I sort of agree.
I think the difference between me and you is that you are not willing to try practical solutions in case they compromise some grand principle you’ve convinced yourself of (even though the evidence suggests that the same principle is already being compromised).
If it creates a problem the other way around (which is unlikely anyway), it will be a much easier problem to fix.
I think it’s something that blocks a lot of practical solutions to a lot of problems, and I don’t get it...we just bumble along with the status quo, dreaming up "principled" excuses not to fix them.
Again I make this point. There is discrimination in the employment market for BMEs. More than enough evidence.
Why do people think football is any different?
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Black Managers......
Page 8 of 9
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posted on 17/4/15
There arent enough Black female football managers and there arent enough Gay football managers and there is a distinct lack of Gay Black female football managers, its disgusting and it needs to be addressed urgently
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 2 minutes ago
I know, you think it's some Liverpool thing
=======================================================
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
So leaving that aside, what is the downside of the Rooney rule?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm against any kind of discrimination, be it positive or negative. Where do you draw the line? Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
posted on 17/4/15
Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
**
I dont think that would go far enough
posted on 17/4/15
How do you know there aren't enough gay football managers, yeah yeah? Perhaps your Gaydar isn't as good as you thought it was?
They wouldn't necessarily tell you, would they?
Can you tell me what the downside of the Rooney rule is? What's the disadvantage?
posted on 17/4/15
Can you tell me what the downside of the Rooney rule is? What's the disadvantage?
----------------
It would cause discord where there is none.
posted on 17/4/15
It would cause discord where there is none.
==========================================================
Why would it cause discord?
Did it cause discord in America, where it's regarded as a success?
posted on 17/4/15
Why would it cause discord?
-------------------
They pay lip service.it has not increased the employment of more ethnic managers.
posted on 17/4/15
They pay lip service.it has not increased the employment of more ethnic managers
==========================================================
Who pays lip service?
According to what I've read, it HAS increased the employment of more ethnic managers in the US, and they are now thinking of extending it to college football.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 12 minutes ago
It would cause discord where there is none.
==========================================================
Why would it cause discord?
Did it cause discord in America, where it's regarded as a success?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Check my post Wessie a few back for my reservations on the rooney rule.
how is racism in America I imagine it still exists? If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
Changing peoples attitudes through education is largely the longer and more comprehensive route.
We already have anti-discrimination laws for employment why does football need an extra rule?
Why not the Rooney Rule for Employment in general?
Don't you think a more rigouress assessment would be needed of how many black players have tried to get into management vs other backgrounds and comparing who was successful and why?
Sounds better than using 25% of black players as some indicator and then introducing the American rooney rule.
posted on 17/4/15
Do we insist that at least one black, Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Pole, Greek etc has to be allocated a spot at every interview?
==============================
Why do people do this? Do these minorities form 25% of our staff in the English football game? No. So why take it to an extreme?
Fact is a report spanning three years was conducted and every piece of statistical evidence available points to under representation. So does various forms of anecdotal evidence from people effected.
In light of such evidence what is the response from many?
No problem here.
It literally makes no sense.
posted on 17/4/15
what was the proportion of black players in the league 15 years ago (considering most managers are well into their 40s and older)
if you're going to use % of race of players on the pitch, at least age match what the demographics were when managers were of 'player age'.
I think it's definitely underrepresented, but if we're going to assess this we may as well try and make it apples to apples.
posted on 17/4/15
If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
=========================================================
Well if it ends racial discrimination, what would be wrong with that? You think that's a bad thing?
But correcting a bias against an ethnic minority does not discriminate against whites. It just turns it into a meritocracy.
And even if it fails, what is the cost? Extra admin costs for the clubs, is that what you'd object to?
posted on 17/4/15
The only statistic that really matter is number of coaches qualified from BME backgrounds to number of coaches qualified from BME backgrounds employed.
That's it. They can't get the job unless qualified so all other percentages are moot.
posted on 17/4/15
that might overlook people who chose not to go for it because they felt they had no chance in a 'racist institution' Hoody
metrics and stats are a funny game that way
posted on 17/4/15
I agree but they interviewed hundreds of people as well as looked at the data. You have to question why they feel that way in the first place.
No you could put it down to some sort of generic low self esteem but I highly doubt that.
Dr Steven Bradbury interviewed one man, whom he prefers not to name, who is a 40-something ex-pro who played more than 500 matches at Premier League and Championship level and now holds a Uefa Pro Licence, the highest coaching qualification.
He has applied for 43 jobs in football clubs, but only received three interviews.
posted on 17/4/15
you then have to break it down into roles applied for
were they all head jobs
were they coaching roles in his position
did he work with anyone at those clubs in the past (arguably most important)
for non-black badge holders applying with similar match to role/network profile, what was their % of interviews received.
I'm not arguing either way, just off on a stats/business analysis tangent
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 13 minutes ago
If they want to use racial discrimination to end racial discrimination its their choice. Doesn't have to be ours.
=========================================================
Well if it ends racial discrimination, what would be wrong with that? You think that's a bad thing?
But correcting a bias against an ethnic minority does not discriminate against whites. It just turns it into a meritocracy.
And even if it fails, what is the cost? Extra admin costs for the clubs, is that what you'd object to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am for ending racial discrimination, naturally, but considering racism still exists where you claim it is fixed I'd say it's not a good solution.
America has many problems based on race, in my opinion, partly because race is still a defining factor of someones identity and you are proposing interviewing people based on their race, and that isn't acceptable in my book.
What do you think a racist owner thinks if his non white coach ***** up. Do you think his racism will come back to the fore? I bet it will
Fighting racism with racism is wrong, and I'm not surprised racism is still rife in America.
Fix racism in society first. Judge people based on who they are and their ideas not their background and race.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by The Kaiser's Trainers (U5676)
posted 22 minutes ago
you then have to break it down into roles applied for
were they all head jobs
were they coaching roles in his position
did he work with anyone at those clubs in the past (arguably most important)
for non-black badge holders applying with similar match to role/network profile, what was their % of interviews received.
I'm not arguing either way, just off on a stats/business analysis tangent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep - I agree all good questions.
I guess the simplest way I could put it, other than going through the whole report, is that the investigation focused on all those aspects.
It was thorough by all accounts and took place over three years conducted by a doctor who holds a BSc (Hons) degree in Sociology, a Postgraduate Diploma in Information Technology, a Master’s degree in Public Order and a PhD in the Sociology of Sport.
After three years of research he concluded that there was “a systematic denial of talent and ambition”.
posted on 17/4/15
The Rooney rule is no different to Nottingham City council guaranteeing interviews for people with disabilities.
I see no downside to it personally as we cannot control all things but what you can you must in the interests of fairness in my opinion.
posted on 17/4/15
"After three years of research he concluded that there was “a systematic denial of talent and ambition”."
I don't think he's wrong
But in my past, I also know lots of ways to make the 'objective' data look like something it isn't. If that's what I wanted to do. Or was asked to do
the analysts who produce the 'reality' of the economy stats for political parties always seem to draw different conclusions from the same source data
shocking
But for the record, I'm certain there is bias and underrepresentation based on race. how much and why is a tricky thing to figure out even if you are objective though.
posted on 17/4/15
considering racism still exists where you claim it is fixed I'd say it's not a good solution.
===========================================================
I didn't say it was fixed in American society, I said the Rooney rule is largely considered to have been a success. If you fix it in a high-profile sport, it surely sends a positive message?
It's not worth doing it in sport, because it still exists outside of sport? Where's the logic in that?
========================================================
Fighting racism with racism is wrong, and I'm not surprised racism is still rife in America.
========================================================
Well, it's hardly been eliminated from this country, has it?, and I doubt that it has made things worse in America. Is that what worries you about it, that it'll make things worse?
But correcting a bias is not racism, it is correcting a situation in which the best man is not always getting the job. Which means it's more of a meritocracy...what's racist about that?
If there is even the possibility that there's bias, what would be wrong with attempting a fix, given that there's very little downside?
We're worried about the possibility that it might discriminate against whites, but we're not worried that it might already be discriminating against blacks? How does that work?
I don’t think we need to worry about an overtly racist owner becoming even more racist. The Rooney rule doesn not oblige him to employ a black manager, and it’s not aimed at people who are already overtly racist...that’s a different problem. It’s aimed at subconscious, institutional racism
.
If it works, great, if it doesn't, so what?....nothing's been lost.
posted on 17/4/15
discriminating people because of their race is racial discrimination no matter the objective.
Oh I am worried discriminating about non whites, I just don't agree with the rooney rule.
fixing as you put it, 'subconscious institutional racism' can be fixed through education.
It's just it will take longer.
But it will help negate racism in and outside of football.
Like I said you claim 'it works', but racism is still prevalent. You say there is little downside. I would say discrimination based on race is a big downside no matter the good intentions. I think that's the difference between me and you. I do not think it's correct or acceptable to do that and you do.
We simply disagree on this vital point.
Sometimes the ends justify the means, not in this case. Not with the history of racism through the times, it's not something to take lightly.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Wessie Road (U10652)
posted 2 hours, 55 minutes ago
I know, you think it's some Liverpool thing
=======================================================
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
So leaving that aside, what is the downside of the Rooney rule?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would it increase the number of minority coaches, physio, managers?
Someone earlier said that at board level they are racists or unknown to them they are programmed to be that way.
So they would always pick the white guy. I say, give it to the guy who will do the best job and has the right qualifications to do it
posted on 17/4/15
fixing as you put it, 'subconscious institutional racism' can be fixed through education.
==========================================================
Well, history suggests that it can’t. Women were under-represented in parliament for the best part of 100 years until the political parties discriminated positively, and there’s still a way to go even with that.
Where there is a long history of prejudice, it gets you over the psychological barrier,and the lack of 'role models'.
Education "might take a bit longer".....like 100 years longer?
There is no ‘psychological barrier the other way, so if it leads to discrimination against whites, (and there is no evidence that that’s what happened in America), it’s much easier to correct, so what's the problem?
==========================================================
Like I said you claim 'it works',
==========================================================
I don’t know if it will work, I just said it’s deemed to have worked in America, so what’s the harm in trying it?
==========================================================
but racism is still prevalent.
==========================================================
But nobody ever said that eliminating it from sport would eliminate it from society. Even though it’s deemed a success in America, you’re declaring it a failure because it hasn’t eliminated rednecks from Alabama? That just makes no sense.
==========================================================
You say there is little downside. I would say discrimination based on race is a big downside no matter the good intentions.
==========================================================
Well, the evidence suggests we already have discrimination based on race. It's one of many barriers to meritocracy that we already have.
What you seem concerned about is that the Rooney rule might correct it too far the other way (even though there’s no evidence that it did in America, and in any case it’s much much easier to fix that, but you'd rather it stayed the way it is, for however long "education" takes).
==========================================
I think that's the difference between me and you. I do not think it's correct or acceptable to do that and you do.
==========================================================
Yes, I sort of agree.
I think the difference between me and you is that you are not willing to try practical solutions in case they compromise some grand principle you’ve convinced yourself of (even though the evidence suggests that the same principle is already being compromised).
If it creates a problem the other way around (which is unlikely anyway), it will be a much easier problem to fix.
I think it’s something that blocks a lot of practical solutions to a lot of problems, and I don’t get it...we just bumble along with the status quo, dreaming up "principled" excuses not to fix them.
posted on 17/4/15
Again I make this point. There is discrimination in the employment market for BMEs. More than enough evidence.
Why do people think football is any different?
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